S.W. Johnson's Great Eastern Railway and S&DJR 0-6-0s and 0-4-4Ts

[Compound2632]

Many thanks - I would not doubt the word of Braithewaite and Tee but it is good to have the at least circumstantial evidence of the drawing and photographic history. 

 

I have made a correction to my post about the 1102 Class - William Kirtley, Derby Works manager and subsequently Locomotive, Carriage & Wagon Superintendent of the LCDR and consultant to the Hull & Barnsley, was Matthew Kirtley's nephew, not brother. His father, Thomas, was Matthew's elder brother; they had both been enginemen on the Liverpool & Manchester. Thomas was Locomotive Superintendent of the North Midland Railway at the time of the amalgamation but had to take a subordinate position to his brother, He was appointed Locomotive Superintendent of the LB&SCR in 1847 and was all set for a glittering career that could well have queered Stroudley's, but he died a few months later, aged only 36.

[Crimson Rambler]

One small correction if I may – and its one I regularly used to get wrong when he was alive! There’s only one 'e' in Btraithwaite but two in Tee!

 

As an aside, I think we often overlook the contribution Robert Billington made to Midland (and by default S&DR) locomotives. From November 1874 until January 1890 he was SWJ’s chief locomotive draughtsman – Head Draughtsman he was originally termed. He was the man who interpreted SWJ’s requirements, delegated the work to the various draughtsmen and would have been largely responsible for the finished design together with whatever input the Master made. Thus, during those 15 years he took the ‘rough SWJ’ design such as the Class A 0-6-0T or the 0-6-0s, 4-4-0 and 0-4-4T produced at Stratford and refined them in accordance with SWJ’s wishes into the classic Johnson designs. After all the first of the 4-2-2s with that delightful ‘one-piece’ chimney appeared in the closing hours of his watch. He also would have been responsible for the various rebuilds applied to Kirtley engines.

 

One can idly speculate how Johnson designs might have panned out had W M Smith who was at Stratford with SWJ had not gone to Japan in 1874 and instead joined him in Derby.

 

We might surmize that Thomas Iveson, during his ten years that followed RB’s departure largely refined, honed and where necessary enlarged the existing SWJ designs. His one major piece was the 2606 Class was in effect a 60 Class fitted with a Belpaire boiler. By then J W Smith (W M Smith’s son) had joined the Derby team as a draughtsman arriving I understand when SWJ wanted to adopt Smith piston valves. Following TI’s retirement JWS became Chief Locomotive Drauightsman and the Johnson Edwardian image had its full flowering with the big 4-4-0s.

 

Crimson Rambler

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Spelling corrections: I've been dabbling in Brighton matters lately, so it's been rammed home to me that it's Billinton with no g!

 

Given the old Edinburgh & Glasgow connection between Johnson, Stroudley, and Drummond, I expect Billinton found Brighton a home from home. I wonder if he was appointed on Stroudley's deathbed recommendation? I do wonder too, under what circumstances he met his wife, a Polish lady née Butzkopfski, from whom young Lawson Billinton got his middle name. What with William Kirtley at Longhenge and later James Clayton at Ashford, the Derby influence runs deep in the southern companies.

 

As to J.W. Smith, he moved to Gorton not long after Johnson's retirement - I imagine things may have got a bit awkward with Deeley designing-out the Smith patent features of the compounds to avoid paying royalties to W.M. Smith's executors. Robinson's first compound atlantics had come out before Smith got to Gorton but I do feel that they are the logical next step from the Smith-Johnson compounds, as well as having some cosmetic similarities. Robinson was a Swindon man but quite a few of his engines were built over the wall at Beyer, Peacock & Co., including the first atlantics and the second batch of fish engines, with which the atlantics had much in common; the first batch having been built by Neilson...

 

Kick one and they all limp!

Edited October 19, 2019 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

Talking of Compounds and stuff, I came across this poster, and this is as good a place as any, so...  it’s done to celebrate the 5000th mile ceremony held in 1906 at Nagoya, that being the degree to which the national network had expanded. It seems the Japanese designers lifted the image as “representing a relatively new locomotive marvel of the day” (sic) there weren’t any actually running there.

[Compound2632]

Walter Mackersie Smith evidently made a lasting impression in Japan!

 

Reading his potted biography on Grace's Guide, I spotted two things I've missed: that he was also on the Edinburgh & Glasgow with Johnson; and that he was credited with the invention of firebox cross water tubes, a feature usually associated with ... James Johnson's father-in-law:

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Compound2632

[Crimson Rambler]

Spelling names was never my strong point!!

 

Billinton was indeed recomended to the LBSC board by Stroudley sometime before he died. RB had been S's Head Draughtsman - appointed in late 1872. The two engineers enjoyed a deep friendship. Indeed it appears Stroudley persuaded Billinton to go to Derby. Of course Stroudly, SWJ, Drummond and as you point out WMS were all at Cowlairs together in the early 1860s. SWJ as Loco Superintendent, Stroudley as Works Manager, one of the foremen was a young Dugald Drummond. I guess WMS was a draughtsman (carriage or loco?). He went with SWJ to Stratford in 1866 as the GER's carriage & waggon designer.

 

Before he joined SWJ on the E&G he had spent 1½ years at Neilsons!

 

I read in an I Loco E paper that Drummond had to pay royalties to W M Smith for use of cross tubes. Whether that is true or not I don't know - it might be something to explore sometime. However WMS did hold British patent 6118 of 1897. This shewed several arrangements of tubes one of which (or something very similar to it) was fitted to NER No 1619 – his three-cylinder compound that became the prototype for the Midland ones.

 

WMS was very highly thought of in Japan I believe he was given an award by the emperor (but not personally!). He arrived in Japan in 1874 and was appointed the first Loco Superintendent/CME of the Imperial Government Railways at Kobe. He also instructed engineering students. He returned to Britain in 1883.

 

I'm far from being alone in thinking that Japanese locomotive representation Northroader has posted has more than a passing resemblence to a Midland/Smith/Johnson Compound. Certainly more in my view than Smith's later pair of 4-cylinder componds for the NER.

 

The interconnections between nineteenth century locomotive engineers, their working colleagues/railways and their families is quite fascinating. Many years ago, I thought about producing a sort of ‘family tree’ to illustrate the various connexions as I learned them but gave up – this was long before I could use a computer drawing package. I couldn’t determine a layout that would work which would enable the inevitable changes to be made without massive redrawing.  

 

Crimson Rambler

[Compound2632]

Thanks, Mods, for moving this topic - it had started as a "UK Prototype question" but I felt it had outgrown that category and would be more at home here in "Pre-Grouping".

[Asterix2012]

I have just found this thread and I have a question about the Vulcan Foundry built SDJR Scotties 

 

Were the frames and boiler  the same as those used on the 1377 class?

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

I have just found this thread and I have a question about the Vulcan Foundry built SDJR Scotties 

 

Were the frames and boiler  the same as those used on the 1377 class?

 

I let this topic languish and never got onto a discussion of the 0-4-4Ts.

 

Now, for the Scotties, I'm looking at several different pages in both D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973) and S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002) at once...

 

The Neilson-built Scotties were, as I understand it, like the 1102 Class in their details, whereas the Vulcan-built Scotties were like the 1377 Class; this is notwithstanding that both Neilson and Vulcan had built batches of the 1102 Class and the 1377 Class were mostly built at Derby, Vulcan only building the last batch ordered in late 1891, the year after their last  batch of Scotties. The principal difference, according to Bradley & Milton, was in the arrangement of the motion:

 

"The reversing lever rotated through 33° as against 38½° on the earlier series which had the reversing-shaft 2 in and the reversing-rod 4 in higher. This feature made Nos. 33 to 38 [the Vulcan engines] readily distinguishable when viewed from the right, since like the Midland the Somerset & Dorset drove from that side." [B&M p. 116]

 

I believe I am correct in saying that all these engines, Midland and Joint, had Johnson's "A" boiler, with 10 ft barrel and 5 ft firebox; however, there were variations in the number of tubes fitted to the boilers as supplied, and also to replacement boilers built later. There is a discrepancy between Summerson, who quotes a grate are of 14.5 sq ft for all the Midland engines, and Bradley & Milton, who give 15 sq ft for the Joint engines.

 

As to frames, I am unsure but I think there must be differences between the 1377 and 1102 frames, to accommodate the difference in motion. In any case the frames of the Scotties would be different at the hind end from those of the tank engines. Maybe @Crimson Rambler and / or @Dave Hunt can comment on this?

[Compound2632]

It's interesting that the nickname Scottie stuck although the majority of the class were Lancastrian. 

[queensquare]

Nice to see this thread reactivated . A Scottie is high on my list of locos I still need to build for Bath.

 

Jerry

[Izzy]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I let this topic languish and never got onto a discussion of the 0-4-4Ts.

 

Sorry if this is a distraction but have you seen this small book by Geoff Pember? This is a copy he gave me (and signed it lucky me) and deals with the first Johnson GER 0-4-4T, the 134's. Not much, just a couple of pages with drawings and tables later but quite interesting. I hadn't quite realised he was the originator of outside tank 0-4-4T's, all the previous being well types etc.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I can scan and send you them via PM if it's of any interest to you.

 

Bob

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Sorry if this is a distraction but have you seen this small book by Geoff Pember?

 

Not at all - nothing like a good distraction!

 

I had scans of the drawings reproduced there from @Edwardian around the time I started this topic - from a different publication I believe but the same drawings. The table of dimensions would be very useful; it's the dimensions you can't see on a drawing that will say more about how much relationship there is between the 134 Class and the first of Johnson's Midland 0-4-4Ts, and the Avonsides which came very early on in the development sequence.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Compound2632
typo.

[Edwardian]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Not at all - nothing like a good distraction!

 

I had scans of the drawings reproduced there from @Edwardian around the time I started this topic - from a different publication I believe but the same drawings. The table of dimensions would be very useful; it's the dimensions you can't see on a drawing that will say more about how much relationship there is between the 134 Class and the first of Johnson's Midland 0-4-4Ts, and the Avonsides which came very early on in the development sequence.

 

Ask and ye shall receive ...