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Re-positioning stock at a terminal station


imt
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This is a "proper procedure" question when considering model design for a terminal station with ECS sidings or the need to release locos.  A "Minories" style terminal would bring up the picture for discussion.  Now I know that the original idea for such a station was that it was suburban services largely tank engine operated.  Forgetting that for the moment, we now have moved to largely DMU/EMU operation but some loco hauling of carriages too.  Next door to the station are some Carriage Sidings.

 

See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130407-great-eastern-based-emu-terminus/.

 

This is another person's thread, it has just caught my imagination.  The OP probably knows the answer, I am an amateur in these matters.

 

To clean and return to service, stock needs to go to the carriage sidings and get put through a washer and internally brushed up.  So we have stock in a platform to move to a parallel platform or an area of sidings that is not directly accessible from the running lines - so we have the need to pull out onto a running line and then set back into either a head shunt or a siding.

 

We have an "in" line and an "out" line.  Most of the good quality models I have seen shunt using the "out" line - so set back onto the out line up (as far as the advanced starter at a maximum) and then set back into a new platform/siding.  My question is whether the "in" line could be used, with some "limit of shunt".

Edited by imt
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AFAIK, no reason not to shunt on the inbound line so long as the move is within station limits and does not pass into the section in rear. It helps if the outer home signals on the inbound line are far enough out that the shunt is beyond their clearing point.

 

The above assumes that there is block section of reasonable length between the station and the next box. If said box is close to the station (in order to work pointwork that outside the reach of the station box), and the signals are slotted, then things get more involved. At that point my knowledge fails, but instinct says that a right-road move between the two boxes is less disruptive than a wrong-road move.

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From my experience, many suburban trains didn't go to any sidings between arrival and departure, nor through the washer. They may have been shunted to a different platform by the station pilot, but that would be it. The outgoing loco would couple up, and off they would go again when the time was right. 

 

This could possibly be because, in those far off days, the stock rarely needed cleaning; as passengers didn't insist on carrying bottles of water everywhere, or eating take-aways on the train, or slurping cans of fizzy drink and/or plastic containers full of coffee every hour or so. Most of them even managed to keep their dirty shoes off the seats. 

 

Therefore apart from the large numbers of newspapers left on seats in rush hour (which were mostly read by the next group of passengers), and discarded cigarette ends (which tended to find their way underneath the seats) there was not bags of rubbish to clear after each journey. 

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Suburban stock generally only got cleaned internally once or at best, twice a day, either between the morning and afternoon peaks and/or overnight, and externally once a week.

 

If laying over for a while, the station pilot would shunt the set in order to release the incoming loco, then position it in whatever platform it was next booked to leave from. Otherwise the train loco would wait at the stop-blocks until the return working departed. A set laying over for say half an hour might get a quick sweep-out/tidy-up in the platform.

 

ECS workings to/from carriage sidings were generally concentrated around the beginnings and ends of the peaks. So, at the end of the morning rush hour, some sets not required during the day would be taken away, to be brought back later; but others would remain in platforms not required for off-peak services. This is when any day-time cleaning would take place.

 

In short, there wouldn't be a "standard move" after a train arrived, some sets would form outward workings straight away, some would linger a while before making a return journey and others stay for several hours until the next busy period.

 

Long distance trains were different, e.g. West of England trains arriving at Waterloo would be taken down to Clapham for cleaning before making the trip back west.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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It is very much an era dependent and type of train dependent question as things changed enormously during the 1960s not just because of DMY/EMU trains coming into wider use but also in the way loco hauled services were dealt with.  Generally, as already noted, suburban stock was simply turned round onto its next working either by using a changeover engine or. by doing a shunt release move to release the engine which had worked the train in - at most someone might go through the train with a broom.  Long distance services were usually worked out to carriage depots but by the late 1960s turnround cleaning (using a bit more kit than a broom) was being carried out at some termini as BR had firm;ly got hold of the idea that trains standing in carriage sidings, r going to/from them, during the day were not earning money.

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These days I notice that suburban stock is often simply cleared of any rubbish internally by someone walking through the train while it sits in the platform.

On many longer routes, there are now on-board cleaners who walk through the trains during the journey, often joining the train fifty miles or so before the final destination.

 

This means there is less to do at the end of the trip where turnaround timings are often tight. 

 

John

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On many longer routes, there are now on-board cleaners who walk through the trains during the journey, often joining the train fifty miles or so before the final destination.

 

This means there is less to do at the end of the trip where turnaround timings are often tight. 

 

John

 

The guard / train manager can frequently be seen doing this as well towards the end of journeys in Cornwall. 

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I think the OP question is more related which line approaching the station would be used to shunt the stock out of the platforms in a very general scenario.

 

I've queried similar in the past for a Minories inspired design and the general consensus was best practice used the departing line as a head shunt. The logic (in my head at least) went that there would be less interference with revenue earning services arriving if any shunt occurring is in the departing line, and the signaller is not likely to release a shunt move onto the departing line if a revenue earning service is about to leave. Plus the quantity and distance of 'home' signals from the signal box would (I suspect) be more complicated if the arriving line were used for shunting stock. The signalling experts are probably better to advise on that though.

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I think the OP question is more related which line approaching the station would be used to shunt the stock out of the platforms in a very general scenario.

I've queried similar in the past for a Minories inspired design and the general consensus was best practice used the departing line as a head shunt. The logic (in my head at least) went that there would be less interference with revenue earning services arriving if any shunt occurring is in the departing line, and the signaller is not likely to release a shunt move onto the departing line if a revenue earning service is about to leave. Plus the quantity and distance of 'home' signals from the signal box would (I suspect) be more complicated if the arriving line were used for shunting stock. The signalling experts are probably better to advise on that though.

That is what I meant to ask, however the other information is fascinating too. I get the "revenue earning" bit. That makes the answer much clearer - because I couldn't see a signalling reason why either line could not be used with the right safety margins.

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I think the OP question is more related which line approaching the station would be used to shunt the stock out of the platforms in a very general scenario.

 

I've queried similar in the past for a Minories inspired design and the general consensus was best practice used the departing line as a head shunt. The logic (in my head at least) went that there would be less interference with revenue earning services arriving if any shunt occurring is in the departing line, and the signaller is not likely to release a shunt move onto the departing line if a revenue earning service is about to leave. Plus the quantity and distance of 'home' signals from the signal box would (I suspect) be more complicated if the arriving line were used for shunting stock. The signalling experts are probably better to advise on that though.

 

Logically the best line to use is the departing line.  This means that any shunting move going towards, or possibly even into, the block section will enter the section travelling in the right direction on a line where running signals exist to control movements.

 

Shunting back onto an arriving line obviously isn't impossible but the Siganlman would almost inevitably have to block signal a Blocking Back movement and that could well hinder things at the signalbox in rear of the one controlling the terminus as well as potentially delaying arriving trains.  The movement would also be wholly under the control of shunting signals and would depend on observing a Limit of Shunt board as the limiting point for any movement and they could be more easily missed (although they shouldn't be!) than a nice obvious running signal.

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Cleaning would happen in the terminus on arrival, carriage cleaners would go through prior to next departure. Carriage washing would be done at a larger depot usually at end of day after services finish.

 

Only time trains would move to sidings would be say end of peak when they would be stabled until next working usually afternoon peak or at times when the service goes quiet.

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Also stations like Clacton tend to have units left stabled in the platforms as opposed to shunting to adjacent sidings. More to do with the changes to services and need for stock.

 

When we work the RHTT into there on an afternoon the platforms are full of Desirios and Dusty Bins waiting to head to London for the evening peak.

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