Urgent appeal for details and drawing of GWR No 34/35 Dean 044

[bertiedog]

A request for building a Dean No34/35 044 in 7mm has landed on the bench, and I can't find any net references to drawings or outlines. 

I am pretty sure it was covered in the Model Railway News in the late 1960's or early 1970's as I built several commercially in 4mm scale to what appeared to be a photocopy of an MRN style drawing.

 

I don't have an MRN collection to refer to, but are drawings in some other GWR reference book.

 

​Any help greatly appreciated ,

 

Stephen

 

[kevinlms]

It apparently appears in this book.

 

http://www.slightlybetterbooks.com/jnmaskelyne.html

[bertiedog]

It apparently appears in this book.

 

http://www.slightlybetterbooks.com/jnmaskelyne.html

Thanks for the reference, the drawing did look like the work of J. N. Maskelyne. now to trace the book or find which edition of the MRN it was published in.......anybody got any ideas?

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

It appears via the reference kindly supplied, by Kevin, that Amazon have dealers with stock, so problem is basically solved. The build is to use up wheels, motor and gearbox from an 060, but the wheels are the same size, and I happen to love open cab tank locos.

The 4 mm versions all had a pivoted chassis, it rocked to provide compensation and force the weight to be distributed to the drivers evenly. They sailed along over rough track without a murmur, and should do in 7 mm just as well.

The motor can remain hidden and the boiler stuffed with lead to give it a bit of grunt.

 many thanks,

 Stephen.

Edited April 13, 2018 by bertiedog

[Michael Edge]

The Maskelyne drawing, a Swindon frame arrangement, a weight diagram and some excellent photographs in Jim Russell's "Pictorial record of GW locomotives" p148/9 in my copy.

[hayfield]

You need Volume 1, found one for £8

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pictorial-Record-Great-Western-Engines/dp/0860933989/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1523605156&sr=8-2&keywords=Pictorial+record+of+great+western+engines

[bertiedog]

Just to save time till any books arrive, does anybody know from their copy what the wheel diameter of the drivers were?

It's sort of vital to be able to use the existing wheels or get castings on order Asap.

Exact spoke count does not really matter.

Also the overall length? and possibly the boiler diameter as well.

It's not a commercial build, just a build for a friend, and saving some time is important on this project.

Stephen

.

[hayfield]

Russell quotes the drivers as 4' drawing shows 12 spokes, bogie wheels 2'8"  coach wheels

 

smoke box front to cab 68 mm

boiler front to cab 57 mm

firebox front to cab 16mm

boiler diameter 16 mm

 

These are appx measurements from plan in book using a simple ruler

Edited April 13, 2018 by hayfield

[bertiedog]

Walsall Industries do the right type driving wheels in cast iron at 12 spokes and four foot diameter, and I might as well get the correct type as the castings are not too expensive at £5.00 each wheel before delivery.

 

The trailing wheels in the bogie are no problem, solid stainless steel bar, made in the lathe.

 

Do the quoted dimensions in mm refer to 4mm sizes or to another scale used in the book drawings?

Edit:

{resolved now as I have a copy of the drawing)

 

Stephen.

Edited April 13, 2018 by bertiedog

[Dunsignalling]

Drawing of No.34 by C.J. Freezer in the Railway Modeller for March 1968. 

 

John

[Edwardian]

Bertie Dog, you have a PM

[hayfield]

Also in Locomotives in outline GWR CJ Freezes Peco Publication

[bertiedog]

Drawing resolved now, the Maskelyne Drawing is the missing one from the 1970's that had stuck in the memory. More than enouth detail to work to, and cutting out basic parts can begin at once.

 

The chassis will have the drivers on a sub frame to allow them to rock to maintain full contact with the track. Also no pickups, the wheels return current direct minimising drag. The boiler can be stuffed with lead to give traction.

Enough space to hide the motor. and detail the open cab and crew on the footplate.

The 00 versions were amazingly powerful and smooth for a 044 locomotion.

 

Stephen..

[kevinlms]

You seem to be well sorted now. I didn't think a GWR loco would hide for long!

[DCB]

It appears via the reference kindly supplied, by Kevin, that Amazon have dealers with stock, so problem is basically solved. The build is to use up wheels, motor and gearbox from an 060, but the wheels are the same size, and I happen to love open cab tank locos.

The 4 mm versions all had a pivoted chassis, it rocked to provide compensation and force the weight to be distributed to the drivers evenly. They sailed along over rough track without a murmur, and should do in 7 mm just as well.

The motor can remain hidden and the boiler stuffed with lead to give it a bit of grunt.

 many thanks,

 Stephen.

Could you elaborate on the pivoted chassis?  It sounds intriguing, I could use a pivoted chassis to even out the haulage over the lumps and bumps on my layout for a 14XX and an M7 

[bertiedog]

Applies to all 044 or 440., the chassis has a sub frame added inside the frames rather like compensation beams, with bearings on the sub frame. It is allowed to pivot about the support bar or pivot points on the chassis. The axle holes in the chassis outer frame are enlarged or made oval..

The movement required is quite small, about 2/3mm max for 00. a bit more for 0 gauge .

 

 

The splashers may need careful checking that there is no fouling..

 

The arrangement ensures the drivers sit firmly on the track, with max traction weight applied. The rigid pivot gives a form of three point contact, which gives steady running without bothering with full springing. There is no set up required at all.

 

The pivots can be a tube or shouldered set screws or any equivalent. You can make the subframes independant, but it adds extra complexity and works well without. The locos run very much better, no weight distribution problems at all. It can run steady over quite bad track. and pull properly.

 

Stephen.

Edited April 13, 2018 by bertiedog

[Michael Edge]

I've found a photograph of a 7mm model of no.34 I built many years ago

 

 

I think these are the Walsall wheel castings mentioned above. I built this in my usual way for 0-4-4Ts, the driving wheels compensated with the bogie, leading wheels rigid. It was driven bu=y a large Escap motor mounted transversely in the tanks and spur gears to the axle. The most obvious deficiency was the huge space under the boiler where all the motion should have been but a crank axle would have made the drive rather difficult. I ran it for years on our club layout before it was eventually sold.

[bertiedog]

Nice example, I will leave non moving motion to fill the gap ahead of the gears in the firebox, a simple worm gear with the motor rigid to the sub chassis, about 30 to 1 should be OK with the small drivers involved. The motor is a Pittman seven pole, not coreless, and suits worm drive with home produced hobbed gears in a gear box cover.

There's the bunker for lead fill and most of the boiler and smokelbox.

 

i will cover the build over the next weeks on another posting. Thanks for the help, saved a lot of time and research.

 

Final thought, what was the livery on the Helston branch as built, was it lined then or plain with Indian red. Maskelyne and others saw them post WW1 in standard GWR green lined out livery without Indian red frames. Was the 1890's version lined or not?

 

I was once told they had no lining by an expert, but opinions differ..

 

Stephen.

[Michael Edge]

There are three photos in Jim Russell's book, all show this livery and the lining is visible.

[stevejjjexcov]

Hi the pivoted sub chassis you describe is it the same as Mallard chassis system? I have one of their bulldogs to build but no instructions. It seems to have a sub chassis but I have real idea how it works on my model

 

All the best stebe

[bertiedog]

Hi the pivoted sub chassis you describe is it the same as Mallard chassis system? I have one of their bulldogs to build but no instructions. It seems to have a sub chassis but I have real idea how it works on my model

 

All the best stebe

The  Mallard 4mm kits I built had solid chassis, but that was in the 1970's, and they may have changed the design in 7mm, more likely towards full beam compensation. some locos are easy to spring, but the 044 and 440 are awkward, especially on weight distribution outside the driven wheel base. The simple cross  pivot cures it all with a minimum of at least half the weight on the drivers and more with carefully placed ballast..The sub chassis also keeps the loco upright, governed by the track standard.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Has nobody any thoughts on period figures apart from AC Stadden? I did look at Aiden Cambell, but the figures are too modern or frankly some out of proportion if standing. His crouching or action figures are excellent.

 

Are there any other overlooked quality makers in metal.

 

Any replies on here or the build posting on RM web in 7mm locos,

Stephen.

[Michael Edge]

Hi the pivoted sub chassis you describe is it the same as Mallard chassis system? I have one of their bulldogs to build but no instructions. It seems to have a sub chassis but I have real idea how it works on my model

All the best stebe

The Mallard Claud Hamilton was designed like this but I didn't find that it worked very well.

[bertiedog]

The Mallard Claud Hamilton was designed like this but I didn't find that it worked very well.

     Knowing Mallard, the frames would be etched parts and far too thin for the job, the frames for No34 are 1.5mm thick brass, properly engineered not  in the slightest bit flimsy/ A Claud should not require such a chassis system, the problem is mainly with 044 types like M7 and O2 locos. It also works on 042 types like Gladstone, or the GWR 042.

    With LBSC Gladstones I made, the rear axle was solid to the frames and not only did the drivers pivot, it was fitted to allow pivoting across the frame as well, fully floating on a ball and socket. This ensured fantastically steady running at speed just like Gladstone, all without springing or complex set up.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

Does any body have a drawing they could scan or photograph of a Dean round top boiler back head for No 34, or any similar Dean type. My drawings cover Belpaire variants only.

Thanks

Stephen.