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Garethp8873

GWR Dean Goods in Wartime Black livery

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Recently I purchased an Oxford Rail BR Black Dean Goods with the intent of regressing it into the GWR Wartime Black livery.

 

Now here comes the Million Dollar question... does anyone know for definite if any of the family were painted into this livery or anywhere I can go for throw further enquiries? I just don't feel right putting on a random running number and saying that it went into GWR Wartime Black without backing it up with knowledge confirming it.

 

Garethp8873.

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I just don't feel right putting on a random running number and saying that it went into GWR Wartime Black without backing it up with knowledge confirming it.

 

However, if no one has any evidence to refute it... ;)

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I suspect a Dean Goods turned black quite quickly during WWII even if she started green.

 

I remember reading in one of my books (don't ask me which one, it was years ago) the apocrphal tale that, just after grouping, the MSWJR (IIRC) works were given a Dean Goods (I think) to repaint and indented for 20 gallons of paint. 2 gallons came back as Swindon's allowance for the class. The foreman lamented that he'd have to thin the paint so much that she'd turn black on the first firing and she did....

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Good news... just found a photo in the GWR Journal, P.302 of GWR 2323 in GWR Wartime Black. Maybe a photo took on the 23rd January 1948 but I can't complain...!!

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There is a whole chapter dedicated to the Dean Goods WD's in Jeremy Clements book "William Dean the greatest of them all" published by noodlebooks.

 

It is a mine of very useful information should you manage to read it.

Edited by bgman

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There is a whole chapter dedicated to the Dean Goods WD's in Jeremy Clements book "William Dean the greatest of them all" published by noodlebooks.

 

It is a mine of very useful information should you manage to read it.

 

Does it include information on GWR Wartime Black livery? Trying to cover all options :)

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Does it include information on GWR Wartime Black livery? Trying to cover all options :)

 

 

Sorry I'm not certain at the moment, I would have to read through and find out.

That said, there are numerous photographs of the locomotives in their altered states with Westinghouse pumps and pannier tanks as well as Standard Goods which received some cab / minor alterations that appear to have been painted in black, although being in B & W it can be difficult to tell naturally.

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Does it include information on GWR Wartime Black livery? Trying to cover all options :)

 

I have just read on page 127 Chapter 7 - quote- " The WD livery was initially plain dull black; GWR number plates were removed from the initial contingent and the WD numbers painted in dull yellow or white figures on the cab side. " 

 

Hope this helps.

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I think there are some crossed wires on this thread.

 

Due to the Dean Goods' longevity it saw both World Wars:

 

 

In  14-18 one black  livery was applied for those engines headed for France (and beyond).  They became the "property" of the War Department.  Those which came back to the UK went back into GWR service and livery.

 

 

 

In 39-45, many GWR engines got an all over coat of unlined black as a cost/resources measure.  They remained in UK as GWR engines. With GWR class numbers.

 

 

108 Dean Goods got requisitioned for WD service in WW2.  Like WW1, they got a black paint job, WD numbers and some got pannier tanks, and Westinghouse brakes .

Edited by M.I.B

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And to answer the OP post:

 

During WW2, most other classes had engines which were painted black, except Kings:  

 

Castles Halls, Granges, Manors, Stars, Saints, Moguls, panniers   photos of all of those have been on  RMWeb in the last few years in some post of other.

 

There were even two versions of Halls in black:  "New" un named engines were outshopped in black in the 40s ( with no side windows) , and "older" named Halls which went in for a deep shop, came out back with window shutters and black paint.

 

 

So it's almost guaranteed that some lowly workhouses like Dean Goods were also painted this way.  But as for which ones???????????????????

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I think there are some crossed wires on this thread.

 

Due to the Dean Goods' longevity it saw both World Wars:

 

 

In  14-18 one black  livery was applied for those engines headed for France (and beyond).  They became the "property" of the War Department.  Those which came back to the UK went back into GWR service and livery.

 

 

 

In 39-45, many GWR engines got an all over coat of unlined black as a cost/resources measure.  They remained in UK as GWR engines. With GWR class numbers.

 

 

108 Dean Goods got requisitioned for WD service in WW2.  Like WW1, they got a black paint job, WD numbers and some got pannier tanks, and Westinghouse brakes .

 

 

If you get the opportunity to read Jeremy Clements book " WILLIAM DEAN The greatest of them all " he has documented the Dean Goods throughout its life and is well worth reading.

 

G

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And to answer the OP post:

 

During WW2, most other classes had engines which were painted black, except Kings:  

 

Castles Halls, Granges, Manors, Stars, Saints, Moguls, panniers   photos of all of those have been on  RMWeb in the last few years in some post of other.

 

There were even two versions of Halls in black:  "New" un named engines were outshopped in black in the 40s ( with no side windows) , and "older" named Halls which went in for a deep shop, came out back with window shutters and black paint.

 

 

So it's almost guaranteed that some lowly workhouses like Dean Goods were also painted this way.  But as for which ones???????????????????

Hi All,

 

The Castles were mostly spared the black paint job. Evidence suggests that there were only two so treated. The information is in “The Book of the Castles”.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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Hi All,

 

The Castles were mostly spared the black paint job. Evidence suggests that there were only two so treated. The information is in “The Book of the Castles”.

 

All the best,

 

Castle

As I’m away from home and can’t check my copy, does it say how long they stayed black?

 

A black castle would be mighty tempting!

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Hi Rich,

 

Sorry, got distracted! No idea how long they stayed black but the engines concerned were No. 5001 Llandovery Castle and No. 5018 St Mawes Castle. I don't see it as being unreasonable that the repaint didn't happen until 1947 even if it didn't. I want to see you model a black Castle!

 

Seriously though, looking at repair histories, No. 5001 was in and out of Swindon post hostilities (bit of a lemon at that time) so I wouldn't be surprised if it got a repaint pretty swiftly. No. 5018 on the other hand had an intermediate overhaul (repainting not usually done at this time although a black Castle may have been too much to ignore!) in 5/46 and a general overhaul in 2/48 so she is your safest bet! Even if it only lasted until that intermediate repair its got to be close enough surely?!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

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As I’m away from home and can’t check my copy, does it say how long they stayed black?

 

A black castle would be mighty tempting!

 

I have a black St Mawes, but cannot find any photos of it anywhere.

 

And I'm out in the Middle East  so I can't pop up into the loft........  it's probably hotter in my loft than it is out here!

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Hi Rich,

 

Sorry, got distracted! No idea how long they stayed black but the engines concerned were No. 5001 Llandovery Castle and No. 5018 St Mawes Castle. I don't see it as being unreasonable that the repaint didn't happen until 1947 even if it didn't. I want to see you model a black Castle!

 

Seriously though, looking at repair histories, No. 5001 was in and out of Swindon post hostilities (bit of a lemon at that time) so I wouldn't be surprised if it got a repaint pretty swiftly. No. 5018 on the other hand had an intermediate overhaul (repainting not usually done at this time although a black Castle may have been too much to ignore!) in 5/46 and a general overhaul in 2/48 so she is your safest bet! Even if it only lasted until that intermediate repair its got to be close enough surely?!

 

All the best,

 

Castle

I think that I will add 5001 onto my to do list, although I really ought to get the layout a lot more complete before I spend even more on non critical locos.....

I really want to do A1 at some point, while 5091 is currently at the top of the list if I ever manage to find a photo of it in 1947. It was reported that the loco had swapped its 3500gl oil tender for a 4000gl in 47. More interestingly GWRJ no 7 reports the same loco as having a black tender in 1947. It never made sense to me as I always figured that the tender would have gained a coat of green paint when converted to oil burning. Hence wanting a photo to verify...

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I have just glued the plates onto the loco so am able to weather it. However does anyone know what lettering should be applied to the tender. The photo seems to show it in plain black but it is so grainy it's hard to be sure. Also the photo seems too early for GWR (or is it) - Can anyone help please,

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All painting after 1942 was in unlined black except for Castles and Kings which retained green but without lining (there were exceptions from the official line). The circular monogram disappeared that year, replaced by G Crest W on the more important classes and G   W   R on the rest. You will have to dig into photos for suitable running numbers, but any Dean Goods would have looked black or at least well grimy if it had escaped a repaint during 1942-45. The war years were a particularly busy, difficult and short staffed period in their history.  

Edited by coachmann

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I too bought the Oxford Rail Dean with a view to recreating 2550 shown here just before WW2 in black

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1785.htm

 

sadly the project is on hold as I have put the plates up safe somewhere!

 

I'm sure in The Big Four In Colour by Jenkinson that it says it's green. I think you can just see GREAT WESTERN on the tender on the proper photo.

 

The photo is dated February 1939 so before wartime. It's doubtful that it received GWR wartime black as it went to the ROD before the black livery was applied.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Four-Colour-1935-50/dp/0906899621

 

 

 

Jason

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Potentially found a GWR Dean Goods in Wartime Black livery; GWR 2538 on P52 of The Railway at Kidderminster in the 1940s.

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Potentially found a GWR Dean Goods in Wartime Black livery; GWR 2538 on P52 of The Railway at Kidderminster in the 1940s.

 
 
The GWR Wartime Black Dean Goods project is back on track. Several running numbers found following me purchasing the book William Dean and I hopefully will be able to soon confirm the running number to go onto the January purchased BR Black Dean Goods soon..
 
For those who are interested in following me, the following Dean Goods are known to have received GWR War Black.
 
2543 (April 1942)
2411 (July 1943)
2385 (October 1943)
2323 (November 1943)
2538 (March 1944)
2356 (Autumn 1944)
2343 (April 1944)
2483 (April 1946)

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The GWR Wartime Black Dean Goods project is back on track. Several running numbers found following me purchasing the book William Dean and I hopefully will be able to soon confirm the running number to go onto the January purchased BR Black Dean Goods soon..
 
For those who are interested in following me, the following Dean Goods are known to have received GWR War Black.
 
2543 (April 1942)
2411 (July 1943)
2385 (October 1943)
2323 (November 1943)
2538 (March 1944)
2356 (Autumn 1944)
2343 (April 1944)
2483 (April 1946)

 

 

If those dates are the time of locos receiving black, that April 1946 date is an anomaly as it is after the reversion to normal liveries which started mid 1945, other engines had already started to be painted back to green from wartime black by then.

 

Keith

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If those dates are the time of locos receiving black, that April 1946 date is an anomaly as it is after the reversion to normal liveries which started mid 1945, other engines had already started to be painted back to green from wartime black by then.

 

It was most probably April 1945. When deciphering hand-written records it is often difficult to distinguish between 5 and 6, whereas 2, 3 or 4 are unlikely to be mistaken as a 6. Once one person has misread it. and subsequently mis-recorded it in print, the error gets perpetuated and is assumed to be true.

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