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New crowdfunded project from Lococraft - LMS diesels 10000/10001


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Jeff in post 74 you extol the virtues of cheques etc and make the valid point that not everyone uses debit and credit cards.

 

BUT a lot of people DO USE debit and credit cards so why not accept all forms of payment? By restricting acceptable payment methods you are also restricting the number of potential customers of your product.

 

May I respectfully suggest that you also embrace modern payment methods. After all crowdfunding is a modern method so why shy away from debit and credit card? and also Paypal.

 

I know the card companies raise a percentage charge but that would be worth it if it brings in more business.

 

Colin

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Why​ not use one of the established crowdfunding methods for these things rather than sending money direct?  However much I might want a product, sending large sums of money to an unknown individual with unknown credentials - using a fake name - definitely gets the spider sense tingling.

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With respect to the calls to lock the thread I can see why they may be made but at present this is one of the few channels where those prospectively interested may be able to glean further information to make a decision. It's also potentially beneficial to Jeff if he can address any points raised and may give more of a positive outcome for all than if nothing is said at these early stages.

 

Although Jeff has replied to some questions I haven't seen any responses to the questions I posted about previous experience and knowledge of detail differences; these are basic questions which shouldn't be a problem to respond to.

 

I do not doubt for one second that Jeff is well intentioned with a genuine desire to see a positive outcome and that any funds received will be returned if the viable threshold is not reached (I do think deducting the cost of a stamp to return cheques a bit miserly in the wider context of the total amounts being talked about, almost as though not one penny of personal expenditure would be given). My concerns are about what happens further down the line if things do not go to plan (they never do so what contingency is factored into this?). I would imagine that an idea of costings has been given by the potential factory and that the project price has been based upon that given. But is the factory tied into that price already? I would doubt it given the knowledge of what others have to contend with. What if the initial CADs are not correct due to incomplete or incorrect information being supplied? Extra costs can occur at that stage. My earlier question about detail differences was relevant to this point; are they being designed and tooled for or would this involve further work later on? Have the factory given firm dates at which CAD, tooling, EP samples and production slots can take place. If so some projected timelines could be given but again it's unlikely to have committed to that at such an early stage.

 

Whilst the factory may have quoted a price experience shows that prices cannot be accurate until the CAD work has been completed so the factory fully understands what work is involved; if that remains bolted down there are still currency exchange variables which can happen (for seem reason they rarely seem to be favourable exchanges). Whilst Jeff has a perfect right to see a profit from the venture experience tells that these margins can be rapidly eroded by the scenarios explained above so is there sufficient contingency or a commitment to personally meet those additional costs? If not, would it be a case of coming back to investors to ask for more? I haven't seen any mention of personal capital investment from Jeff in this; is it solely crowdfunders' capital?

 

I am not against crowdfunding, I have pledged to a few (non-hobby) projects and without exception they have been delivered much later than any initial projections and from the comments down the line it would seem that any anticipated margins had evaporated. In one case the bloke didn't earn a penny out of it (in fact it cost him) and he didn't even have the money or time available to post the finished items out taking several months to do so utilising recycled packaging and paying postage from his day-job when he could.

 

Part of the reason I was asking about the CAD images earlier in the topic was that I was told that there was an intention to utilise design work that had been carried out for another 'manufacturer' with some amendments. This raises legal and ethical issues and seems at variance with the stated aim that it is designed from the ground-up from the Ivatt Society's drawings. So; are the costs based on new CAD work or adaption of existing works? If the latter is there any knowledge or adaptation of where there were inaccuracies in the previous drawings?

 

Nothing has been said about thresholds as yet; what are the targets in terms of models and how will any measurement against those targets be given. Anyone who does submit funds should have a reasonable expectation as to how far or close the project is off achieving the thresholds and whether it is likely to proceed. Further information on this may be useful in establishing whether it's even achievable, 100 units may be but a target of 10,000 would never be met.

 

Crowdfunding is risk and reward and we don't really know how large the risk is, how good the reward may be and how likely it is to happen. Desire for a degree of personal anonymity doesn't help where transparency can cultivate more confidence.

Hello Andy....if you have a moment, could you give me a call on the website number...thanks, Jeff

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Jeff in post 74 you extol the virtues of cheques etc and make the valid point that not everyone uses debit and credit cards.

 

BUT a lot of people DO USE debit and credit cards so why not accept all forms of payment? By restricting acceptable payment methods you are also restricting the number of potential customers of your product.

 

May I respectfully suggest that you also embrace modern payment methods. After all crowdfunding is a modern method so why shy away from debit and credit card? and also Paypal.

 

I know the card companies raise a percentage charge but that would be worth it if it brings in more business.

 

Colin

Hello Colin...its definitely something that we'll look at....however, a lot of people won't use cards because of the security issue, you'd be surprised at how many people won't use them...and looking at the news tonight, regarding TSB....I don't blame them.

Jeff

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Hello Colin...its definitely something that we'll look at....however, a lot of people won't use cards because of the security issue, you'd be surprised at how many people won't use them...and looking at the news tonight, regarding TSB....I don't blame them.

Jeff

 

 

 

Surprised......I'd be amazed if you could show me the majority don't use them.

 

Mind you I'd be wary of someone setting up a limited company, using a false name to publicise it, only using payment methods that give no guarantee to the funder and even charging for a stamp if it all goes t1ts up and the monies have to be returned. . . not that there is any guarantee that it would be returned.

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Hello Colin...its definitely something that we'll look at....however, a lot of people won't use cards because of the security issue, you'd be surprised at how many people won't use them...and looking at the news tonight, regarding TSB....I don't blame them.

Jeff

I do think that your reply displays an element of commercial naivety!!

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I'm no youngster - postal orders died out when I worked in banking, it's been so long since I've used a cheque that if we do have a chequebook I have no idea where it is stored and Building society cheques/bankers Drafts - I only remember them from buying cars before I used credit.

 

Plastic cards are now the mainstay of funds transfer plus electronic transfers from online banking, other forms of payment are actively discouraged or are subject to processing delays (going down the bank etc).

 

I really don't understand something that uses 21st century technology to promote itself for a 21st century purchasing scheme (crowdfunding) with 21st century CAD design uses 1960s payment methods?

 

Is there a reason other than the chaps down the local club like cheques and cash for not having a card payment option?

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Hello Andy....if you have a moment, could you give me a call on the website number...thanks, Jeff

Thanks to Jeff for his time this evening as we have had a chat for over an hour on the phone.

 

A really nice chap who has filled me in with a lot more of his personal background. We have discussed many aspects that I have questioned publicly on here such as the payment options, pseudonyms, technical details and I'll speak as I find and say that I believe Jeff is very well intentioned and had not realised how such decisions or actions could be construed. I gave a few examples in the context of payment methods and voiced the perspective that I think he is drastically limiting his chances of succeeding by not taking online payments and I believe he will be looking into this more. On pseudonyms I highlighted cases where I know people have operated anonymously where they have had prior convictions (literally) and Jeff can see how it could cause concerns. We discussed the information that I had been given about CAD sources and I feel assured that Jeff does know a lot more about detail differences and where inaccuracies lay in previous works. There is clearly an intent to try and try hard to make it succeed but I think (and he knows my comments can be brutal and blunt) that he has been, so far, listening to an echo chamber of contacts who say they don't do online payments, social media etc etc which ultimately, I feel, is limiting the chance of achieving the target quantities we discussed.

 

I hope Jeff can make some adjustments in approach and style for everyone's benefit.

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Hello Paul, do tell...I'm interested in your personal choice.

Jeff

Personally I would love to have the Lion prototype but I doubt it would sell enough - class 56 would also be a good option and not as yet on the radar of the company supplying large blue boxes.

 

As an aside what I don’t understand is how Heljan can proceed with a 121 DMU retailing at £450 whereas Dapol can promise a 122, which is similar for a price being offered at £250.

 

Have Dapol found a production method you could copy to keep costs down - £600 for a Co-Co diesel is very high albeit others are offering other similar products at similar prices.

 

Just a thought

 

Paul R

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Presumably Dapol has been able to share the CAD costs with its OO version and has reduced unit cost by committing to a much larger production run.

Very possibly but when you reailse they are producing MK1 coaches which are retailing at £170 or thereabouts and Heljans come in at £250 and both would have had design and tooling costs something doesn’t add up. Also the 122 has two motor bogies whereas Heljan has one.

 

We can’t know these costs since they are commercially sensitive and depend on different design and tooling methods but it does at least show that models don’t have to be that expensive

 

Regards

 

Paul R

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Evening all,

 

I acknowledge that I have been somewhat vocal on this thread - hopefully constructively - and with the exception of what my comments below, Im not intending to add anything further.  I think while there may be questions remaining, there is probably enough in this thread to allow people to make an informed decision without further query or criticism from me!

 

Surprisingly....bank/building society cheques are still very common....I use them all the time....never had a problem. It's possibly a generational thing that more, I know a few elderly chaps who only ever deal in cash...."Money talk's" as one of them quoted.

As stated previously.....If the project does not meet the required target, modellers will get their money returned, we are the only ones that will be disadvantaged.

 

Jeff

 

Jeff,

If I may comment on a couple of things.  I work with a small company that is turning over a six-figure sum every year.  Ok our average transaction is not in the £600 realm but out of thousands of online card transactions in the past four years, only 12 have been cheques, and 2 postal orders!  Those are accurate figures, not guesses.  When we give people the option of how to pay as soon as cheques are mentioned, they say oh no I dont bother with them these days! Also, I've just looked at my cheque book that last one was written in October 2013!

 

May I (respectfully) suggest suggest that you look at a client account from a bank or a solicitors.  Ok the latter may have a charge involved, but that way monies are held in trust - you can tell people that, and if the worst ever did happen, nobody can make any potential accusations of 'I didn't get my money back' stick.  Your working in good faith and positive principals that it all works, but also think about your reputation if it goes wrong - it only needs one wrong refund or missing envelope in the post, and you have problems.  A small extra cost may give piece of mind, if only to yourself.

 

 

Jeff in post 74 you extol the virtues of cheques etc and make the valid point that not everyone uses debit and credit cards.

BUT a lot of people DO USE debit and credit cards so why not accept all forms of payment? By restricting acceptable payment methods you are also restricting the number of potential customers of your product.

May I respectfully suggest that you also embrace modern payment methods. After all crowdfunding is a modern method so why shy away from debit and credit card? and also Paypal.

I know the card companies raise a percentage charge but that would be worth it if it brings in more business.

Colin

 

I can accept that adding Credit/Debit cards comes at a cost.  Extra web hosting costs to deal with SSL certificates, banking compliance if your taking over a specific amount, and if you go PayPal there are other fees.  However, I would totally agree that in today's world anyone that ignores social media and card payments is the equivalent to those who bought betamax rather than VHS!

 

Hello Colin...its definitely something that we'll look at....however, a lot of people won't use cards because of the security issue, you'd be surprised at how many people won't use them...and looking at the news tonight, regarding TSB....I don't blame them.

Jeff

 

Jeff,

One further comment on cheques - a conversation with our bank manager a few weeks back as part of our annual review (which went well I will add) the comment was past that they expected cheques to phased out of their personal current accounts within 18-24 months. Some people may use them, but it costs the banks processing charges, and once the level drops below a fixed point (which I'm guessing it has) it becomes too expensive for the banks to deal with - I used to work for HSBC so I do have some idea in this area.

 

Personally I would love to have the Lion prototype but I doubt it would sell enough - class 56 would also be a good option and not as yet on the radar of the company supplying large blue boxes.

As an aside what I don’t understand is how Heljan can proceed with a 121 DMU retailing at £450 whereas Dapol can promise a 122, which is similar for a price being offered at £250.

Have Dapol found a production method you could copy to keep costs down - £600 for a Co-Co diesel is very high albeit others are offering other similar products at similar prices.

Just a thought

Paul R

 

 

Paul,

I have no knowledge of the business plan and marketing strategy for Dapol or Heljan, but I have always thought Heljan have a different strategy to everyone else, and potentially a higher profit margin.  One of the Heljan guys said to me two years ago - we are a business, every decision, every model we make, is reviewed to say what was the return, was it quick enough.  I think Heljan look for a specific return - and that is probably why they have not gone down the road of DCC - it eats into that return, potentially with a feeling (or some research) that people would not pay more.  I also suspect (pure assumption on my part) that after the Falcon and Class 60 sales figures, they produce smaller runs now than they did 5-8 years back.  If a model sells out before launch they have an immediate 100% return on their investment and it creates a 'must get in quick' feeling in the market place which builds momentum for the next model.

 

Dapol I think build on their OO experience. And my feeling is they go for the premise of a smaller return per model, with a larger number of models produced.  They may well get the same kind of returns overall, but they have the marketing, retailers and experience to achieve decent sales.  They are also probably playing a game of pricing lower, and accepting a smaller return, in the expectation that once people are hooked, they will continue to buy future models, there-by increasing the market size and over time getting a bigger return on their investments.  Lets face it, the quality of the models are on a par if not streets ahead of Heljan, while Dapol's DCC sound / light options make the HJ models look outdated and overpriced - if that was their strategy before the 08 was announced, I think they've won - and proved they are in for the long term.

 

Sorry for going off topic with the last response!

 

Jeff/Graham/Lococraft whichever, I really do wish you well with the project. If the outcome is another O gauge RTR supplier that can be no bad thing.  But my personal view from reading your comments and those of Andy Y's following his discussion, is that (at this stage) it wouldn't be a project I would have the confidence in to invest - but I would encourage you to prove me wrong! Good luck.

 

Rich

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One further comment on cheques - a conversation with our bank manager a few weeks back as part of our annual review (which went well I will add) the comment was past that they expected cheques to phased out of their personal current accounts within 18-24 months. Some people may use them, but it costs the banks processing charges, and once the level drops below a fixed point (which I'm guessing it has) it becomes too expensive for the banks to deal with - I used to work for HSBC so I do have some idea in this area.

 

 

 

I'd ask your Bank Manager if he knows what he's talking about. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/frequently-asked-questions-on-the-closure-of-the-cheque-system

 

It's quite likely he wants to keep his branch costs down by not accepting them, but they are current, and here for the foreseeable future. The issue the banks have is that there are a large amount of transactions that cannot be carried out by modern methods and a cheque is the only way they could service that need (they did stop guaranteeing cheques a long time ago so the risk is entirely upon the customer)

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Thanks to Jeff for his time this evening as we have had a chat for over an hour on the phone.

 

A really nice chap who has filled me in with a lot more of his personal background. We have discussed many aspects that I have questioned publicly on here such as the payment options, pseudonyms, technical details and I'll speak as I find and say that I believe Jeff is very well intentioned and had not realised how such decisions or actions could be construed. I gave a few examples in the context of payment methods and voiced the perspective that I think he is drastically limiting his chances of succeeding by not taking online payments and I believe he will be looking into this more. On pseudonyms I highlighted cases where I know people have operated anonymously where they have had prior convictions (literally) and Jeff can see how it could cause concerns. We discussed the information that I had been given about CAD sources and I feel assured that Jeff does know a lot more about detail differences and where inaccuracies lay in previous works. There is clearly an intent to try and try hard to make it succeed but I think (and he knows my comments can be brutal and blunt) that he has been, so far, listening to an echo chamber of contacts who say they don't do online payments, social media etc etc which ultimately, I feel, is limiting the chance of achieving the target quantities we discussed.

 

I hope Jeff can make some adjustments in approach and style for everyone's benefit.

Your attitude is laudable Andy, but I still have a problem with a man who needs you to explain his business plans for him because every time he posts on his own more potential customers are alienated.

I would very politely suggest that you could be getting too involved with this venture.

If people invest money; and it goes bad after you appear to support it, your position may be quite uncomfortable.

Best,

John K

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I would very politely suggest that you could be getting too involved with this venture.

If people invest money; and it goes bad after you appear to support it, your position may be quite uncomfortable.

It wouldn't have been fair of me to not to talk to Jeff when a channel was opened; it wouldn't have been fair of me not to say what I thought having spoken to him. Having spoken to him I know more than I did and there is no recommendation made, just an additional perspective with a little more information. It's up to Jeff what he does do or doesn't do after our conversation and what people may think if any changes do happen.

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I'd ask your Bank Manager if he knows what he's talking about. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/frequently-asked-questions-on-the-closure-of-the-cheque-system

 

It's quite likely he wants to keep his branch costs down by not accepting them, but they are current, and here for the foreseeable future. The issue the banks have is that there are a large amount of transactions that cannot be carried out by modern methods and a cheque is the only way they could service that need (they did stop guaranteeing cheques a long time ago so the risk is entirely upon the customer)

My understanding, and hence my comment, was that he was purely relaying that banks decision on THEIR personal current accounts. Not the cheque processing system, business accounts or his specific branch, but more the product that financial brand wished to offer its customers across all their branches. Who knows whether he was right or wrong. I was purely relaying what we had been told to add some perspective.

 

Rich

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My understanding, and hence my comment, was that he was purely relaying that banks decision on THEIR personal current accounts. Not the cheque processing system, business accounts or his specific branch, but more the product that financial brand wished to offer its customers across all their branches. Who knows whether he was right or wrong. I was purely relaying what we had been told to add some perspective.

Rich

When we changed banks around a year ago we looked at a three different banks, two of them would provide a cheque book but only at the customers request. Only one of them issued a cheque book as a matter of policy. The use of cheques seems to be being phased out by stealth and while they may still be available their use is greatly decreased and decreasing.

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Try buying a house with a credit card!

Cheques will continue to be necessary for certain transactions but for most consumer situations (such as a model locomotive) electronic or plastic money is the popular way to go.

 

From Jeff's viewpoint, accepting modern and traditional means of payment would open his venture up yo those who prefer modern methods and also to those who prefer more traditional methods.

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What is the point in sending cheques back to the customer? Nothing stopping the customer cancelling the cheque at any time. My honest opinion, having read all this, is probably best to change the name, do the homework wrt numbers required to make it viable, (if at all) and start again, being far more straightforward (check the speling on the web site), and who else is involved, or is it a royal 'we'?

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