New crowdfunded project from Lococraft - LMS diesels 10000/10001

[MarshLane]

 One asks the obvious question, is he related to Laurie?

 

 Alan

 

 

Just to back up Andy Y - I've no connection with anyone involved in LocoCraft - but there is a post on a Facebook group that Nikki Wilkes (who is doing the Little Loco CAD design) has started with a link to the Lococraft website, on the premise that she was asked to "share the post".

 

I dont think this breaches any rules, but im sure Andy Y will remove it if it does. The following is a screen shot from the above post - its in the public domain on a group anyone can join, so I dont believe there's any issues with sharing, but I thought this was a better way than quoting.  I've blacked out one chaps name who asked the same question about Laurie, purely because I didn't feel it right to share his name about without asking him..

 

 

EDIT: Just realised one message was not shown in full...

 

 

Posted in the goodness of faith, just to share what the chap, who is apparently behind Lococraft, has said...

 

Rich

Edited April 23, 2018 by MarshLane

[chris p bacon]

Thanks Rich.

 

I must admit that I get very uneasy about the various 'crowdfunding' that comes up, and this one will be for some substantial payments.

 

Not that long ago there was a chap talking of producing a Quad-art in N and possibly OO with the possibility of it being crowdfunded, I was sceptical (I do admit to being a cynic)  but others were receptive to it.  After just a few posts he disappeared.  I know some have done it and it has worked,  but I don't think the average person realises what the risks are and how easy it is to lose a lot of money with nothing to show.

[MarshLane]

I’d agree with your comments Chris.

 

Personally I think crowdfunding is an option if it’s done right. This isn’t the place to discuss this, but for a new organisation, crowdfunding via an established platform like Kickstarter, brings additional costs, but some guarantee that if the target isn’t reached you will get money back. No guarantee if it is reached that you will ever get the product of course, but they way it all works gives some confidence and allows people to build reputations, which has to be the name of the game.

 

I think this chap, with all due respect to him, needs to expand on how things are going to work, rather than just putting a website up and expecting it to work. But it’s early days, we don’t know (for example) what coverage he may have agreed with magazines or the Gauge O Guild, what the business or marketing plan is, or whether there is any money being put up. Crowdfunding means you need to put a lot more info out there, just like investors putting money into a company, there is the due diligence and risk assessment to be done. Could that harm the project? Yes, but it’s a trade off to asking people to financially support you.

 

Speculation isn’t helpful, and the web is probably the worst place for it, but is inevitable unless people know more I guess. Time will tell, and I wish anyone well who has the courage to go into such things for our benefit, but I would certainly want to know a lot more before giving what in my view amounts to an un-guaranteed interest free loan!

 

I wonder what the business manager of the local bank would say if presented with what we currently know!

 

Rich

Edited April 23, 2018 by MarshLane

[woodenhead]

The big question is why the need for a pseudonym and then state his real name with a possibly jokey reference to his ex.

 

Is Graham Jones a known modeller?

 

It all looks too casual and if someone has gone as far as to hide their real name behind a limited company..........

Edited April 24, 2018 by woodenhead

[298]

I wonder if they are all aware that they are named as effectively "endorsing" the project, based on any advice that they may have knowingly or unknowingly given?

They might have said he's off his rocker or not to touch those prototypes with a bargepole, for all we know.

 

They do seem to be "Mantlepiece" models instead of anything useful that could Grace the average Milennial's newly discovered interest in O gauge layout....unless there is more profit to be made from a £600 diesel than an easy win £200 shunting loco that might be beaten to the market by a competitors loco.

[djparkins]

That's good a crowd funding project that doesn't even introduce who they are !!! If I was running that I would like my prospective customers at the very least know who I am running this project, especially when you are asking people to handover £600.

 

Come on gents at least do the prospective punter a service of knowing who you are ...... not just having to ring a mobile number first.

 

Good luck with the venture anyway

 

Craig.

 

I agree totally.

 

Interest rates are still quite low - if he believes in the project that much, maybe he should take out a small second mortage on his house to get started as a 7mm manufacturer. That is what I did in 1979.

 

IMHO you should all stick to buying models that are presented to you as ready to purchase. A product that someone has had the 'b*!lls' and the faith in to finance and bring to market for themselves.

 

There is some of this crowd-funding creeping into the model aircraft business as well. One such project is for a kit of an RAF glider. Now I would very much like one of these models, but I wouldn't go near the project as I know the person behind it to be something of a 'dreamer'. How do I know this? I ended up buying his first failed kit range!

 

DJP/MMP

Edited April 24, 2018 by djparkins

[scottystitch]

I agree totally.

 

Interest rates are still quite low - if he believes in the project that much, maybe he should take out a small second mortage on his house to get started as a 7mm manufacturer. That is what I did in 1979.

 

IMHO you should all stick to buying models that are presented to you as ready to purchase. A product that someone has had the 'b*!lls' and the faith in to finance and bring to market for themselves.

 

There is some of this crowd-funding creeping into the model aircraft business as well. One such project is for a kit of an RAF glider. Now I would very much like one of these models, but I wouldn't go near the project as I know the person behind it to be something of a 'dreamer'. How do I know this? I ended up buying his first failed kit range!

 

DJP/MMP

OT, I know, but is that an RC model or a plastic scale model?

[djparkins]

OT, I know, but is that an RC model or a plastic scale model?

 

Plastic injection. Why?

[scottystitch]

Plastic injection. Why?

Thanks

 

I just wondered. I hadn't realised crowdfunding had reached that sector.

[midlandsbloke]

Good evening folks.

Apologies for the late post here guys.

Allow me to reveal all......my name as pointed out by earlier posts is indeed Jeff Lynch, and I have established Lococraft as depicted on the webpage, indeed, if I use Facebook, I assume the pseudonym of  Graham Jones, purely for the simple reason I do not wish my ex wife to pry into my personal life, if you all knew her, you'd completely understand!!!  Ok....now that the personal information is out of the way, I have established Lococraft to try and fill a void in the ready to run market.

I have to say that after seeing some of the superb work that modellers have performed in bringing O gauge to life, I feel that I'd like to help supply locomotives that are high on the "Wish list" of O gauge modellers, being an O gauge  modeller myself, how good would it be to have quality loco's that YOU want, ready to go, straight out of the box?

Although the Lococraft webpage has only been up a day or so......and it still needs tweaking.....we would love to hear from you which loco's, whether it's steam  diesel or electric, which ones would be high on you're wish list, as we would certainly give everything a long look...however, I think DHP1 wouldn't be in high demand though!

There have been one or two comments here that we are working with others/or using moulds and designs from another company...this is absolutely untrue, Lococraft are only working with the Ivatt re-creation society, as they are providing technical advice, photograph's, and more importantly, the original design drawings as prepared by the LMS. This is a completely new ground up project in producing quality finescale,  O gauge models of 10000 and 10001.

If you have wish to know more, than please e-mail us or call  on the number that's on the website....and happy modelling folk's.

 

Jeff.

[Andy Y]

There have been one or two comments here that we are working with others/or using moulds and designs from another company...this is absolutely untrue, Lococraft are only working with the Ivatt re-creation society, as they are providing technical advice, photograph's, and more importantly, the original design drawings as prepared by the LMS. This is a completely new ground up project

Hello Jeff, a first question if I may?

 

Has the bogie CAD image shown on your website been derived from this primary source reference material? If not, what is its source please?

[81A Oldoak]

 

...how good would it be to have quality loco's that YOU want, ready to go, straight out of the box?

 

Some of us have been doing this for the last eight years. Ixion On30 Coffeepot Railmotor, Ixion Manning Wardle H Class 0-4-0ST, Ixion Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST Contractor's Loco, Ixion Fowler 0-4-0DM, Minerva Peckett E Class 0-4-0ST, Kerr Stuart Victory Class 0-6-0T, GWR 57XX/8750 0-6-0PT (welded and riveted tanks), GWR Iron Mink Van, GWR Gunpowder Van and in development, the Manning Wardle K Class 0-6-0ST. And all delivered without long delays after announcement and all done with our own money. 

 

CK

[PMP]

Hello Jeff, a first question if I may?

Has the bogie CAD image shown on your website been derived from this primary source reference material? If not, what is its source please?

 

From Lococraft’s web site. The far side frame of the bogie is shown fitted to the bogie. Looking at the LMS 10000 image, this clearly isn’t a CAD showing an LMS twin bogie. I don’t recognise it as a British outline bogie, if I’m correct, there’s an obvious question to be asked...

[midlandsbloke]

Hello everybody.

Ok guys, and thanks for the question, and to answer that question about the bogie CAD design, this is the standard drive unit that the company have designed to power all their loco's with the CO-Co wheel arrangement, which they supply to business's around the globe, it's a good, robust, proven design, its a standard component  that they fit.

Just to change the subject slightly chap's, I'm thinking of looking into having a replacement gear train unit produced en masse, as a replacement for Co-Co loco's that come in large blue box's, Not only would the gears be more robust, possibly even brass, but it would also convert the bogie to an all axle drive unit, I'm in the fortunate position of living near a very good toolmaker who would help with the design and production. Currently, this is only at the idea stage........so you're thoughts are most welcome on this subject.

Regarding the Lococraft page.....as crowdfunding is becoming more popular, it seems a better way to go, HOWEVER, let me re-assure everybody, IF THE PROJECT DOES NOT PROCEED, EVERYBODY WILL HAVE ALL MONIES PAID RETURNED FORTHWITH.........however gents, the only thing it will cost is the price of an envelope and a first class stamp, to return your money.

Many thanks to those who have wished success to Lococraft.

Regards 

 

Jeff

 

[midlandsbloke]

I’d agree with your comments Chris.

 

Personally I think crowdfunding is an option if it’s done right. This isn’t the place to discuss this, but for a new organisation, crowdfunding via an established platform like Kickstarter, brings additional costs, but some guarantee that if the target isn’t reached you will get money back. No guarantee if it is reached that you will ever get the product of course, but they way it all works gives some confidence and allows people to build reputations, which has to be the name of the game.

 

I think this chap, with all due respect to him, needs to expand on how things are going to work, rather than just putting a website up and expecting it to work. But it’s early days, we don’t know (for example) what coverage he may have agreed with magazines or the Gauge O Guild, what the business or marketing plan is, or whether there is any money being put up. Crowdfunding means you need to put a lot more info out there, just like investors putting money into a company, there is the due diligence and risk assessment to be done. Could that harm the project? Yes, but it’s a trade off to asking people to financially support you.

 

Speculation isn’t helpful, and the web is probably the worst place for it, but is inevitable unless people know more I guess. Time will tell, and I wish anyone well who has the courage to go into such things for our benefit, but I would certainly want to know a lot more before giving what in my view amounts to an un-guaranteed interest free loan!

 

I wonder what the business manager of the local bank would say if presented with what we currently know!

 

Rich

Hello Rich

And I fully understand your cautious approach to what we are proposing regarding the crowdfunding project, however, I agree with you when you say that crowdfunding has to be done correctly....and speculation certainly doesn't help matters, however, bear with me on this one....its all new territory...and a huge learning curve, but one I'm enjoying...sometimes challenging, but never stressful.

Lococraft is a bona fide company, and one that wishes to engage with modellers to develope a broad product range, to the satisfaction of all.

However, it is also understood that with increased living costs, and people having less disposable income....that crowdfunding allows modellers to buy models without taking a big hit in their bank account.....smaller hits over a longer period of time, surely that makes thing's easier for all concerned.

Indeed, after having a two hour conversation with a very well respected railway magazine editor just this evening, I have decided to extend the first payment dates by a further month, so the website will be adjusted accordingly.

The reason for this adjustment is twofold...simply put, the summer holidays are not far away, and holidays are not cheap when mum, dad and the kids wish to go away for a nice break....then the next costly time is Christmas....and we all eat, drink, and spend too much, don't we. 

So for that reason we are altering the dates for the payments, hopefully this will be more accomodating for modellers.

O gauge should not be a preserve for the well off.....O gauge should be within the reach of all modellers.

Any thoughts would be most welcome Rich.

 

Thanks.

 

Jeff

[Andy Y]

Jeff, I can see a lot of emotive streams of consciousness going on but I'd like to ask some background information.

 

What experience do you have in managing such projects both in terms of design and financial control? It would be comforting for anyone to establish credentials before committing to 'invest' substantial sums.

 

It's a large project with potentially a lot of detail design pitfalls as there are many minor variations between the two locomotives and through their lives. What detail differences will be catered for in the tooling design process and what options will the customer have or is it a model which is only specifically correct for one of the locomotives at a specific point in time or an amalgam of differences?

[MarshLane]

O gauge should not be a preserve for the well off.....O gauge should be within the reach of all modellers.

Any thoughts would be most welcome Rich.

 

Thanks.

 

Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Firstly, having posted your intro - thank you for taking the time to reply to my comments earlier.

 

In many ways I cannot fault your comments and I totally agree that O Gauge should (like N and OO) be available to as many as possible. However, I believe (and this is only my personal opinion) that there is a critical point being missed.

 

It is admirable to have the view that you have, but in today’s world there are several major problems. Firstly, money is hard won, so people are usually cautious at letting go of it. Secondly, many schemes have promised and then failed to deliver for a number of reasons, and thirdly crowdfunding while a great principal tries to convince everyone this is a way of doing things, but gives no guarantees at all.

 

I am not, in anyway assuming, suggesting or trying to imply that this project will fail to deliver, but people need to be able to judge whether it is a risk worth taking. I therefore think you need to establish credibility and a reputation. This is not asking people to stump up £20 for a wagon, it is a serious amount of money, and I note that none of the answers have mentioned what the funding plan is, ie is it all crowdfunded or has the business, it’s owners or backers put up funds.

 

My feeling is that you really need to think hard about what is proposed and how it is communicated - your background, the level that the models are going to (ie is this a Heljan standard, or are you pushing the boundaries like Little Loco Company), who is doing the CAD design, what the skills are of those involved, what the production plan and backup plans are, for example. I said earlier crowdfunding can work, but it requires much more information to be available in the public domain, akin to a business investor going through the books.

 

It seems to me, with no disrespect intended, that the public feeling is you have appeared on the scene asking for money to produce a model, but nobody knows you, the company is new so has no track record, the company is handling the crowdfunding, rather than a funding platform like Kickstarter, so there are no guarantees of a refund if the project failed to meet its targets. There’s no credit card option that gives people some security. Have you spoken to or involved the Gauge O Guild? There are far more questions than answers, and the fact that within a couple of days of launching, you have amended dates after one conversation would make me question how much thought and planning has gone into things?

 

I know the above may sound negative and I apologise for that. I hope you succeed in your aims, but you asked for a view. I shall be interested to read the response, and I also have to say I would totally agree with all the questions raised by Andy Y. Andy and his fellow colleagues across all modelling magazines may be some of your best supporters if you can convince them of the soundness of the project, and that it is viable and well thought through.

 

Rich

[Andy Y]

Jeff, you reported the post giving the domain registration details requesting its removal.

 

This is information which is in the public domain - https://www.nominet.uk/whois/?query=lococraft.co.uk#whois-results; as the registrant of the domain you could have chosen to have the data made private through Nominet via the registrar so you cannot say you will blame this person if you got burgled.

[Earl of Pembroke]

This seems to be a very rum way to do business.  Your real name is Jeff Lynch, which is how you are registered as a director on Companies House. Your false name is Graham Jones. Graham Jones is the real name of the proprietor of the model railway firm NMRS Models located in Northampton just over one hour's drive from your registered and service addresses. NMRS Models specialises in O Gauge and does some Z Gauge. Hopefully, there will be no confusion, but it may be helpful for you to state clearly that you have no connection with NMRS Models. 

 

Charles Trelawney

[djparkins]

Jeff, you reported the post giving the domain registration details requesting its removal.

 

This is information which is in the public domain - https://www.nominet.uk/whois/?query=lococraft.co.uk#whois-results; as the registrant of the domain you could have chosen to have the data made private through Nominet via the registrar so you cannot say you will blame this person if you got burgled.

 

Andy -

 

IMHO I really do think this thread should now be locked. Inuendo and even allegations are flying thick and fast, rather than just general observations - whilst at the same time it seems there is some mystery surrounding the whole project as well - at least some contributors seem to have suspicions anyway!

 

I'm sure I'm not alone as an 'outsider' reading this thread, when I say that I find much of it totally confusing/incomprehensible.

 

It might be time to lock it down before any legal lines are crossed, but of course it is not my decision - only a respectfully made suggestion.

 

DJP/MMP

[John K]

Andy -

IMHO I really do think this thread should now be locked. Inuendo and even allegations are flying thick and fast, rather than just general observations - whilst at the same time it seems there is some mystery surrounding the whole project as well - at least some contributors seem to have suspicions anyway!

I'm sure I'm not alone as an 'outsider' reading this thread, when I say that I find much of it totally confusing/incomprehensible.

It might be time to lock it down before any legal lines are crossed, but of course it is not my decision - only a respectfully made suggestion.

DJP/MMP

While I have some sympathy with your view, I think the thread still has legs, so long as people post sensibly.

If nothing else the content of this thread stands as a shining beacon of "How not to do it"

John K

Edited April 25, 2018 by John K

[woodenhead]

The thread is throwing up more questions than answers so it needs to continue until we understand what the deal is here

[muddys-blues]

It’s getting a bit like Dragons Den .......

[woodenhead]

It’s getting a bit like Dragons Den .......

 

hello, I'm Debra

[Colin_McLeod]

Andy -

 

IMHO I really do think this thread should now be locked. Inuendo and even allegations are flying thick and fast, rather than just general observations - whilst at the same time it seems there is some mystery surrounding the whole project as well - at least some contributors seem to have suspicions anyway!

 

I'm sure I'm not alone as an 'outsider' reading this thread, when I say that I find much of it totally confusing/incomprehensible.

 

It might be time to lock it down before any legal lines are crossed, but of course it is not my decision - only a respectfully made suggestion.

 

DJP/MMP

What is it with people wanting threads locked?

 

Edited to remove expletive

Edited April 25, 2018 by Colin_McLeod