Why are new trains so awful

[caradoc]

The most badly damaged vehicles from the Grayrigg derailment Pendolino were scrapped.  The rest are at Crewe where they are used as a static training centre for VT on-board staff.

 

I have always wondered why the undamaged vehicles from 390033 were not used to strengthen a couple more 9-car sets to 11-cars ?

[John M Upton]

I think regards the 700's, let's put it this way. I have had a lot of enquiries from people regarding the new timetable (which by the way still hasn't been fully confirmed with three weeks to go but that's another farce - err I mean - story!) and many of these enquiries are about what services will be run with 700's so that they can avoid them!!!

[phil-b259]

I have always wondered why the undamaged vehicles from 390033 were not used to strengthen a couple more 9-car sets to 11-cars ?

 

Because they were not of the correct type.

 

As with the 800s, because the Pendalions have distributed traction, most coaches are not simply coaches that can be swapped round at will - they have specific functions and must sit in specific locations within the train.

 

As such the 'spares' from Grayrigg are of no use other than to replace what already exists in the 9 car rakes and are useless for extending any more rakes to 11 cars

Edited April 27, 2018 by phil-b259

[rodent279]

I have to say I'm not fan of Pendos, but I'd rather be in a Pendo in an accident than a Mk1. Had that train been Mk1's, or worse, pre-nationalisation wooden framed steel panelled stock, there'd have been dozens dead, and hundreds seriously injured. I'll happily sacrifice a view from a window for the sake of a safer vehicle, though I'm not convinced that it can't be done with seats lining up with windows.

Mk3's were renowned for being very strong. Despite high speed accidents at Southall, Ladbroke Grove, Bushey (1980), Norton Bridge (1986) et al, by my reckoning about 45 people have died in Mk3's as a result of accidents in over 40yrs, & millions of passenger-miles, compared to 35 in the Mk1's at Clapham alone. I love Mk1's, but I know where I'd rather be in an accident.

 

Edit: correct me if I'm wrong but I think the first deaths in a mark 3 due to an accident were at Southall, in 1997, over 20 years and millions of passenger miles since first entering service.

Not that it's any consolation to those affected.

Edited April 27, 2018 by rodent279

[Reorte]

But the last time I travelled on a train, the only person looking out of the window was me! Today's 'mobile gadget' generation don't need windows at all. They aren't interested in anything that isn't on a 2in square screen. I'd design trains with NO windows. 

I'd design the Matrix and just run virtual trains in it, sounds like it would suffice for them.

 

On Grayrigg there was probably about a 50-50 chance that my dad would've been on that train (he was going back and forth from the south to Cumbria a lot at the time). I was driving up the M6 through that area very shortly afterwards (before I'd heard any news) and wondered why there seemed to be so many flashing blue lights flying around the place.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Reorte

[Nimbus]

Sad to see Potter's full of 365s which weren't actually that bad and ironically when built were set up for Thameslink operations which were cancelled at the time

I've got a soft spot for 365's, though I know others despise their lack of climate control. Except when rammed full, they feel much less claustrophobic than their descendants, the 387's.

Less than a month to go now on GN services, I believe. I'm not looking forward to the new timetable.

 

The Nim.

[russ p]

Apparently, 365s have the ducting for air-conditioning but was not fitted due to cost.

If they were fitted and given a refreshed interior but not the new seats they could easily get another 10 to 15 years from them

I was talking to Lynn drivers when refreshing the route last summer they hate the 387s and love 365s

[number6]

I like the 700s.

 

Extract yourself from a stuffy Southern service with their claustrophobic interiors, grubby seats and tables and onto one of these its a blessed relief. And to be honest to be moving at speed on the Brighton line is the priority not the softness or width of the seats. Remember that these replaced the hideous 319s - lovely to drive apparently "a proper train" but nasty inside. Perhaps I've been bullied into this opinion over the years, but those older trains: a draughty VEP or greasy late CIG were horrible too. But one of those Phase 1 BIGs or CIGs with the grey moquette - now you are talking. My grandad complained about PUL and PAN motor coaches on his commute in the 50s - impossible to read with the poor riding apparently. 

[rodent279]

Commuters are never happy are they!

[jjb1970]

A lot depends on the interior fit out. If I look at my daily ride to work the 350/1 and 350/3 trains are very pleasantly to travel in (ride quality excepted) with a comfortable 2+2 seating arrangement, balance of airline seating and table bays and pleasant décor. The 350/2 trains which are basically the same train are awful with their high density 3+2 arrangement, interestingly it isn't just because of the narrower and more cramped seating but the narrower aisle makes moving through the train a nightmare if all seats are occupied and greatly reduces standing space. I find that in some ways the Class 319's used by LNWR for some services ride better than the 350's as they do not have the violent lateral acceleration and have a more gentle swaying motion but in every other way they're far worse than the Desiro trains.

 

Old trains weren't always better. This may be seen as almost sacrilegious given the hallowed reputation of the Mk.3 coach today, but the original intercity 70 seats were dire, the idea of fixed arm rests with tables was as dumb as it gets in terms of seating design, the windows didn't line up with seating bays in second class and they had that awful brake smell, although the various refurbishments didn't address all these issues on the whole I thought they improved the Mk.3 significantly.

[phil-b259]

Apparently, 365s have the ducting for air-conditioning but was not fitted due to cost.

If they were fitted and given a refreshed interior but not the new seats they could easily get another 10 to 15 years from them

I was talking to Lynn drivers when refreshing the route last summer they hate the 387s and love 365s

 

From a drivers perspective the one obvious difference the 365s have is far better visibility due to the lack of an end gangway. Having been used to full width cabs for a decade or so (since the 365s displaced the 317s), the restricted view from the 387s must be a right pain.

 

Its one of the advantages of going for fixed formation trains on Thameslink - full width driving cabs

[Nimbus]

There's sod all to see on today's railways from the "souped up tram" windows anyway - Thats if your lucky enough to get a "seat" next to one. Just vegetation and the odd rusty siding now and again - oh, did I mention vegetation - soon be summer, lots of green, spot the colourfull flowers these days !!!!!!

Come for a jaunt on the GN then! Lots of nice new dark green palisade fencing to see, complete with 'chariot blade' capping in contrasting silver!

 

The Nim.

[admiles]

No, they are stadler flirts but are like nothing before , most of the equipment is on the roof and as they articulated the floor drops away between the bogies.

How these are disabled compliant is beyond me.

The bimodes are going to have a power car which is basically a short cabless BoBo loco with a 88 engine either side of a gangway!

 

Why not give the Stadler units a chance before slating them? Used many Stadler units in Europe and they do a pretty good job.

Seem well built with comfortable seats (though god knows what DFT will fit here).  The sloped floors are fine for wheelchairs.

[Nimbus]

Having been used to full width cabs for a decade or so (since the 365s displaced the 317s), the restricted view from the 387s must be a right pain.

Time flies! It's actually over 2 decades, if memory serves. (This based on my recall of the AC-fitted batch being delivered new to the privatised GN, though outshopped in NSE livery. Other sources mention the transfer of the 16 DC units from Connex to the GN in 2004.)

 

The Nim.

[Reorte]

Old trains weren't always better. This may be seen as almost sacrilegious given the hallowed reputation of the Mk.3 coach today, but the original intercity 70 seats were dire, the idea of fixed arm rests with tables was as dumb as it gets in terms of seating design, the windows didn't line up with seating bays in second class and they had that awful brake smell, although the various refurbishments didn't address all these issues on the whole I thought they improved the Mk.3 significantly.

I'm too young to remember those aspects of the Mk 3s, although I probably travelled on them like that as a small child. The downside that I always noticed with them were the pressure-controlled vestibule doors, particularly when they spent the whole journey randomly opening and shutting. It's quite a while since I've been in a Mk 3, have those been replaced?

Edited April 27, 2018 by Reorte

[John M Upton]

I have to admit I am mystified why they just don't refit the shoe gear to the 365's and send them to Southeastern.

[Bon Accord]

I have to admit I am mystified why they just don't refit the shoe gear to the 365's and send them to Southeastern.

 

I believe between 8-10 are coming to ScotRail at least in the short term, but then whoi knows. The first one or two have already arrived at St Rollox.

[rodent279]

I'm too young to remember those aspects of the Mk 3s, although I probably travelled on them like that as a small child. The downside that I always noticed with them were the pressure-controlled vestibule doors, particularly when they spent the whole journey randomly opening and shutting. It's quite a while since I've been in a Mk 3, have those been replaced?

Several things let down the Mk3-the outdated slam doors, with their drop down windows and outside handle, the diabolically poor internal gangway doors, the fixed armrests and the smell of gently toasting brakes after a sharp stop.

 

Most of these have been put right over the years, except for the first item. Even there, Chiltern has shown what can be done, given the will. The ride quality is still up to modern standards in my view. They are a real classic, up there with the MK1 coach, E-type Jag & Routemaster.

 

Given the spin-offs they spawned in the Mk3 derived EMU & DMU families, I think a Mk3 of some sort is well worth a place in the national collection.

Edited April 27, 2018 by rodent279

[willjmitchell]

Great discussion and very topical. A few observations of my own:

 

1. Lighting plays a significant role, and it’s been getting gradually worse (brighter) over time. Most modern train interiors are tortuously, unnecessarily bright. FGW’s mark 3 standard class, for example: try getting some sleep in one of those! You need something thick to cover your eyes from the combination of the garish purple colour scheme and the unforgiving fluorescent strip lighting. To me it’s akin to sitting in a moving hospital waiting room.

 

2. Seating and the layout of the seats: Working in concert with lighting to make your journey as uncomfortable as possible. Even intercity coaches now have more comfortable seats than most trains. And woe betide if you were looking forward to a view, unless you fancy examining some plastic panelling in forensic detail to pass the time.

 

3. Incessant announcements. DING . DING . Some operators are worse than others. I once rode a

Virgin Pendolino from Euston to Glasgow and it was honestly reminiscent of Guantanamo. Announcement after announcement after announcement. Some human, some automated, often repetitious and coming before and after every single station stop. Looking to get some rest or enjoy peaceful contemplation as you watch the countryside glide by? Not a chance, unless you happen to have effective ear plugs or noise cancelling headphones turned up to the max. But don’t forget to take your personal belongings with you when you leave the train and did you know the buffet car serves food and drinks?

 

4. Branding and gimmicks: Nothing like a Virgin train to make me want to poke my own eyes out in disgust at the patronising and infantilising gimmickry aboard their bloody trains. You wouldn’t flush your goldfish down the loo now would you!

 

5. The general sense that the railways have lost their way. BR produced some decent interiors and there’s no reason why we couldn’t do better today. It’s surely not beyond the wit of man to provide a comfortable seat and line it up with a window. There really aren’t many excuses for this mess. I strongly believe rail’s trump card is comfort, and yet train interiors and onboard amenities have been salami sliced to the point where it’s actually more comfortable to drive or even take the coach. It’s as if we’re looking to compete with Ryanair in a race to the bottom. And it won’t end well for the railways.

Edited April 27, 2018 by willjmitchell

[Reorte]

Several things let down the Mk3-the outdated slam doors, with their drop down windows and outside handle, the diabolically poor internal gangway doors, the fixed armrests and the smell of gently toasting brakes after a sharp stop.

From my point of view as a passenger there's nothing wrong with the exterior doors; any benefit there is only indirect - it makes things easier for the operators, which should ideally filter through to the railway working better for passengers, rather than anything I actually appreciate myself (although of course there's also a direct benefit for people who struggle with ordinary doors).

[DavidB]

I was talking to Lynn drivers when refreshing the route last summer they hate the 387s and love 365s

 

That's interesting - the handful of GW LTV drivers that I've spoken to about the 387s have been very enthusiastic, with one describing them as "amazing trains to drive" - although this is presumably in comparison to the 365's diesel cousins rather than other electric units.  I was also very interested to overhear some passengers this morning when services were delayed and they were offered a direct choice from Didcot of an HST to Reading and London from platform 4 and 2 x 387s for Reading and London from platform 3.  The passengers who chose the 387 were being very derogatory about the people who chose to travel on "the tatty old" HST rather than the "lovely new" 387s.

[Reorte]

The passengers who chose the 387 were being very derogatory about the people who chose to travel on "the tatty old" HST rather than the "lovely new" 387s.

Sounds like the sort of people who are impressed with new for the sake of new, not that I've been on a 387 to compare with, although I can't say they look at all that appealing from the pictures.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Reorte

[rodent279]

From my point of view as a passenger there's nothing wrong with the exterior doors; any benefit there is only indirect - it makes things easier for the operators, which should ideally filter through to the railway working better for passengers, rather than anything I actually appreciate myself (although of course there's also a direct benefit for people who struggle with ordinary doors).

No, I've never had a problem with them, though I have seen some people struggle. They're just a bit anachronistic, when power operated doors had been normal elsewhere for years.

[rodent279]

Sounds like the sort of people who are impressed with new for the sake of new, not that I've been on a 387 to compare with, although I can't say they look at all that appealing from the pictures.

The thing is, even a tatty HST is comparable favourably to a lot of modern stock!

[Glorious NSE]

From my point of view as a passenger there's nothing wrong with the exterior doors; any benefit there is only indirect - it makes things easier for the operators, which should ideally filter through to the railway working better for passengers, rather than anything I actually appreciate myself (although of course there's also a direct benefit for people who struggle with ordinary doors).

Try lifting them out of the bodyside at a station with serious superelevation (like Bodmin Parkway) - whilst trying not to overbalance and launch yourself across the platform, and not drop yourself or your bag down the huge gap to the platform at the same time.