Sudden degradation in performance of Bristolian set

[neilmack]

Running a Hornby Bristolian set, new this month. Peco track, Gaugemaster Combi power supply and controller.

 

I have experienced a sudden loss of speed, quite abrupt. Hitherto the loco and carriages whizzed round the track very confidently and at an even speed on a setting of 40 out of 100. Then quite suddenly, the loco is sluggish, and sometimes labouring at the same speed, and wheels sometimes slipping. On its own, the loco seems fine. The Collett coaches supplied in the set however exhibit noticeable friction, and seem 'reluctant' on (radius 3) curves, where before there was no problem. I have tried a droplet of oil on each axle, to no effect. Track is a month old. My Hornby Pullman cars are wonderfully free and quick moving, so I am suspicious of those Collett carriages.

 

Any thoughts? Is there something I should be doing or checking?  As a beginner I'm rather struggling!

 

Thanks

 

Neil

[griffgriff]

Apologies if you’ve already done so but have you cleaned your wheels and track? That would explain loss of power and what have you laid your track on? Fluff often inhibits smooth running and a clean surface is recommended.

 

Griff

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Also check that the tender is free rolling. Hornby's wiper pick ups can abruptly go very draggy indeed after some wear, and I haven't found any correction other than taking them out of contact with the wheelbacks or removing them entirely. Worst case ever was an 8F on which the tender practically stalled the loco alone!

[tractionman]

If the loco runs fine on its own I would check the wheels on each coach in turn to see if something has gone awry there, I've had coaches that have had some wheel sets that are quite stiff.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[Huw Griffiths]

There could be a further angle to where you've laid your track.

 

If it's fixed to a baseboard, with power dropper wires properly soldered to the rails, it's likely that power connections to the rails should be reasonably reliable.

 

However, if it's just pieces of snap track clipped together on the carpet - with power connections only via one clip - connections will soon work loose, giving unreliable contact and high resistance.

[88C]

Welcome to the world of modelling Neil and to RMWeb.

From what you say the problem seems to be the coaches. Have you tried putting your Pullmans behind the Castle to see if you get the same problem? If everything is normal then you will know the Colletts are at fault. Hold each coach upside down an spin each axle with your finger and they should spin freely, if not you have found your problem. What to next is another question but try taking the axle out of the bogie, clean and replace, hopefully this will do the trick.

 

Best of luck.

 

Brian

[The Johnster]

OK, don't panic, this sounds like an easy fix once we've done a bit of diagnostics by way of process of elimination.

 

Firstly, do you have another locomotive and does it perform well (or can you borrow a known good runner to see if that runs ok on your track)?  If so, we have isolated the problem to the locomotive.  Make sure all wheel treads and the backs of the tyres where the pickups bear on them are clean, and that the pickups are clean where they bear on the tyres and test run it again.  No improvement?  Are you happy to take the top off and have a go inside?  If you have been running on the bare floor or a carpet, you may, I mean will, find that all sorts of stuff has got in there and is gumming up the works embedded in the grease that covers your worm and cog gears.  Clean them with an electrical switch cleaning spray (I use Maplins, so must find a new make sooner or later but one rattle can should last me for years yet), and remove all the grease.  Apply a VERY SMALL amount of suitable lubrication, the bare minimum necessary, as too much will contaminate surrounding areas and attract more gunge.  A model shop, any model shop it doesn't have to specialise in railways, will sell you suitable lube and a hypodermic syringe to apply it with; we really are talking about tiny amounts here, more is not better, and I find this very useful.

 

Ok, that's done the basics to the loco.  But if the bad running is exhibited by the other loco as well, it's the power supply to the track for the reasons explained above.  Buy yourself a cheap multimeter if you haven't already got one, and check the voltage at various points around the track, and you will probably see the volts dropping off the further you get from the connector clip.  This will show up in the loco performance; the locos will go well close to the clip, and struggle the further away they get.  The connectors between the track sections are not the strongest point of the design, and soldered connections to each section are advised.  The performance of the existing connectors will be hugely improved if the track is at least semi-permanently fixed to a board, and connections are flat and level, but you will be damaging these 'fishplate' connectors every time you disconnect and reconnect.  They can be bought as spares in a pack, and it might be a good idea to have a supply on hand to replace damaged or lost ones.  Pull the old one off with a pair of pliers and chuck it, and the new one should be a tight force fit.  It may need opening up with a small screwdriver blade if it's too tight, or tightening gently with the pliers otherwise.  A final squeeze with the pliers when it's in position does no harm.

 

Let's have a look at your suspect coaches, now.  They don't run as well as the Pullmans, so something isn't right here.  You've probably unwittingly made it worse by oiling them; they don't need oil.  If you remove the wheelsets, which you can do be prising the bogie side outwards until they can be pulled out (don't worry, the bogie is designed to cope with this sort of abuse), you will see that the axles finish in pin point bearings which run in a cone shaped recess on the inside of the axle box on the bogie.  Clean any gunge out of this recess, and the pin point.  The wheel should now run freely when you put it back in the bogie and hand spin it.  If it doesn't, check that the moulded brake shoes are not rubbing on the tread and that nothing else is fouling the wheelset.  It can be fiddly to get the wheelset to snap back into the bogie with the pinpoints of the axles sitting correctly in the cone recess, the 'cup'.

 

Now check that the bogies are pivoting freely, vertically as well as laterally.  They should be, but sometimes they find something to foul on which means that they do not sit correctly on the track and drag a bit.  

 

This is the basic stuff; if it doesn't do the trick, keep asking and we'll be able to sort you our one way or another.  There is a huge amount of both expertise and goodwill on this site.

 

Good luck, and welcome to the madness, sorry, I mean hobby...

[neilmack]

Thanks very much for all the helpful comments. Much appreciated.

 

Some progress to report - I took courage in both hands, and removed one pair of wheels from a Collett coach. There was a small ball of fur wrapped around each bearing. I have now cleaned out the bearing cups, wiped off the unnecessary oil, reassembled, and repeated the process for each coach. They're definitely running much better. I have also issued a written warning to the cat, so there shouldn't be any repetition of the problem. There's definitely some hair in the bars connecting the wheels on the loco, so that's the next task. Once I have done that, what's a suitable cleaner for the wheels and rails?

[The Johnster]

You are heading in the right direction, Neil.  But you are going to have to stop the fluff from attacking your stock,  and it may be unfair to blame the cat; if as I suspect you have been laying track out on the floor and running trains it is inevitable.  Coach wheelsets are easily enough cleaned as you have found out, but the 'bars connecting the wheels' on the loco, the coupling rods, are another matter.  You are going to have to remove the crankpins (the things that screw into the crank on the wheel and attach the coupling rods to the loco) with a nut spinner, and I would suggest keeping them safe in a lump of blu tack or similar to prevent them going missing; they are tiny, but the hairs and fluff will be wrapped around them and this is what must be removed.

 

It is better to run your trains on table tops if you cannot fix the track to a baseboard; it is essential to keep them off the floor and away from the fluffy enemy 

[eastglosmog]

If you have to lay the track on the floor, spreading a couple of cheap plastic tablecloths on the floor to lay the track on is very useful for keeping the fluff at bay.  (Worked for me before I built my current layout and I have a long haired bundle of mobile  fluff in which a cat is to be found.)

[JSpencer]

 

It is better to run your trains on table tops if you cannot fix the track to a baseboard; it is essential to keep them off the floor and away from the fluffy enemy 

 

I did that 15 years ago for my niece when she came to visit. I had my best Pullman set running on it (the old Hornby Pullman tooling dating from the 80s). The train derailed (or was accidentally knocked) and the coaches fell on the floor. No serious damage, just some minor scratches. So you need to be careful about tables too.

 

Of course Hornby have redone all the Pullmans to a much higher standard since so I'm not bothered anymore about those coaches.

 

Fluff is indeed a monster. As I kid, I ran mine on the floor in my bedroom which had a thin hard wearing tightly woven carpet on raised Trix Twin rails. And the toy trains still got bunged up with fluff!

 

Slightly  OT, but when I worked at the signal box, we had one customer that kept wearing out the gear wheel on the standard Hornby 0-6-0 Jinty SSPP chassis. After several such replacements within  a few weeks with just this customer, my boss went round his house to try and understand why. Well he had used flexi track to create tighter than first  radias curves!

The chassis could - surprisingly - cope but the worm was engaging the edge of the gear wheel causing it to wear.

[Fireline]

Sounds like the gear on the wheel set is only partially meshing on the axle, meaning that it slips as much as it spins the wheels. 

[adb968008]

Thanks very much for all the helpful comments. Much appreciated.

 

Some progress to report - I took courage in both hands, and removed one pair of wheels from a Collett coach. There was a small ball of fur wrapped around each bearing. I have now cleaned out the bearing cups, wiped off the unnecessary oil, reassembled, and repeated the process for each coach. They're definitely running much better. I have also issued a written warning to the cat, so there shouldn't be any repetition of the problem. There's definitely some hair in the bars connecting the wheels on the loco, so that's the next task. Once I have done that, what's a suitable cleaner for the wheels and rails?

 

last year I had pleasure of removing 19 years of Cat from various loco wheels, gears and axles.. from a room where said moggy was banned.

 

After I had removed feline from stock, I had enough fur for 2 Cats.

Edited May 2, 2018 by adb968008

[tomparryharry]

Cat fluff away! No trouble here!

 

I recommend Staffordshire Bull Terrier! Warranted to keep your furry feline a respectable distance from any model! 

 

Available from any Dogs Trust, or RSPCA*!

 

*Note. Subject to interview, compatibility, and home checks. Caution! Will require dog walking, and engaging in conversation with other people. Friendly specimens will invariably attract people of the opposite sex.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

And, of course, you'll end up with Staffie hair in your models.  Not only that, but if he takes a liking to them, you'll never be allowed anywhere near.

Edited May 2, 2018 by The Johnster

[eastglosmog]

Cat fluff away! No trouble here!

 

I recommend Staffordshire Bull Terrier! Warranted to keep your furry feline a respectable distance from any model! 

 

Available from any Dogs Trust, or RSPCA*!

 

*Note. Subject to interview, compatibility, and home checks. Caution! Will require dog walking, and engaging in conversation with other people. Friendly specimens will invariably attract people of the opposite sex.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

As the owner of a cat who kept all the local dogs under her paw when she was younger (she has retired from this job now) don't be so sure of that!

[JSpencer]

Sounds like the gear on the wheel set is only partially meshing on the axle, meaning that it slips as much as it spins the wheels. 

 

On a worm and gear drive, the least wear is with the worm dead centre over the gear. Running on the edge of the gear causes it to wear out in a fraction of the time. If you need side play then better to have standard toothed gears to take up the slack in a two stage gear box, leaving the worm gear to remain perfectly centred.

[scratcher]

Neil did you get to the bottom of your sluggishness?  From reading through it sounds like it was the coaches sticking, but I'm interested in case it was the loco. I have a new (Feb) Hornby Drysllwyn Castle that has started to do a similar thing.

 

I've been using it to haul a 9 coach set and this week noticed that it was slowing up for no apparent reason, after running for a while. Removed the coaches and it still did it. It's ok at slow speeds but once it's get up a bit of speed it starts to happen. Both directions. It's not jerky, it just slows up, and most of the time will eventually pick up speed again. Wheels are clean, but cleaned them anyway. Pickups look to be in correct places. Taking off the plastic chassis keeper plate can't see anything amiss. Took off front bogie, not that. Removed body and took off the weight over the gear train, and all looks ok there (the whole thing is effectively sealed so no chance for anything foreign to get in anyway).

 

Doesn't happen with other locos, so not the track/electrics/controller (H&M Duette - tried on both outputs).

 

So completely stumped. Anybody experienced anything similar? 

 

A bit annoyed as the first Castle I ordered was damaged in the box and returned, so this could be the second I have to send back. 

 

I have some switch cleaner that I have used to flush out lube when running in a newly-built kit chassis, so considering using that.

 

Steve

[robmcg]

Neil did you get to the bottom of your sluggishness?  From reading through it sounds like it was the coaches sticking, but I'm interested in case it was the loco. I have a new (Feb) Hornby Drysllwyn Castle that has started to do a similar thing.

 

I've been using it to haul a 9 coach set and this week noticed that it was slowing up for no apparent reason, after running for a while. Removed the coaches and it still did it. It's ok at slow speeds but once it's get up a bit of speed it starts to happen. Both directions. It's not jerky, it just slows up, and most of the time will eventually pick up speed again. Wheels are clean, but cleaned them anyway. Pickups look to be in correct places. Taking off the plastic chassis keeper plate can't see anything amiss. Took off front bogie, not that. Removed body and took off the weight over the gear train, and all looks ok there (the whole thing is effectively sealed so no chance for anything foreign to get in anyway).

 

Doesn't happen with other locos, so not the track/electrics/controller (H&M Duette - tried on both outputs).

 

So completely stumped. Anybody experienced anything similar? 

 

A bit annoyed as the first Castle I ordered was damaged in the box and returned, so this could be the second I have to send back. 

 

I have some switch cleaner that I have used to flush out lube when running in a newly-built kit chassis, so considering using that.

 

Steve

 

It'll be no comfort and I know very little about these things but I noticed in a search through Peter's Spares that they have spare motors for A3/A4/and host of other similar engines for about £23 from memory, which may provide an option; replacement of motor?  Or return to retailer of course.

 

edit,  try this?  X9108   not sure which exact motor suits every Castle...   possibly an X4-something? 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-X9108-King-Brit-Blk-5-Railroad-Clan-Castle-Grange-8F-Patriot/311833918788?epid=823220274&hash=item489abffd44:g:raEAAOSwol5Y2OSe

 

no connection,  probably cheaper direct too..

Edited May 12, 2018 by robmcg