ECM Compspeed circuit

[robertc]

Hi, I have an elderly friend who has a few historic O gauge locos. He would like to have one of his ECM Compspeed Twin B controllers upgraded to 3A capacity to be able to run them with the 'set and forget' of the Compspeed feedback units he has.

 

Would anyone have a circuit  and  could email me copy? 

 

He is long way away and it would be good to know what I am dealing with before he spends money posting me the unit.

 

cheers

 Bob

[kevinlms]

Hi, I have an elderly friend who has a few historic O gauge locos. He would like to have one of his ECM Compspeed Twin B controllers upgraded to 3A capacity to be able to run them with the 'set and forget' of the Compspeed feedback units he has.

 

Would anyone have a circuit  and  could email me copy? 

 

He is long way away and it would be good to know what I am dealing with before he spends money posting me the unit.

 

cheers

 Bob

I'm sure the circuit has appeared on RMweb before. A quick search doesn't find it.

[robertc]

Yes,I did search but came up blank.

So there is hope then, Kevin.

Cheers

 Bob

Edited May 2, 2018 by robertc

[smokebox]

This may be what you are looking for http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/39231-alternative-controller/page-2?hl=%2Becm+%2Bcompspeed&do=findComment&comment=439030

Post No 31 onwards.

 

 

Edit to add "onwards"

Edited May 2, 2018 by smokebox

[robertc]

I gather that is a Codar one. So unfortunately not!

[smokebox]

Sorry.

[kevinlms]

Yes,I did search but came up blank.

So there is hope then, Kevin.

Cheers

 Bob

Maybe not. All I can find is a couple of threads, with me stating the virtues on these controllers and lamenting that the circuit design has gone to the grave along with the designer!

 

I do remember someone stating that the circuit contained a very common chip. After all controlling a locos speed, is not a challenging task. 

[brigo]

 

I do remember someone stating that the circuit contained a very common chip. After all controlling a locos speed, is not a challenging task. 

 

I think that was me. I do have some hand drawn sketches of the circuits for a standard Mk I, a centre off version and the Rambler Minor. I'll try and scan the drawings later today, not sure how well they will come out. Also not sure if I would be breaking any copyright if I put them on here, but I can always email them.

 

I don't think there is much to do to uprate to 3 Amps. The input diodes are 1N4002, so will need to go to 1N5401 or 2. The output transistor is a "plastic" TIP3055, so should handle the current, which then leaves the current sense resistor 1R0 to be changed to a lower value.

 

Brian

[robertc]

Many thanks Brian, I can't see anything copyright in the circuits.

I have sent you a message.

Should be able to make an old man happy, perhaps with nothing more than the cost of postage if I can find some parts  lying about in my garden shed.  :>)

cheers

 Bob

[AndyID]

I think that was me. I do have some hand drawn sketches of the circuits for a standard Mk I, a centre off version and the Rambler Minor. I'll try and scan the drawings later today, not sure how well they will come out. Also not sure if I would be breaking any copyright if I put them on here, but I can always email them.

 

I don't think there is much to do to uprate to 3 Amps. The input diodes are 1N4002, so will need to go to 1N5401 or 2. The output transistor is a "plastic" TIP3055, so should handle the current, which then leaves the current sense resistor 1R0 to be changed to a lower value.

 

Brian

If the Compspeed works the way I think it does it might also be necessary to increase the feedback gain so it works with larger motors that have less internal resistance.

 

Might be possible to do that by changing resistors selected by the feedback level switch (if there are any).

[robertc]

I'll have to take a guess at that Andy,or maybe rig up a test unit. I don't have any of that era locos myself and we are about a 9-10 hour drive away from each other.

Anyway I think it will be big improvement on what he has now.

Cheers

 Bob

[robertc]

If not for the fact the owner of this old controller is I suspect poorer than me ( a retired pommie church organist in his 80's) I would not have considered doing it at my age.

 

3A diodes, higher wattage current source resistor, 2n3055 to be mounted on back case and beefed up pc tracks where required.

 

 

The Achilles heel will be etched pc board reversing switch, who knows he might be lucky?

 

cheers

 Bob

[robertc]

So far, so good. The unit is now running locos up to 2.5A apparently. Should do a bit more but that is the maximum draw on the ones he has been running. Not sure at what point that pc etch reversing switch will act as a fuse!  :>)

I forgot to mention the current source resistor was not only upped to 5W but also reduced from 1 ohm to 0.5 ohm.

cheers

 Bob

Edited May 26, 2018 by robertc

[AndyID]

Bob,

 

I'm interested to know what the IC is. Is the lettering still readable?

 

Andy

[cpman46]

Andy

The IC is a CMOS 4001 Quadruple 2 Input NOR Gate device made by a number of manufacturers. 4001 is the generic number and will usually be preceded by the manufacturer's ID. for example CD4001, inputting CD4001 into eBay throws up a large number of sources.

Regards

Mike

[AndyID]

Andy

The IC is a CMOS 4001 Quadruple 2 Input NOR Gate device made by a number of manufacturers. 4001 is the generic number and will usually be preceded by the manufacturer's ID. for example CD4001, inputting CD4001 into eBay throws up a large number of sources.

Regards

Mike

 

Thanks Mike!

 

I thought it might be something a bit more exotic

 

Andy

[Clive Davies]

Excellent forum, I looked with great interest on the subject of ECM Compspeed Controllers.

I have been using a pair of these for years on my twin track layout. But I've always wondered what I would do if either or both failed. So decided to draw up a diagram with all components listed.

I got a bit stumped by the IC as the number was only partially visible. CD 4001 as mentioned in the forum does not appear to be whats marked on mine, but of course I could be wrong and probably am. The part that can be read is RCA 449 ( I thought I detected a 1 in front of the 4 but nothing comes up on the net with that number but 449 does). The number above RCA 449 I think starts with CD and looks like it ends with RE. Both units were purchased at the same time and are the CA direction switch type. Picture included as best as I could get it of the offending chip.

Also have original instructions and my own component diagrams and diagrams of the copper side and component side with all relevant drill holes if anybody wants them. With a bit of circuit board and some ferric chloride you can make your own. I did that with the Optronic electronic ignition on my Ginetta car after I managed to fry the board and blow up half the components, (what a berk)

still I made a completely new one and 3 years later it sill runs fine, and I built a backup board as well, two for the price of one.

Also keen to hear peoples comments on the fact that I use Relcos with the Compspeed, I appreciate

not every body likes them, I also appreciate most people on this site have far more knowledge and expertise than I do. All my loco's are Hornby Dublo, many with vertical motors most of which I've re-wound myself and converted to neodymiam magnets. Generally they draw 0.4 amps at 10volts, this seems reasonable to me but others may think otherwise and improvements could be made ie: no Relcos, wrong controllers anyway etc. Again I must say, great site.

[NIK]

9 hours ago, Clive Davies said:

Excellent forum, I looked with great interest on the subject of ECM Compspeed Controllers.

I have been using a pair of these for years on my twin track layout. But I've always wondered what I would do if either or both failed. So decided to draw up a diagram with all components listed.

I got a bit stumped by the IC as the number was only partially visible. CD 4001 as mentioned in the forum does not appear to be whats marked on mine, but of course I could be wrong and probably am. The part that can be read is RCA 449 ( I thought I detected a 1 in front of the 4 but nothing comes up on the net with that number but 449 does). The number above RCA 449 I think starts with CD and looks like it ends with RE. Both units were purchased at the same time and are the CA direction switch type. Picture included as best as I could get it of the offending chip.

Also have original instructions and my own component diagrams and diagrams of the copper side and component side with all relevant drill holes if anybody wants them. With a bit of circuit board and some ferric chloride you can make your own. I did that with the Optronic electronic ignition on my Ginetta car after I managed to fry the board and blow up half the components, (what a berk)

still I made a completely new one and 3 years later it sill runs fine, and I built a backup board as well, two for the price of one.

Also keen to hear peoples comments on the fact that I use Relcos with the Compspeed, I appreciate

not every body likes them, I also appreciate most people on this site have far more knowledge and expertise than I do. All my loco's are Hornby Dublo, many with vertical motors most of which I've re-wound myself and converted to neodymiam magnets. Generally they draw 0.4 amps at 10volts, this seems reasonable to me but others may think otherwise and improvements could be made ie: no Relcos, wrong controllers anyway etc. Again I must say, great site.

Hi,

 

Looks like 4001 looking at your photo on my monitor.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Pannier Tank]

10 hours ago, Clive Davies said:

The number above RCA 449 I think starts with CD and looks like it ends with RE.

 

The last letters look like "BE" and as Nick says a 4001 so a  CD4001BE ?

[dhjgreen]

12 minutes ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

The last letters look like "BE" and as Nick says a 4001 so a  CD4001BE ?

RE identifies it as an RCA part

[Gordon H]

The '449' will be a manufacturing date code, week 49 of a year ending in 4, so either 1974, 84, 94 etc. Most likely 1984.

[Clive Davies]

Many thanks for the replies, CD 4001 it is then, I shall acquire a couple and then put a complete board together as a spare. Looks like I need a new pair of eyeballs as well, preferably with built in macro vision.  Clive. 

[doilum]

On 09/05/2018 at 00:35, robertc said:

If not for the fact the owner of this old controller is I suspect poorer than me ( a retired pommie church organist in his 80's) I would not have considered doing it at my age.

 

3A diodes, higher wattage current source resistor, 2n3055 to be mounted on back case and beefed up pc tracks where required.

 

 

The Achilles heel will be etched pc board reversing switch, who knows he might be lucky?

 

cheers

 Bob

Install external dpdt  switch. Just use the original to correct the odd loco with perverse wiring

[Clive Davies]

Another Compspeed matter you might be able to help with, as a result of lying on the floor looking up at the underside of the layout and being bemused by the pile of spaghetti there, too many wires the same colour etc: done over many years with bits added on here and there, I decided to rationalize the wiring and have some sort of diagram so I new what was what. Discovered I probably wired the controllers up incorrectly. Compspeed instructions state (the input voltage must not exceed 14-18volts AC and each unit must be wired to it's own isolated winding, ie: one pair of orange wires per winding.

DO NOT CONNECT MORE THAN ONE UNIT TO ONE WINDING.)

I have to say that's exactly what I didn't do,  both wired to one transformer, it's fairly meaty at 5 amps and a single 16 volts AC output.  DC rectification is done within the controllers of course.

They have been wired this way for years  and nothing seems to have suffered any detrimental effects. I have no memory as to why I ignored their instruction or perhaps I didn't read them properly. Have I got away with it because I don't have it on for long periods, and if it was on for long periods would the transformer get very hot  despite having more than adequate power ? Two separate transformers or a single new trans with two 16v windings ? Very interested to hear what people think.

[cliff park]

They were probably more worried about the complications which would arise if the two controllers were wired into a common return setup. This could result in short circuits through the transformer windings