Push-pull services

[petertg]

I have taken to a push-pull rake. However, it is motley collection with an LMS liveried Jinty, a BR Maroon liveried corridor coach and an ex-GWR autotriailer. While itis true that here nobody would notice the difference, I would like it to be a bit more genuine. I imagine that the seccond coach could be a non-corridor brake, either composite or sal third. My current coaching stock is four Gresley coaches in BR liverry and four LMS coaches in crimson..Did push-pull services extend much into Nationalisation? If so, at some later daate I might consider purchasing a second Jinty in BR livery and an appropriate coach, since the autotrailer is BR. Any ideas.

[brossard]

Well Peter, the Hornby NC LMS stock is the right base for a Pull Push train.  I converted two pairs by installing the Comet driving end etch to two brakes.  The main issue I found was removing the duckets and filling the holes left.  Some touch up paint and lining was becessary.

 

My locos were Jinty 7479, which in life was fitted with auto gear.  The other is L&Y 2-4-2T 10644 which also was auto fitted.

 

 

 

The train:

 

 

John

[chrisf]

Push-pull services extended well into nationalisation - around 1964-65.  They even penetrated the Western Region's new territory when it took over the ex-Southern lines in the West Country after 1963.  Note that a WR auto trailer will only function as a push-pull if the loco powering it has the necessary rodding to enable the driver to operate the controls from the trailer's driving cab.  Otherwise it has to be used as an ordinary coach with the loco running round at each end of the trip.  For a while towards the end, the Lyme Regis branch was served by a Hawksworth auto trailer and an Ivatt 2-6-2 tank. 

 

Chris

[Barry O]

The Keighley and Worth Valley branch was run using a full "Pull & Push" set in BR days. Note the MMS designation. One set was made up of modified corridor coaches- see the thread soon the specialist MMS coach section on RMWeb.

 

Ivatt 2-6-2 tanks were popular pull &push engines. Buxton (midland) had a pull & push service in BR days as well using a rake like that shown above by Brossard.

 

I have two pull & push coaches. One is a very old BEL kit. The other is a perseverance kit. The conversion of a Hornby coach seems a good route to take.

Baz

[Oldddudders]

Pull-push, as the Southern always called it, survived into the early ‘60s on one or two branches of that former railway. Indeed, in 1959 BR converted some pre-war Maunsell coaches into 20 ‘new’ pull-push sets, to enable retirement of a number of even more venerable coaches. Of those 20 sets Hornby has now modelled at least 7.

[sharris]

Well Peter, the Hornby NC LMS stock is the right base for a Pull Push train.  I converted two pairs by installing the Comet driving end etch to two brakes.  The main issue I found was removing the duckets and filling the holes left.  Some touch up paint and lining was necessary.

 

 

 

Some of the LMS push-pull trailers were converted from brake carriages, and at least some had the duckets left on after conversion, so if you choose the right one you can save yourself some work.  

[philsandy]

Some of the LMS push-pull trailers were converted from brake carriages, and at least some had the duckets left on after conversion, so if you choose the right one you can save yourself some work.  

 

I made an LMS push-pull unit from 2 Dapol  LMS 57' non corridor coaches (a brake & composite cut and shut job) with some slight mods.

[wombatofludham]

LMS design push-pull trains ran around the Midlands (Four Oaks shuttles from Birmingham New Street and around Walsall for example) right up until their replacement with the original Derby Lightweight DMUs in about 1956. Originally they would have used Webb radial tanks (although I have seen photos of Coal Tanks on push-pulls) but in later years Ivatt small tanks were used.

 

So, it's safe to say that the LMS design of push-pull stock was used well into Nationalisation era.

 

Some info on the Warwickshire Railways website at http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrfo2342.htm

 

From the same site, a photo of a Nuneaton to Leamington push-pull at Coventry http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcov250.htm

 

Useful image of a push-pull driving car again from the Warwickshire site http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrs&l1320.htm

 

The Dudley Port to Dudley LMS shuttle at Dudley, on Geograph, from the days when Dudley Port was used as an interchange station on main line expresses for Dudley http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2206722

 

Hopefully it's enough evidence that push-pull lasted well into BR days in the Midlands, and can be relatively easily modelled using readily available RTR stock.

[brossard]

Some of the LMS push-pull trailers were converted from brake carriages, and at least some had the duckets left on after conversion, so if you choose the right one you can save yourself some work.  

 

As far as I was able to determine, no PIII driving trailer had duckets.  If I had found evidence that duckets were there, I would have left them.  It is quite a job to remove them.

 

John

[knitpick]

Sorry to upset you but - as noted above, the GWR push-pull system was mechanical, using rodding between the loco and the driving coach.  The SR (Pull-push) and I believe the LMS versions were both air operated.  Hence the Westinghouse type air pump on the SR Pull-Push locos and the odd juggle in the Ivatt push-pull 2MT steam pipes.  I also note that the modified Jinty pictured by Brossard seems to have an air pump attached. 

 

So if (OK big if) I am right about the LMS system, then you wouldn't be able to use a GWR autocoach with a Jinty other than as an ordinary towed coach.  

 

Further assuming I am correct that the LMS version was air powered. does anyone know if the SR and LMS versions were interchangeable?  

 

On another aspect, why does none of the manufacturers make an LMS push-pull set?

[philsandy]

As far as I was able to determine, no PIII driving trailer had duckets.  If I had found evidence that duckets were there, I would have left them.  It is quite a job to remove them.

 

John

 

I built mine working to this drawing that br2975 kindly sent me, is this a Period II coach conversion as it has duckets?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Some of those were P2 new build and some conversions.

[kevinlms]

 

 

On another aspect, why does none of the manufacturers make an LMS push-pull set?

Too busy making endless GWR Autocoaches & B Sets?

[Wickham Green]

Sorry to upset you but - as noted above, the GWR push-pull system was mechanical, using rodding between the loco and the driving coach.  The SR (Pull-push) and I believe the LMS versions were both air operated.  Hence the Westinghouse type air pump on the SR Pull-Push locos and the odd juggle in the Ivatt push-pull 2MT steam pipes.  I also note that the modified Jinty pictured by Brossard seems to have an air pump attached. 

 

So if (OK big if) I am right about the LMS system, then you wouldn't be able to use a GWR autocoach with a Jinty other than as an ordinary towed coach.  

 

Further assuming I am correct that the LMS version was air powered. does anyone know if the SR and LMS versions were interchangeable?  

 

On another aspect, why does none of the manufacturers make an LMS push-pull set?

Nope ! - the Southern system was, indeed, air operated but the LMS and LNER used a lack-of-air ( i.e. vacuum ) system - though I suspect they weren't compatible with each other as I don't recall seeing any mix 'n' match where regional boundaries changed. 

[Wickham Green]

Some of those were P2 new build and some conversions.

....... I thought the new-build P2s - both of them - were something different !

[Joseph_Pestell]

Looking at Jenkinson/Essery, some Period II driving trailers certainly kept their lookout duckets. But then the Period II were all conversions.

 

By contrast, most of the Period III driving trailers were new build and without duckets. If any Period III had duckets it would be the few that were converted 3rd brakes: 24460 - 24473.

[kevinlms]

Nope ! - the Southern system was, indeed, air operated but the LMS and LNER used a lack-of-air ( i.e. vacuum ) system - though I suspect they weren't compatible with each other as I don't recall seeing any mix 'n' match where regional boundaries changed. 

Almost certainly there was no requirement for compatibility, given the short, local nature of these services. A through service, would in the main be pointless.

[Michael Edge]

Each railway's push/pull systems were not compatible, although BR 2MT 2-6-2Ts had the LMS vacuum system fitted. Only a few Jinties were P/P fitted, for work in South Wales, most ex LMS P/P trains were operated by 0-4-4Ts or various LNW types until replaced by Fowler or Ivatt 2-6-2Ts. If a P/P fitted loco wasn't available the services still ran, just had to do a run round at the end. As far as I know only the GW were in the habit of sandwiching the loco between auto trailers, although all the others were fitted both ends.

[RANGERS]

The last steam operated push-pull was the Stamford to Seaton service, from memory that hung on until 1965.

 

The stock was an ex LMS driving trailer with traction provided an assortment of Jinty, Ivatt and std 2-6-2 tanks, ex LTS 4-4-2 tanks, ex MR 0-4-4 tanks, ex GN C12 and ex GC N5s. The latter suggests that the LMS and LNER systems were compatible.

[brossard]

 I also note that the modified Jinty pictured by Brossard seems to have an air pump attached. 

 

 

Not an air pump Knitpick but the vacuum regulator gear.

 

Yes, PII driving trailers had duckets but Hornby's NC coaches are PIII. 

 

John

[sharris]

As far as I know only the GW were in the habit of sandwiching the loco between auto trailers, although all the others were fitted both ends.

 

If the picture on this page is what you mean, the Midland Railway did that too..

 

http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/Push%20Pull%20YTT.html

[TheSignalEngineer]

Looking at Jenkinson/Essery, some Period II driving trailers certainly kept their lookout duckets. But then the Period II were all conversions.

 

By contrast, most of the Period III driving trailers were new build and without duckets. If any Period III had duckets it would be the few that were converted 3rd brakes: 24460 - 24473.

M24460M was converted from 20565 c 1934/5. It had a period 2 roof with torpedo vents and duckets. Some early period 3 coaches also had torpedo vents. Hornby ones are mostly numbered as late versions IIRC.

[Michael Edge]

If the picture on this page is what you mean, the Midland Railway did that too..

 

http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/Push%20Pull%20YTT.html

I was thinking of rather more recent times than that!

[Wickham Green]

Each railway's push/pull systems were not compatible, although BR 2MT 2-6-2Ts had the LMS vacuum system fitted. Only a few Jinties were P/P fitted, for work in South Wales, most ex LMS P/P trains were operated by 0-4-4Ts or various LNW types until replaced by Fowler or Ivatt 2-6-2Ts. If a P/P fitted loco wasn't available the services still ran, just had to do a run round at the end. As far as I know only the GW were in the habit of sandwiching the loco between auto trailers, although all the others were fitted both ends.

I'm not sure whether you're including the Lanky 2-4-2Ts as 'LNW types' - which they were briefly ............

[The Johnster]

So far as compatibility with the GW's mechanical auto linkage goes, the stock acquired at the grouping from the Taff Vale and Cardiff Railways seems to have been compatible, but not that from the Rhymney.  I could probably at one time have told you if modifications were required to enable use with GW auto fitted locos; AFAIK these were all built to work with railmotors or converted from railmotors (as were many of the GW ones), but it is one of the things that have dropped through the holes in the Swiss cheese that my brain is made up of and I cannot recall it now...

 

Taff Vale and Cardiff Railway trailers survived into the 50s to be used with 4575 tanks on Cardfif suburban workings, but they seem to have remained in 2-car sets and not mixed and matched with the GW trailers, though they could be seen in the same train with the loco in the middle.  Again AFAIK but I would be happy to be corrected, they spent their entire working lives in the Cardiff area.

Edited May 4, 2018 by The Johnster