Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Pre Grouping fan]

3 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

Thanks Dave, but this still doesn't provide any info as to where the actual fault physically is?  A circuit board mounted within the chassis, or inside the body/cab?  Or the wiring elsewhere?  Some clarification would be useful, in that if I separate the body from the chassis am I then effectively left holding a faulty chassis, or a faulty body, or both?  And as such, can the erroneous part(s) easily be removed or/and replaced?

 

cheers

Al

 

Hattons Dave mentioned in his first post on the previous page that it's in the lighting boards at each ends. Whether this relates to the issue your talking about or another lighting Issue in not sure. 

[Andy7]

3 hours ago, SouthernMafia said:

Whilst I appreciate the responses Dave, that is a little disappointing that effectively if you want the model you want, you're paying full price for it with known faults. Returning it for "an alternative" (of which the variants I would have had with sound are now sold out) is not really a solution. 

The livery issue is minor, I can fix that. The marker light issue is a much bigger concern.

I hope that Hattons take this issue more seriously and look for a better solution, rather than just saying 'tough'.

The model is made and is not getting amended, fact. Hattons are not going to fix each one individually.

So basically yes, you buy it with flaws or you don’t. If you already have it then send it back and get a refund, someone else will probably buy it and be happy. If not one day they might be for sale cheaper.
There is very little Hattons can do in my opinion, they didn’t want it to be wrong.

What would you want them to do?

[TomScrut]

20 minutes ago, Andy7 said:

The model is made and is not getting amended, fact. Hattons are not going to fix each one individually.

So basically yes, you buy it with flaws or you don’t. If you already have it then send it back and get a refund, someone else will probably buy it and be happy. If not one day they might be for sale cheaper.
There is very little Hattons can do in my opinion, they didn’t want it to be wrong.

What would you want them to do?

 

And we don't actually know enough about the issue to decide if there isn't a cure because it's an easy fix (new circuit board) but they can't be bothered (I doubt this is the case) or if it would mean wholesale changes to the tooling at the front end to accommodate a different circuit board with the space required to do it.

 

If I was that bothered about a particular model then I'd probably buy it anyway and try and fix it myself. I nearly ordered a big light one as I think these are the best looking but thought I'd be more likely to get one in future and focused on celebs to begin with.

Edited February 15, 2020 by TomScrut

[SouthernMafia]

3 hours ago, Andy7 said:

The model is made and is not getting amended, fact. Hattons are not going to fix each one individually.

So basically yes, you buy it with flaws or you don’t. If you already have it then send it back and get a refund, someone else will probably buy it and be happy. If not one day they might be for sale cheaper.
There is very little Hattons can do in my opinion, they didn’t want it to be wrong.

What would you want them to do?

 

No, of course they don't want it to be wrong. Neither do I and many others I'm sure. Dismissing the problem as unfixable is not a solution when other (perhaps more experienced) manufacturers have proven that it can be done.

[7013]

It does seem rather odd to say that there is not going to be a fix. However that does not mean it cannot be fixed. One would hope that if/when a fix is carried out perhaps that could be shared with owners of the affected models who could then decide if they wanted the fix. 

[YesTor]

11 hours ago, Andy7 said:

The model is made and is not getting amended, fact.  There is very little Hattons can do in my opinion, they didn’t want it to be wrong.

What would you want them to do?

 

10 hours ago, TomScrut said:

If I was that bothered about a particular model then I'd probably buy it anyway and try and fix it myself.

 

No disrespect intended, but pointing out that "the models are already made" seems a tad academic at this stage?  We all realize that the models are finished, we really do.  Equally, I'm sure everyone realizes that Hattons haven't created this issue (or any other) on purpose.  What manufacturer would?  My straightforward question was simply designed to help me decide if I could indeed purchase the model with said defect and assuming that no fix was to be made available, could I indeed fix it myself.  No more, no less. 

 

It is worth remembering that if people verbalise disappointment then it is generally because they care, to some degree.  Myself, like many others following the Class 66 topic, have made contributions and suggestions along the way and followed each step of the design and manufacturing process via the updates posted here and at Hattons; and naturally, as time progresses, all of these factors add to the general excitement/anticipation of the final arrival of the finished model. 

 

As it stands, I really would like a model of 66418 'Patriot', with sound, and all of the details and features which Hattons have naturally been hyping since the initial announcement.  The model comes in at £265 and has taken near-on 2 years to reach its finale.  I'd quite like the model to be right.  Is that seriously too much of an expectation?  Personally I think not.  As it transpires the model has emerged with the odd glitch, and again I feel it is perfectly reasonable to request if there is, or intends to be, a potential solution. 

 

In response to,  "What would you want them [Hattons] to do?"  Well, as it is Hattons' model then I'd estimate that they can likely do more than anyone else.  So from my viewpoint I'd guess there are several options really... 

 

1. Ideally administer a solution/'fix'/repair (call it what you may) prior to the despatch of said model(s).
    
2. If the above is not possible/feasible then supply any necessary replacement parts at a later date so that the customer may, at his discretion, administer his own repair/modification.
    
3. If neither of the above prove viable, then at some point provide sufficient information regarding the exact issue so as the customer can then decide for himself as to whether he can, could potentially, or even wishes to administer his own repair/modification at his own discretion. 

 

Indeed, based upon Hattons usual standard of customer service it may well be that some of the above options are already being investigated, as after all, the last thing that any manufacturer wants is returned or unsold stock.  As others have said, I have no major qualm with fixing a model myself if it is a model I truly feel that I need, which is very much the case for me this time around.  If however I had to administer a modification or repair on multiple versions of the same model (whoever the manufacturer may be), then I may of course feel a little differently.   

 

Unreasonable?  Personally, I really don't think so.  What I do find slightly more bizarre however, is what seems to be the suggestion that customers should not even be asking for possible solutions to these kinds of issues, as often seems to be the case when these kind of instances occur. 

 

Best

Al

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by YesTor

[Roy Langridge]

I can't believe I am reading some of the statements here about what will or will not happen - pure supposition / speculation. Hattons Dave has said they are looking into it. To have a manufacturer admit an issue so openly and quickly is pretty much unheard of. Let us give him the courtesy of having the time to discuss with the factory what has gone wrong and see what is reported back to us.

 

Roy

[Andy7]

5 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

 

No disrespect intended, but pointing out that "the models are already made" seems a tad academic at this stage?  We all realize that the models are finished, we really do.  Equally, I'm sure everyone realizes that Hattons haven't created this issue (or any other) on purpose.  What manufacturer would?  My straightforward question was simply designed to help me decide if I could indeed purchase the model with said defect and assuming that no fix was to be made available, could I indeed fix it myself.  No more, no less. 

 

It is worth remembering that if people verbalise disappointment then it is generally because they care, to some degree.  Myself, like many others following the Class 66 topic, have made contributions and suggestions along the way and followed each step of the design and manufacturing process via the updates posted here and at Hattons; and naturally, as time progresses, all of these factors add to the general excitement/anticipation of the final arrival of the finished model. 

 

As it stands, I really would like a model of 66418 'Patriot', with sound, and all of the details and features which Hattons have naturally been hyping since the initial announcement.  The model comes in at £265 and has taken near-on 2 years to reach its finale.  I'd quite like the model to be right.  Is that seriously too much of an expectation?  Personally I think not.  As it transpires the model has emerged with the odd glitch, and again I feel it is perfectly reasonable to request if there is, or intends to be, a potential solution. 

 

In response to,  "What would you want them [Hattons] to do?"  Well, as it is Hattons' model then I'd estimate that they can likely do more than anyone else.  So from my viewpoint I'd guess there are several options really... 

 

1. Ideally administer a solution/'fix'/repair (call it what you may) prior to the despatch of said model(s).
    
2. If the above is not possible/feasible then supply any necessary replacement parts at a later date so that the customer may, at his discretion, administer his own repair/modification.
    
3. If neither of the above prove viable, then at some point provide sufficient information regarding the exact issue so as the customer can then decide for himself as to whether he can, could potentially, or even wishes to administer his own repair/modification at his own discretion. 

 

Indeed, based upon Hattons usual standard of customer service it may well be that some of the above options are already being investigated, as after all, the last thing that any manufacturer wants is returned or unsold stock.  As others have said, I have no major qualm with fixing a model myself if it is a model I truly feel that I need, which is very much the case for me this time around.  If however I had to administer a modification or repair on multiple versions of the same model (whoever the manufacturer may be), then I may of course feel a little differently.   

 

Unreasonable?  Personally, I really don't think so.  What I do find slightly more bizarre however, is what seems to be the suggestion that customers should not even be asking for possible solutions to these kinds of issues, as often seems to be the case when these kind of instances occur. 

 

Best

Al

 

You have sort of answered your own questions. 
“Most” people won’t be bothered by a lighting issue and I would say it can be fixed, (almost everything can be). 
You say that you want a solution (Which is five) and then go on to say that one of these models you NEED and will fix it yourself.

Do Hattons really need to get a fix for these already produced models, I would say no, it’s not economical. Although in the future they may offer something. Easier just to mention in the description on the website/in the shop the issues. 

I would expect that future (currently un-made) models work as per the prototype although I wouldn’t be surprised if not. 

[pteandy1402]

After a little modifying of the hattons circuit board yard mode, day headlight and night headlight with the correct 2 marker lights and toplight

[TomScrut]

On 14/02/2020 at 17:02, Hattons Dave said:

What are you doing for customers with these models?

We are not able to offer a solution which will result in lights displaying correctly. Any customers who are not happy with their model can return it to be exchanged for an alternative item or to be fully refunded.

 

20 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Will future announcements of large headlight Class 66s have the correct marker light wiring?

We are working with our vendors to determine if this is possible

 

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

I can't believe I am reading some of the statements here about what will or will not happen - pure supposition / speculation. Hattons Dave has said they are looking into it. To have a manufacturer admit an issue so openly and quickly is pretty much unheard of. Let us give him the courtesy of having the time to discuss with the factory what has gone wrong and see what is reported back to us.

 

Roy

 

Not sure why you don't believe what you are reading. Dave has specifically said they are not doing anything for existing models other than offering returns.

 

The "looking into it" is for future unannounced models.

 

It is good that they have come out and admitted this issue (after being asked by somebody who had one themselves already I might add), and my point a few posts above is pointed at until we know exactly what the issue is (we know it's the front light board) and how much space there is to effect a repair we don't know how reasonable or unreasonable Hattons' stance is. It won't stop me buying one, I'd just try and sort it myself which by the previous post looks a possibility.

Edited February 16, 2020 by TomScrut

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, pteandy1402 said:

After a little modifying of the hattons circuit board yard mode, day headlight and night headlight with the correct 2 marker lights and toplight

 

That's great news!

 

How difficult was the mod? Any pics?

[pteandy1402]

I'm on nights so just going to sleep but if i get chance later I'll try and get some photos but i completely removed the switches from the circuit board where the dedoder went. On the little light circuit boards at each end there are tiny little tracks that link the marker light to opposite side headlight and both connect to either the wire for the day headlight or night headlight. I linked the 2 marker lights together as one circuit and day headlight as one circuit a night headlight as another which meant adding another wire running from the lighting circuit each end i used the F0 light output to drive yard ie 2x lower markers and i connected the toplight circuit.  AUX1 for day headlight, AUX 2 for night headlight, AUX 3 tail light, AUX 4 cablight, then F0 reverse, AUX 5, 6, 7, 8 for reverse. I used the solder pads on the decoder for the AUX outputs and all the standard resistors on the light boards are retained

[pteandy1402]

Ive used this guy's website http://s374444733.websitehome.co.uk/class-70/index.htm as a basis for a lot of my models and learnt from that and built on that but it did require lots of probing with a multimeter and removal of all the switches making it dcc only.  I also used a lok programmer to reassign function outputs for yard mode, night and day headlights parking mode and train mode with disabled headlights

[TomScrut]

21 minutes ago, pteandy1402 said:

Ive used this guy's website http://s374444733.websitehome.co.uk/class-70/index.htm as a basis for a lot of my models and learnt from that and built on that but it did require lots of probing with a multimeter and removal of all the switches making it dcc only.  I also used a lok programmer to reassign function outputs for yard mode, night and day headlights parking mode and train mode with disabled headlights

 

I presume a Lokprogrammer makes life a lot easier when it comes to setting aux outputs and the logic tables? On my Lokpilot V4s in my class 68s I worked the CVs out by hand and then programmed it all manually

[Roy Langridge]

14 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I presume a Lokprogrammer makes life a lot easier when it comes to setting aux outputs and the logic tables? On my Lokpilot V4s in my class 68s I worked the CVs out by hand and then programmed it all manually

The Lokprogrammer is expensive but it a fantastic bit of kit, well worth the price tag if you want to change CVs or update sound files. particularly useful for those CVs where different bits do different things. 
 

Roy

[TomScrut]

33 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

The Lokprogrammer is expensive but it a fantastic bit of kit, well worth the price tag if you want to change CVs or update sound files. particularly useful for those CVs where different bits do different things. 
 

Roy

 

Cheers, that's what I was thinking. As I am probably going to configure the lighting as I like with my Hattons 66s (bringing it back on topic) with some Lokpilot V5s. Probably to mimic the behaviour of the factory sound.

 

I am also presuming it will allow me to read a decoder and save the configuration? I have 2 68s with identical configuration and I am getting at least 2 more. Likewise with the Hattons 66 I am waiting on 2 and will probably get more long term.

Edited February 16, 2020 by TomScrut

[spamcan61]

23 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

  Or just 95% right?  I would think Hattons would care a lot about that last 5%, even if you think the punters won't.

As with many other areas of business there's a balance to be struck between "quality" of product (which is subjective anyway) and cost of production.  Personally I doubt if it makes business sense to spend the extra time and money trying to keep the fussiest 5% of potential buyers happy in this context.

Taguchi's quality loss function in action.

[pteandy1402]

 Lokprogrammer makes it loads easier than cv tables just its just tick boxes in the programme. I used 8 function outputs on top of the f0 forward and reverse for the class 66

[Dicky L]

Firstly many thanks to Dave for responding on the lighting issue regarding the  large headlight versions. 

 

I am currently trying to work out if I should retain my pre-orders for sound fitted 66621 and 66743 or cancel them and change to something else with the correct light configuration.
 

Reading the posts on here I get the impression this issue relates to marker lights in yard mode as oppose to the running lights for mainline running.

 

If my assumptions are correct and the running lights function correctly the yard light configuration is not particularly a concern to me.

 

Can this be clarified so I can make a decision.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

Edited February 16, 2020 by Dicky L

[pteandy1402]

I have the colas class 66 which has the large lights. As from the factory you cant use yard mode which is just the 2x marker lights and top light. That's what the trains use (trust me im a signaller in tbe entrance to a freightliner yard) it is physically impossible to use that from the factory. Also in day or night mode it is still incorrect as only only 1 lower marker shows opposite the main headlight

[pteandy1402]

[Walkes07]

Pictures of day and night mode on the class 66. The Hattons 66 is correct. I think it’s just the yard light mode not working correctly on the 66 with the bigger lights

[pteandy1402]

My 66 only displayed ine marker opposite the headlight before i modified it

[gary_lner]

23 minutes ago, Eddie R v2.0 said:

Taken from Flickr 

 

 

 

numerous similar pics on that site showing the same. Is the issue that you can’t just have the three markers only? 

 

No the issue with this particular hattons 66 batch is that you can't have the lighting arrangement shown in this picture or just have the marker lights on as if you were in a depot without modifications as Pte1402 has done. In his earlier post the 66 from the factory only one of the marker lights works when in day or night mode opposite the main headlight. Not the setup show in the picture above.

[Walkes07]

1 hour ago, pteandy1402 said:

My 66 only displayed ine marker opposite the headlight before i modified it

How did u modified it?