Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[YesTor]

On 29/03/2020 at 11:41, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

I feel the people assembling them are thinking they are toys rather than models and dont realise the value put on what they are working on.

 

That may well be so.  That said, we have to look at this kind of thing from all angles...  it doesn't matter whether it's a model train, iPhone, or whatever, at the end of the day these workers are carrying out what, let's be honest, must be a totally mind-numbing job, likely being paid peanuts and are also likely of fairly low skill.  If we want these things manufactured and assembled with aircraft engine precision then we need to pay a Rolls-Royce engineer to sit on the production line accordingly... and our locomotives will far exceed the current price tag. 

 

Speaking in general production terms and with all of the above in mind, as a designer you have to make everything that you submit for manufacture/assembly essentially 'idiot-proof' (awful terminology, sorry, but often the case), and very sadly I don't feel that this axlebox configuration quite meets that criteria.  The plastic axlebox covers are on occasion moulded fairly crudely (bits of flash on the shank etc - which in itself will create a wobble), and furthermore are totally dependent on being inserted with an exact amount of glue in very precise alignment to the axle...  and there are 12 of them on each model!  It just seems a bit of a tall order to expect this kind of thing to be assembled perfectly, each and every time on each and every locomotive...    Oh yeah, where is that Rolls-Royce engineer when you need him...?  

 

From my own past experience in manufacturing, a handful of 'approval samples' from any factory are generally presented in perfect state, as naturally the factory want to seal the order.  Sadly, these early pre-production samples can quite often appear completely different to what is presented months down the line when there are hundreds/thousands to assemble from components manufactured at a different time, where it is often likely that materials, colour, competence of assembly will vary wildly from those original samples that you saw 12 months ago.  None of this should be an excuse, because as a designer/head of production, you have to attempt to factor in all of these kind of potential eventualities when you design and approve a product, which isn't always easy, as there will always be something waiting to catch you unawares...

 

And again, it's all very well myself/us sitting here casting these judgements at this point, but of course I/we now have the benefit of hindsight.  Design, manufacture and production, or more precisely, errors in design, manufacture and production are a hugely expensive game and I'd imagine that Hattons' are very much aware of all of this.  The key thing now is to work out a way forward by looking at resolving these issues... 

 

From my own perspective, I'm sitting here now with five models that do not run as expected.  I'm pretty sure that if I return them that Hattons' will replace said models, although to be honest I'm not sure of the probability of receiving 'non-wobblers' if I do so.  And the last thing I want to be doing is going to-and-fro with endless returns and replacements...    

 

On the other hand, I'm confident enough at removing the existing axleboxes from the models that I have.  What I am not so confident of however, at this point, is the re-usability of some of the solvent-affected covers once they are removed.  One of my questions really - and perhaps Dave could kindly advise at this point - is if it is possible to access spare axlebox covers, so I can correct the models I have here without the need to return...?

 

Best
Al

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by YesTor

[YesTor]

3 hours ago, atom3624 said:

Very clear photographic presentation of the AB dilemma.

 

I mentioned this 3 months ago with mine, where I believed:

1. The problem was with the AB location.

2. The hole was too 'just right' for a moving part.

3. I removed a problematic one, slightly drilled out the hole and cured it.

4. AB purchase is insufficient - axles need to be longer and threaded or splined.

 

I would add that to avoid the AB being oversized, to permit this feature without a visible hole, perhaps a finer cast / stamped metal AB is required - this would permit a smaller OD, maintaining the ID the same - splined or threaded even. The side bogies could maintain holes the same diameter, thus with greater spacing away from the AB's.

 

Al.

 

Agreed, for the most-part a marginally larger hole in the bogie frame would likely eradicate quite a few wobbling issues by itself. 

 

A stamped metal cover would also have a much finer appearance as well, so yeah that would indeed be good.

 

Al

[rob D2]

I certainly wouldn’t compare RR engineers with chinese production staff - on my present experience I’d prefer the Chinese to put together a jet engine,

 

Anyhoo,

 

Are these damned axleboxes to be the unnecessary gimmick ? Like the Louvre and doors on past releases .

 

i hope not, but like others I’m surprised this wasn’t picked up in testing 

[YesTor]

6 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

hows otheres finding the model getting away from its issues......

 

Aside from the wobble issue the model is, in my eyes, absolutely stunning.  And as you point out the sound package really is the icing on the cake.  I just need to get my head around this axlebox conundrum and I've no doubt that I'll be buying a whole lot more in the future.

 

 

6 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Are these damned axleboxes to be the unnecessary gimmick ? Like the Louvre and doors on past releases .

 

i hope not, but like others I’m surprised this wasn’t picked up in testing 

 

Fair point, to be honest I personally don't see the axleboxes as a gimmick, as they are quite a feature of the prototype, and when they are absolutely central on the model they do very much add something.  But still, they do indeed need to function correctly and not impair upon the otherwise largely faultless performance.  

 

Al

 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by YesTor

[Jack374]

4 hours ago, YesTor said:

Oh yeah, where is that Rolls-Royce engineer when you need him...?  

 

I'm sure he was here somewhere.................. 

 

I'll reiterate my tuppence worth, which I've said already when the axlebox cover issue first reared its ugly head.

 

I don't think the solution Hattons have gone for could ever convince me. By nature, 00 gauge wheel sets need lots of sideplay to get round curves, and not even train set ones, as you'd be surprised how much sideplay is needed on a Co-Co bogie even to negotiate 3rd or 4th radius curves. Having seen samples of Hattons' 66 running before now, the axle box sticks out from the bogie frame by a noticeable amount, which looks odd. And this is before I knew of the glue issues...

 

I still maintain that (IMHO) only moulded (non-rotating) axlebox covers or ones which are captive in the bogie frame will capture the look fully. See below a quick MS Paint drawing showing what I mean. In the proposed case, the cover is captive and free to rotate, and the axle is free to move horizontally inside the cover to allow sideplay. This requires no glue at all, it will always be flush with the bogie frame and it requires no axle modification from Hattons' current design and so would require only a new axlebox cover and new bogie frame moulds to solve the issue completely.

 

 

Just my thoughts on the issue.

 

Jack.

[atom3624]

I actually admire the idea of getting the AB's to rotate - it's a nice idea.

 

I do agree, on some sharper radius curves they can protrude more than could be considered 'prototypical', by quite some way.

 

Moulded in / captive separate piece AB's would 'maintain the look', but lose that originality.

 

Totally re-seating the wheelsets is a little worrying if necessary - I don't doubt yours worked as said, but it is extreme.

 

I LOVE this 66, but it does appear a little more development might have been required to recognise this and eradicate it - seating, AB cover holes, whatever ...

 

Al.

[Fiskersham]

On 27/03/2020 at 09:24, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

Just a quick question - DC or DCC?

 

With DCC there's a setting for "train mode", which turns the rear reds off. Maybe this is on by accident?

Try turning F20 (train mode) off.

 

May also be worth turning F21 on. This is parking mode, so it'll show if the LEDs are at least getting power.

Thanks for this.  I have the DCC Sound version.  I've opened up the loco (quite a daunting exercise in itself!) and checked the switches and these are as required.  No matter what I do, the red LEDs don't work at the driving end.  As you say, there is train mode and this works with the red LEDs on the non-driving end, so must be a fault unfortunately.

[Fiskersham]

Just now, Fiskersham said:

Thanks for this.  I have the DCC Sound version.  I've opened up the loco (quite a daunting exercise in itself!) and checked the switches and these are as required.  No matter what I do, the red LEDs don't work at the driving end.  As you say, there is train mode and this works with the red LEDs on the non-driving end, so must be a fault unfortunately.

Sorry, I should have added, they don't work in parking mode either, hence my conclusion about it being a fault in my case.

[TomScrut]

On 29/03/2020 at 06:43, YesTor said:

It's pretty clear as to why even only one single misaligned cover could create running issues...

 

 

Looking at your photos on the PC I would hazard a guess that one of the issues is that the outer bogie frame does not line up with the gearbox (and therefore the axles).

 

Is the gearbox bottom cover the same moulding as the outer bogie frame to at least allow some sort of alignment? Or is it more like a Hornby class 60 where the outer bogie is a surround that clips on afterwards and can hold very little relationship between the wheels and the bogie frame?

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 28/03/2020 at 17:30, TomScrut said:

 

The problem you refer to, is that the squeaking sound?

 

A bit.

And that it started slow but then sped up, like the cogs were a bit too greasy.

 

Ran it on the rolling road for an hour (30 mins each direction) and it didn't do it today when I startes it off so I think the problem has cured itself.

 

 

Mine shed another axle box today (3 in total).

I've noticed that most of my boxes are sticking out at different lengths but I'm not entirely sure how far back they're supposed to be pushed on. Some have gaps on the middle of the wheels, yet other axle boxes are pushed on quite far so there's no gap.

 

My problem is that I'm fairly kack handed so don't want to particularly attempt any repairs until I know exactly what to do - maybe with photos.

 

If Hattons offered a free returns/redelivery then it would be much simpler.

[Pre Grouping fan]

2 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

My problem is that I'm fairly kack handed so don't want to particularly attempt any repairs until I know exactly what to do - maybe with photos.

 

Don't know if this helps, Hattons posted a video on how to reattach the axleboxes after the first fee were released last year. 

 

[john new]

I now have my 66957 and it runs, no glue spots and so far (fingers crossed) all the axle boxes have covers. However, could someone post a list of the Tier 1 & 2 locomotives as I have no idea which one mine is for checking some of the CV settings. I doubt I am alone.

 

Rotating axle-boxes - someone earlier asked is it a gimmick? From normal viewing distance I can't tell they are rotating so arguably yes.

[Sir TophamHatt]

I see what the other poster means about the axles not particularly lining up.

 

This is one side of mine:

 

[TomScrut]

Looks like 66789 is the most popular model so far from people's posts on here and Facebook. I'd hazard a guess the next batch may change that given it is all celebs.

[YesTor]

6 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Looking at your photos on the PC I would hazard a guess that one of the issues is that the outer bogie frame does not line up with the gearbox (and therefore the axles).

 

Is the gearbox bottom cover the same moulding as the outer bogie frame to at least allow some sort of alignment? Or is it more like a Hornby class 60 where the outer bogie is a surround that clips on afterwards and can hold very little relationship between the wheels and the bogie frame?

 

On the models I've seen there's no problem with the outer bogie frames lining up with the gearbox assembly.  The problem appears to be no more complex really than the axlebox covers being glued in skew-whiff. 

 

Yes, the gearbox bottom cover is indeed part of the same moulding as the outer bogie frame - standard configuration of a clip at each end .  I know what you mean with regard to the Hornby 60, as that can result in the outer frame looking as though it's floating around out of alignment, so to speak, but the Hattons 66 isn't like that at all.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

I see what the other poster means about the axles not particularly lining up.

 

This is one side of mine:

 

 

I could be wrong, but part of your issue there might be that you have the centre axle non-supported while the two outer axles are carrying all of the weight of the loco...

 

Best
Al

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by YesTor

[Br60066]

1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

I see what the other poster means about the axles not particularly lining up.

 

This is one side of mine:

 

My one was like that but on the front axle. If your brave enough to take the bottom plate off and reseat the axles all the way down in their slots it appears to solve it .

 

Be warned though it's not easy and will require you removing all the axle boxes to free the axles from the frames then reattach the axle boxes square when reassembled.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Br60066
spacing

[john new]

4 hours ago, john new said:

I now have my 66957 and it runs, no glue spots and so far (fingers crossed) all the axle boxes have covers. However, could someone post a list of the Tier 1 & 2 locomotives as I have no idea which one mine is for checking some of the CV settings. I doubt I am alone.

 

Rotating axle-boxes - someone earlier asked is it a gimmick? From normal viewing distance I can't tell they are rotating so arguably yes.

 

After a bit of running backwards and forwards on my short shunting plank I have noticed a slight wobble but for the moment happy to live with that. My first sound loco so have a lot to learn, volume setting for a starter, it is a bit loud for inside the house.

 

Slow running seems very good, weird though is its running through my reverse curves over the yard throat points, at slow speeds (3 or less set on my Powercab) it derails on several of the routes but going though the same route a bit faster it is fine. This is the converse of what I anticipated. May be an issue with my track as this is a bigger beast than normally runs on it (longer, heavier and a Co-Co not Bo-Bo or smaller). However, it is the Society engine, so despite being far too modern for the layout this was a must have. One to look into further, luckily not yet ballasted the track so scope to tinker.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by john new
Typos corrected, extra note added.

[Dicky L]

Time for a positive post. 

 

I am absolutely delighted with my 4 locos. 

 

here’s a video i made earlier. 

 

 

[159220]

9 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

If Hattons offered a free returns/redelivery then it would be much simpler.

 

They do, well, returned mine. Best if I do not get into the reasons why, but, I shall be waiting for Bachmann  to offer a re-tool in the next few or so years and perhaps in the meantime, re-buying my old Bachmann 66s off eBay.

 

It is your consumer right to only cover post for the delivery, if the product is at fault (Consumer Rights). They sent me a Collect+ label.

Edited March 30, 2020 by 159220

[big jim]

Don’t see why Bachmann would retool, nowt wrong with it (in my eyes) 

 

I have 30+ of them from the first issue right through to the likes of evening star from the later batches

 

I’m glad some people decided to dump them on eBay on the strength of the hype over, at the time, the unseen hattons model, picked up some right bargains over the last few months! 

[Cheshire Lines.]

I would just like to thank YesTor for his post and photographs which have really helped me.

First the disappointment - my 66 789 arrived with one of the yellow larger steps and one of the small black steps missing from the front and one of the smaller battery boxes detached. Fortunately as the steps were on the spare aprons in the detail bag I was able to replace them.
When it came to running, mine had a horrendous wobble. On closer examination of the loco on a flat surface I could see that not all the wheels were touching the ground - see first photo. Following what YesTor had done I identified 5 axle boxes that didn’t seem to align very well and removed them. All had glue over them and one in particular - the one at the bottom of the 2nd photo had lumpy glue all over it - once I cleaned them up and replaced them, the loco sits with all whees on the ground and the wobble has gone !
Clearly the glue around the axle boxes wasn’t allowing the bogie to sit as it should have done and caused wobbling due to the uneven glue on the AB shaft.

 

Now the good - It is a fantastic model - delightful infact when you look at all the pipe details, cab interior, overall heft and general presence of the loco. In particular the lighting and the sound are stand out features - the ability to switch off the rear lights and have the cab light extinguish when the loco moves are brilliant. I also love the way the wheel squeal works.

 

All in all it is a stunning model, I just wish I hadn't had to replace missing parts and take apart the axle boxes which did take the initial shine off, but now very happy with it.

 

 

[TomScrut]

7 hours ago, big jim said:

Don’t see why Bachmann would retool, nowt wrong with it (in my eyes) 

 

I have 30+ of them from the first issue right through to the likes of evening star from the later batches

 

I’m glad some people decided to dump them on eBay on the strength of the hype over, at the time, the unseen hattons model, picked up some right bargains over the last few months! 

 

The only thing I think they could do with doing to it is improving the lighting functionality, such as making ends separately controllable. But that's just a few circuit boards, a lot smaller undertaking than the whole thing. Edit, and the air dam too actually, the Bachmann one kinda sucks really.

 

Whilst I am excited for my Hattons ones to turn up today, and I did sell two Bachmann ones leading up to this release (mostly because they were ones I wasn't that fussed about rather than jumping ship) the two Bachmann ones I have won't be put in the cupboard. I may look to modify the lighting (I don't even know if this is possible) but since they are the rarer end of the scale (NRM Evening Star and Harry Beck) I don't know if this will devalue them a lot.

Edited March 31, 2020 by TomScrut

[Wolf of Badenoch 87]

Thanks to Cheshire Lines and YT for very useful posts. When you refitted the axle boxes did you glue them in?

[The Black Hat]

13 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Looks like 66789 is the most popular model so far from people's posts on here and Facebook. I'd hazard a guess the next batch may change that given it is all celebs.

Is that the ones of Royal Scotsman, CEMEX, etc or there more to follow?

[Erixtar1992]

8 hours ago, big jim said:

Don’t see why Bachmann would retool, nowt wrong with it (in my eyes) 

 

I have 30+ of them from the first issue right through to the likes of evening star from the later batches

 

I’m glad some people decided to dump them on eBay on the strength of the hype over, at the time, the unseen hattons model, picked up some right bargains over the last few months! 

agreed. Plus spend a small bit of time fitting some LEDs for marker lights and they look spot on. Im fairly glad i waited before ordering a hattons version, after buying their RHTT and having bits fall off so easily i was unsuprised by these,  they look good but need a bit of love it seems.  
 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Erixtar1992