Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[TomScrut]

4 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Would love Evening Star and Harry Beck (LT Map livery).

Problem is both these have been done by Bachmann and somewhere Hattons said they were going to try to not repeat Bachmann models...

 

I think it may depend. There are some limited edition Bachmanns that fetch a lot of money second hand, so demand should be there. 66718, 720, 721 are three I can think of.

[classy52]

Hattons are there to make money & not be charitable towards other manufacturers especially Bachmann considering they don't supply them anymore because of their hissy fit over Hattons doing the 66.

I'm sure Hattons will do their research on what will sell and supply accordingly whether or not Bachmann did them in the past or not.

[Dicky L]

5 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hi DIcky L,

We've worked closely with Freightliner and the original paint suppliers to confirm the correct shade of orange used on the real life 66623 and this is what we have used when creating the colour layouts.

As well as the images on our product listings we showed the sample live on our YouTube channel just after it arrived which shows the model in a more natural light.

Cheers

Dave
 

 

 

Thanks for the reply Dave.

 

First and foremost I am a massive fan of the Hattons Class 66, So much so that when all of my orders are complete I will own 10 sound fitted versions. The model really is a game changer and anyone who lets some of the minor issues with these deter them from buying one is missing out on something  great. 

 

Moving onto my concerns about 66623 I have yet to see any videos or photos that suggest that the the shade of Orange is correct or for  that matter even remotely close. I think the shade used is very accurate for Freightliners 66413 which is much lighter than all of their others. 

 

I really want you to get 66623 right and I would be delighted for you to prove me wrong. The request for you to place your production sample next to the Hornby model would go some way to giving a clear indication on this. I accept that Hornby themselves may not have got the deeper Orange 100% correct, although regrettably my gut feeling is they are a whole lot closer to it than your version. 

 

I have voted with my wallet on this model and Hattons have my support. This is just one particular version of the model that I really want you to get right, I have no wish to have it repainted unless it’s absolutely necessary. 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Dicky L
spelling correction

[Shoey]

Hopefully this will help. Photo of Hornby class 66623 is taken from Hattons website to compare their own 66623 in the same lighting conditions. Photos of the prototypes taken from google images. I’ve not personally seen the Hornby 66623 but if Dicky L is wanting to compare the Hattons to Hornby’s version as the colour is close to the prototype, then hopefully Hattons will have it pretty close too as they both look very similar in the 2 pictures of the models.

[Grizz]

6 hours ago, classy52 said:

Hattons are there to make money & not be charitable towards other manufacturers especially Bachmann considering they don't supply them anymore because of their hissy fit over Hattons doing the 66.

I'm sure Hattons will do their research on what will sell and supply accordingly whether or not Bachmann did them in the past or not.

TOTALLY, go Hattons, sick of big boys monopolies. Without organisations prepared to take risk we’d still be stuck with Lima and Hornby toys. Shame Covid has Fudged Up this whole situation. I bought US Proto locos years and years ago because I wanted Detailed all wheel drive locos that actually worked and were reliable.  When at the same time time the UK market was stuck with same old same old  Crappy junk toys. Every show I ever went to had the same old over priced recycled junk. Just because it has a printed livery don’t make it any good. I still have crappy Lima class 33s because that was all I could get at the time, with rubbish Pan Cake motors. Garbage, 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Grizz

[Grizz]

Also Go Heljan DK. Without Heljan’s efforts we’d be stuck with Lima and Hornby 47s. Yeah and I know that their 47 was on Steriods....

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, classy52 said:

Hattons are there to make money & not be charitable towards other manufacturers especially Bachmann considering they don't supply them anymore because of their hissy fit over Hattons doing the 66.

I'm sure Hattons will do their research on what will sell and supply accordingly whether or not Bachmann did them in the past or not.

 

You need to remember that ALL 66 liveries are the intellectual property of the relevant FOC companies and explicit permission is required from said companies legal department before a model manufacturer starts releasing them in model form.

 

Now, while in most cases, the companies involved are usually quite happy for multiple manufacturers to use their  liveries, it doesn't follow that it is always the case. Drax for example were extremely restrictive when it came to releasing models of their Bio-mas wagons for example.

 

Thus its quite possible that Hattons could end up NOT being able to release duplicates of Bachmann locos for legal reasons, however much folk want them too.

[Dicky L]

45 minutes ago, Shoey said:

Hopefully this will help. Photo of Hornby class 66623 is taken from Hattons website to compare their own 66623 in the same lighting conditions. Photos of the prototypes taken from google images. I’ve not personally seen the Hornby 66623 but if Dicky L is wanting to compare the Hattons to Hornby’s version as the colour is close to the prototype, then hopefully Hattons will have it pretty close too as they both look very similar in the 2 pictures of the models.

 

 

Thanks for posting that. That gives me a bit more optimism on the subject. The photo posted on here mid march of the 2 real locos head to head showed a massive difference between the  2 and started the alarm bells ringing. I will sit tight, shut up and see what the 29th June brings. 

[TomScrut]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

You need to remember that ALL 66 liveries are the intellectual property of the relevant FOC companies and explicit permission is required from said companies legal department before a model manufacturer starts releasing them in model form.

 

Now, while in most cases, the companies involved are usually quite happy for multiple manufacturers to use their  liveries, it doesn't follow that it is always the case. Drax for example were extremely restrictive when it came to releasing models of their Bio-mas wagons for example.

 

Thus its quite possible that Hattons could end up NOT being able to release duplicates of Bachmann locos for legal reasons, however much folk want them too.

 

A lot of GBRF and FL celebs have been duplicated already between Hornby and Hattons or Bachmann. So one would suppose they don't have a problem with it. It will depend on whether there is some exclusivity agreement on particular locos done as limited runs. I don't think Hornby have done any of the locos that were exclusive limited editions from Bachmann for example.

 

I think the Biomass wagons are a completely different situation as that's just Drax with their wagons, not one of the main operators who have been doing this for years with models

Edited May 22, 2020 by TomScrut

[rob D2]

Not only permission, but a large bank transfer .

 

I’ d wager Drax would be up for any positive publicity , massive power stations don’t have the best image these days 

[cairnsroadworks]

10 hours ago, Shoey said:

Hopefully this will help. Photo of Hornby class 66623 is taken from Hattons website to compare their own 66623 in the same lighting conditions. Photos of the prototypes taken from google images. I’ve not personally seen the Hornby 66623 but if Dicky L is wanting to compare the Hattons to Hornby’s version as the colour is close to the prototype, then hopefully Hattons will have it pretty close too as they both look very similar in the 2 pictures of the models.

Thanks for the post Shoey. This confirms my suspicions that it’s going to be wrong. The Hornby one is the original pale colour only carried by 66413. The problem with your comparison pictures is that the one of 413 is over contrasted - the yellow on your pic of 413 is darker than on The pic 623 and we know they are the same shade.
 

There is no debate that 413 and 623 are different shades of orange In real life; we know they are as 413 was painted wrong. The orange on 623 Is the same as Loadhaul or Strathclyde PTE orange. 

 

Thanks again for posting the pics though - very helpful. 

[TomScrut]

23 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Not only permission, but a large bank transfer .

 

The money/rights side of it is something I am keen to learn more about. For example as you say a fee will almost certainly be paid for use of liveries. Likewise to the manufacturers of the item being modelled I'd expect.

 

So as is the case with most of this stuff copyright/TMs/IP protection is only any good if you're able to enforce it. So in the case of older designs from the BR or big 4 era, one would expect that there wouldn't be any costs here as the owners of the design won't be there to try and do anything about it?

 

Hornby doing celebs for £75 RRP there won't be much more than a few quid per loco. But then if they make a few thousand it's still maybe £10k-20k tops for an entire batch? What is then an interesting thought (I think) is how does that compare to the additional cost of repainting a loco in a special livery assuming it was going to be painted anyway? And if it's like some of them with multiple versions of the same (Evening Star, Biffa, Cemex, BR Blue, ONE to name a few) I have to think that the operator might actually make money out of doing different liveries. Especially with Cemex, Biffa and ONE given they'll probably have had some money from the brand to do the livery. That then leads onto are the fees greater on these locos as they have the operator and the brand on the loco to appease? Or will only one of the two own the rights to the livery?

 

And then in the case of the 66 one would expect GM to have had a payout at some point although I would expect this to be at the tooling stage?

[7013]

Very difficult to compare colours as in the photos of the models and the real thing.

The models look like they are shot in a studio, the studio lighting is bright and with my photographers hat on I would say they are over exposed somewhat. The prototype shots are under cloudy skies which give a very flat lighting. 

To get a truer comparison you would have to photograph both models and prototypes under the same lighting conditions.

Colour is a very subjective thing, colour perception is controlled by the rods and cones in the back of our eyes, how many of these we have determines how we perceive colour, for the most part we see colours the same as others. Colour blind people have different perception problems, and some people see tones better than others, and our brain sometimes  interprets colours differently than others....Are you still with me? As we generally see colours the same it is only when there is a glaringly obvious mistake that most people will see it. The fact that Hattons worked with Freightliner and the paint manufacturer to get the colours right rather poo poo's the idea that they have got it wrong, and it may be an individual perception problem.

[classy52]

I think Hattons have got the colour correct on 66623, please see prototype photo below which looks exactly like the model in the photos above.

 

[Steadfast]

For anyone that's not seen it, here's a Flickr link to a pic of 413 alongside 419, illustrating right and wrong. 

66419 is the same shade as 623, I've had them sat side by side in the yard!

 

Jo

[newbryford]

28 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

The money/rights side of it is something I am keen to learn more about. For example as you say a fee will almost certainly be paid for use of liveries. Likewise to the manufacturers of the item being modelled I'd expect.

 

So as is the case with most of this stuff copyright/TMs/IP protection is only any good if you're able to enforce it. So in the case of older designs from the BR or big 4 era, one would expect that there wouldn't be any costs here as the owners of the design won't be there to try and do anything about it?

 

Hornby doing celebs for £75 RRP there won't be much more than a few quid per loco. But then if they make a few thousand it's still maybe £10k-20k tops for an entire batch? What is then an interesting thought (I think) is how does that compare to the additional cost of repainting a loco in a special livery assuming it was going to be painted anyway? And if it's like some of them with multiple versions of the same (Evening Star, Biffa, Cemex, BR Blue, ONE to name a few) I have to think that the operator might actually make money out of doing different liveries. Especially with Cemex, Biffa and ONE given they'll probably have had some money from the brand to do the livery. That then leads onto are the fees greater on these locos as they have the operator and the brand on the loco to appease? Or will only one of the two own the rights to the livery?

 

And then in the case of the 66 one would expect GM to have had a payout at some point although I would expect this to be at the tooling stage?

 

The BR symbol is owned by The Office of Rail Regulation as successor to the BRB

LoadHaul,Mainline and Transrail - I think - are owned by DB as historically they became EWS.

 

Locos are painted in company colours or carry associated names as part of a wider commercial deal. I doubt they pay the FOC to carry the brand.

 

[TomScrut]

5 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Locos are painted in company colours or carry associated names as part of a wider commercial deal.

 

Good point hadn't thought of that!

 

5 minutes ago, newbryford said:

The BR symbol is owned by The Office of Rail Regulation as successor to the BRB

 

And would they likely to be wanting to chase every RTR model with a BR logo on it for royalties? Not arguing just asking the question.

 

6 minutes ago, newbryford said:

LoadHaul,Mainline and Transrail - I think - are owned by DB as historically they became EWS.

 

That would also be interesting then in terms of repainting preserved locos. 33063 is in mainline livery at the moment.

[Dicky L]

I am adjourning the  jaffagate enquiry for now personally. 

 

Here’s a photo of a really nice model by Hattons 

[TomScrut]

2 minutes ago, Dicky L said:

jaffagate enquiry for now personally

 

Until it gets here there isn't really any sure fire way to be sure is there?

[rob D2]

6 minutes ago, Dicky L said:

I am adjourning the  jaffagate enquiry for now personally. 

 

Here’s a photo of a really nice model by Hattons 

Looks good on your layout ! Which is cool as you’ve invested the GDP of a small African country in them !

[truffy]

58 minutes ago, 7013 said:

Very difficult to compare colours as in the photos of the models and the real thing.

The models look like they are shot in a studio, the studio lighting is bright and with my photographers hat on I would say they are over exposed somewhat. The prototype shots are under cloudy skies which give a very flat lighting. 

Not to mention the contentious issue of colour scaling.

[No Decorum]

13 hours ago, Grizz said:

Also Go Heljan DK. Without Heljan’s efforts we’d be stuck with Lima and Hornby 47s. Yeah and I know that their 47 was on Steriods....

I don't forget that Heljan produced "Falcon" and just look what that led to!

[cairnsroadworks]

2 hours ago, 7013 said:

Very difficult to compare colours as in the photos of the models and the real thing.

The models look like they are shot in a studio, the studio lighting is bright and with my photographers hat on I would say they are over exposed somewhat. The prototype shots are under cloudy skies which give a very flat lighting. 

To get a truer comparison you would have to photograph both models and prototypes under the same lighting conditions.

Colour is a very subjective thing, colour perception is controlled by the rods and cones in the back of our eyes, how many of these we have determines how we perceive colour, for the most part we see colours the same as others. Colour blind people have different perception problems, and some people see tones better than others, and our brain sometimes  interprets colours differently than others....Are you still with me? As we generally see colours the same it is only when there is a glaringly obvious mistake that most people will see it. The fact that Hattons worked with Freightliner and the paint manufacturer to get the colours right rather poo poo's the idea that they have got it wrong, and it may be an individual perception problem.

Agree absolutely that it’s impossible to compare photos but the shot posted of 413 and 623 coupled together shows the difference in colour.
 

I’ll happily be proved wrong when they arrive. The fact that Hattons worked with Freightliner is great unless they were provided with the shade used on 66413 not the remainder of the locos painted subsequently in the darker shade. 

[armleyroad]

On first impression, my 66704 seems superbly finished. I have only test run it on straight track so far, there is a wobble for sure, I may modify it so that the covers are not connected to axles anymore.

 

I have added 'Shawplan' nameplates, now it just needs weathering for ultimate realism. The DCC lighting functions are a big plus for me...

 

Hattons - I would like to see Metronet 66719, 66718/21 (London) if it's possible to do those older liveries...

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I don't forget that Heljan produced "Falcon" and just look what that led to!

 

Heljan have done all sorts of oddballs that most companies would stay away from haven't they! Falcon, Lion and Kestrel spring to mind.