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Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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4 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Well to be honest i thought we did well getting this to page 66,its now a kick in the butt off twice that so we will be double heading this thread,the 800 page has a bit to go but this one is going to be longer than a paragraph in the understanding a womans manual shortly.

I think we need a ‘WTF?’ voting button. :blink:

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7 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I agree I really don't like the EWS livery! The DB red is smart I think. I think pretty much all the current freight operators have good basic liveries now.

I’m actually nostalgic for it.....the days when wagonload made a resurgence....before wall to wall sheds. We thought they’d just be part of the freight scene...not pretty much the whole .

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5 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Well to be honest i thought we did well getting this to page 66,its now a kick in the butt off twice that so we will be double heading this thread,the 800 page has a bit to go but this one is going to be longer than a paragraph in the understanding a womans manual shortly.

Fantastic ! The pubs must have reopened !

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19 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

Naturally, a forward-thinking ethos is always to be congratulated.  It could be argued that as part of that ethos it is also reasonable to request/hope for/expect new versions of previously issued liveries, if indeed the newer model itself is perceived as being superior to, or at least substantially different from its predecessor.  Moreover, it seems unlikely that producing 'Evening Star', Stobart, Bardon etc liveries again is somehow going to be at the sacrifice of producing other more recent one-off variants, especially in light of the seeming current trend of mass simultaneous releases (37 x Class 66 variations) is to be considered. 

 

Another perspective - If the Hornby Collectors Guide is in any way accurate it would appear that Hornby first released 'Flying Scotsman' back in 1981, and seemingly thirty-one consecutive times since?  It would be a little unfortunate if the 1981 release were the only ever release of such an iconic machine.  Whether any of our favourite 'sheds' will ever fall into similar iconic status is a total unknown (unlikely perhaps... :lol: ), but ultimately whether a livery is the first time or hundredth time produced, any future release is always going to be dependent on a number of conditions being met:

 

  1. Is there sufficient demand for the proposed model?
  2. Do we have permission to reproduce said livery? 
  3. If not then can we obtain permission and is it cost effective to do so?

 

If the answer is "yes" to all of the above questions then there is profit to be made, whether there are previous versions already on the market, or not.  Nothing revelatory in any of the above really - whether it's 'Flying Scotsman', 66779 'Evening Star', or some obscure paint scheme on the back of an ice-cream van, the conditions are always going to be the same. 

 

Best
Al

 

Yes, but like you say we are talking iconic regarding "Flying Scotsman", "Mallard" etc., and agreed A3's, A4's etc., always appear to do well.  Many of less iconic breads are being thrown out by box shifters in all directions.  But the market has changed significantly in recent years.  We have gone from production of thousands to a few hundred of a locomotive. 

 

If its already been done, then there are at least 500 out there, and most Limited Ed's do not sell out upon arrival.  The questions are - how many people still require one and will actually dip their hands in their pockets (they didn't have one first time, for some reason)?  How many will replace their old version (which will have some financial loss) and how many will the likes of Hattons get traded in?  Then like I say, with the London Transport versions - would TFL/ their own museum want to permit another entity to produce one. 

 

Personally, I have quite a few Bachmann examples which I am quite happy with, hence will only add new number/livery versions to my fleet, as appropriate.  

 

Best Regards,

 

C.

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If this subject on the Hattons 66 has been covered before in the previous 131 pages I apologise for raising it here. 

 

This post relates to the factory sound fitted versions of the model of which you will probably know I have one or two. I would also stress this is not in anyway a complaint because the sound does exactly what it should and is in my opinion exceptional. 

 

I use the ECoS Command Station for my layout and the sound decoder reads as Generic NMRA in my controller as per the photo below. Now before anyway asks my ECoS is using the latest firmware. 

 

I was under the impression either rightly or wrongly that the factory fitted sound decoder is a Loksound 5. Hattons themselves refer to the decoder as DCR-SND-66 Suresound Chip with Rail Rumble Speaker. My question here is what do other people’s controllers identify the sound Decoder as, and perhaps more importantly is my controller reading it correctly?
 

 

 

 

 

3C784F46-77D0-4B23-864C-CD4E8CC0272B.jpeg

Edited by Dicky L
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1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

It should be a Loksound V5 MKL.

 

What does CV8 say? If it's 151 is an ESU chip

 

if you look at my photo it’s showing as an ESU chip, that’s not the issue, what I am struggling to understand is why the ECoS is not picking it up as a V5 if indeed it is one. That’s why I am seeking to verify with other people Hattons factory fitted does definitely have a V5. 

 

The photo above reads the chip as generic NMRA, number of CVs 35, Manufacturer ESU (151)

 

The photo below shows how the ECoS reads the Loksound v5 in my class 50, again manufacturer ESU (151) number of CVs 1930

 

 

 

 

850F7986-CB1F-451A-8880-E200AC7243EC.jpeg

Edited by Dicky L
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13 minutes ago, Dicky L said:

 

if you look at my photo it’s showing as an ESU chip, that’s not the issue, what I am struggling to understand is why the ECoS is not picking it up as a V5 if indeed it is one. That’s why I am seeking to verify with other people that have Hattons factory fitted does definitely have a V5. 

 

The photo above reads the chip as generic NMRA, number of CVs 35, Manufacturer ESU (151)

 

The photo below shows how the ECoS reads the Loksound v5 in my class 50, again manufacturer ESU (151) number of CVs 1930

 

 

 

 

850F7986-CB1F-451A-8880-E200AC7243EC.jpeg

 

Sorry I misunderstood.

 

Is your firmware up to date on the ECoS? Might that be a factor? I aren't sure how the ECoS resolves the decoder type but if it uses the info in CV7 to get the firmware version, and then uses that to decide what the chip is then if the FW of the decoder is newer than the FW on the ECoS then it might not work? Just a thought that could be complete rubbish!

 

Have you tried it again? It has only found 35 CVs which won't be right. Almost like it failed for some reason or you had another loco on the track with the same address.

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20 minutes ago, Dicky L said:

 

if you look at my photo it’s showing as an ESU chip, that’s not the issue, what I am struggling to understand is why the ECoS is not picking it up as a V5 if indeed it is one. That’s why I am seeking to verify with other people Hattons factory fitted does definitely have a V5. 

 

The photo above reads the chip as generic NMRA, number of CVs 35, Manufacturer ESU (151)

 

The photo below shows how the ECoS reads the Loksound v5 in my class 50, again manufacturer ESU (151) number of CVs 1930

 

 

Hi Dicky L,

I can confirm the decoder in our sound fitted Class 66s is ESU's latest Loksound V5 sound decoder.

In the Class 66s we have used the ESU's 21MTC "MKL", variation (58449) instead of the more commonly found 21MTC NEM6660 (58419) which you may have fitted in other locomotives. The version we've used allows for additional function control and the operation of lights, detailed inside the manual. I can't say for certain as to whether your controller will identify both different types, but this is very unlikely to have an impact on operation.

We've produced a full video on the subject of sound in our Class 66s that I have linked to below, and further information is also available in the locomotive manual.

Cheers

Dave
 

 

Edited by Hattons Dave
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4 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

I can't say for certain as to whether your controller will identify both different types, but this is very unlikely to have an impact on operation.

 

The CVs are identical as far as I am aware, the only difference is that AUX3 and AUX4 are powered instead of logic level (at socket)

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16 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

Yes, but like you say we are talking iconic regarding "Flying Scotsman", "Mallard" etc., and agreed A3's, A4's etc., always appear to do well.  But the market has changed significantly in recent years.  We have gone from production of thousands to a few hundred of a locomotive. 

 

If its already been done, then there are at least 500 out there, and most Limited Ed's do not sell out upon arrival.  The questions are - how many people still require one and will actually dip their hands in their pockets (they didn't have one first time, for some reason)?  How many will replace their old version (which will have some financial loss) and how many will the likes of Hattons get traded in?  Then like I say, with the London Transport versions - would TFL/ their own museum want to permit another entity to produce one.

 

Yeah, I get all of that and I'm not disagreeing with you at all, in fact I totally agree.  All covered really by:

  1. Is there sufficient demand for the proposed model? 


Obviously it's going to vary case-to-case, eg. whilst everything has limits, logic tells me that there is likely to be more longer-term/ongoing demand for prototypes such as 66779 'Evening Star' than say 66747 in Newell & Wright livery (more of a one-hit wonder perhaps?), and so on and so-forth...

 

 

16 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

The questions are - how many people still require one and will actually dip their hands in their pockets (they didn't have one first time, for some reason)?

 

I kind of stopped buying Bachamann 'sheds' when the limited editions began hitting £180 or so, for what to me already seemed like a model well past its sell-by date, and this was well before Hattons announced their 66.  And for that latter reason I held back on 'Evening Star' - as much as I'd like a model of 66779 - but of course I fully appreciate that not everyone will have done similar...

 

Best
Al 

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2 hours ago, YesTor said:

And for that latter reason I held back on 'Evening Star' - as much as I'd like a model of 66779

 

I jumped on the Bachmann NRM one when Locomotion were selling them at £125. Otherwise I'd have waited in hope.

 

My only other Bachmann 66 is 66721 which I think would be fairly hot property regardless of Hattons doing one (although not at the price I paid for it!)

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3 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hi Dicky L,

I can confirm the decoder in our sound fitted Class 66s is ESU's latest Loksound V5 sound decoder.

In the Class 66s we have used the ESU's 21MTC "MKL", variation (58449) instead of the more commonly found 21MTC NEM6660 (58419) which you may have fitted in other locomotives. The version we've used allows for additional function control and the operation of lights, detailed inside the manual. I can't say for certain as to whether your controller will identify both different types, but this is very unlikely to have an impact on operation.

We've produced a full video on the subject of sound in our Class 66s that I have linked to below, and further information is also available in the locomotive manual.

Cheers

Dave
 

 

 

Thanks for the reply Dave and for confirming that it’s the latest v5.

 

I said in my first post on this subject, I have no operational issues as far as the sound and functions are concerned and I am very happy with it.  I just find it strange that an ESU ECoS Command Station with the latest firmware doesn’t identify it correctly as a ESU V5 decoder.

 

 Any other ECoS users out there have you noticed this?

Edited by Dicky L
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19 minutes ago, Dicky L said:

I just find it strange that an ESU ECoS Command Station with the latest firmware doesn’t identify it correctly as a ESU V5 decoder.

 

The thing is if the ECoS is only picking up 35 CVs on the chip when scanning then that will probably be why it's not working it out.

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56 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

The thing is if the ECoS is only picking up 35 CVs on the chip when scanning then that will probably be why it's not working it out.

How does it detect the type of decoder. CV8 should be manufacturer id (which is normally fine) & CV7 should be version id, but manufacturers don't seem to stick to this, sometimes sharing the values between different versions of decoder.

Does the ECoS simply read these values? I am guessing the LokProgrammer is more accurate so is there another way to identify the decoder?

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4 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

How does it detect the type of decoder. CV8 should be manufacturer id (which is normally fine) & CV7 should be version id, but manufacturers don't seem to stick to this, sometimes sharing the values between different versions of decoder.

Does the ECoS simply read these values? I am guessing the LokProgrammer is more accurate so is there another way to identify the decoder?

 

That's what I thought in my earlier post. But by the sounds of it (as I had a read in the manual since) it also scans all the CVs to see what's there. Maybe for example if they had a LokPilot and LokSound on the same FW (not sure if they do) then they'd possibly look the same without reading the sound CVs.

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2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

How does it detect the type of decoder. CV8 should be manufacturer id (which is normally fine) & CV7 should be version id, but manufacturers don't seem to stick to this, sometimes sharing the values between different versions of decoder.

Does the ECoS simply read these values? I am guessing the LokProgrammer is more accurate so is there another way to identify the decoder?

 

Firstly for clarity I currently have 4 sound fitted locos in my possession right now and all read the same as per the photos I have posted. 

 

I do also own a Lokprogrammer, unfortunately it’s out on loan at the moment about 50 miles away so i can’t currently read the decoders on it to check things out. 

 

You mention CV7, On the ECoS CV7 reads as follows. 

 

 

B7881234-377C-49FA-8D38-53A72FE42A40.jpeg

Edited by Dicky L
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7 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

The CVs are identical as far as I am aware, the only difference is that AUX3 and AUX4 are powered instead of logic level (at socket)

I thought one of the major selling points of the V5 chips were the additional function outputs as standard? The ones I have installed so far have all had them as I have used them.

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12 minutes ago, blueeighties said:

I thought one of the major selling points of the V5 chips were the additional function outputs as standard? The ones I have installed so far have all had them as I have used them.

 

Yes, they still have the 10 function outputs. It's that any output above AUX 4 on either are logic level, not powered on socket (pads on chip are another kettle of fish). From memory, the MKLs have AUX 1-4 and Fwd/Rev lights powered. Non MKL have AUX 1-2 and Fwd/Rev lights powered. Logic level outputs need an op amp buffer on the circuit board to provide the power based on the input from the DCC chip. The only 2 other types of loco I have with more than 4 functions (Dapol 68 and Bachmann 90) work fine with non MKL chips so I'd say needing the MKL is an idiosyncrasy, although I do believe Dapol did some last minute fudging on their circuit boards on the first 68s to make this the case.

 

So for example putting a non MKL in a Hattons 66 makes the daytime lights not work properly IIRC. I have LokPilot V5 MKLs in my Hattons 66s and they behave fine.

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28 minutes ago, Dicky L said:

 

Firstly for clarity I currently have 4 sound fitted locos in my possession right now and all read the same as per the photos I have posted.

 

Have you had more than one attempt at it identifying the chip in your 66?

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48 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Have you had more than one attempt at it identifying the chip in your 66?

 

Yes several times with all 4 of them. I am really hoping some other ECoS users might have the answer to this or at least confirm my findings. 

 

 

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