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Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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9 hours ago, adb968008 said:


class 47 has competition coming from Heljan

class 55 has competition coming from Accurascale

class 45 (assume 44/46) has competition coming from Heljan

class 37 has competition coming from Accurascale

class 66 has competition from Hattons.

 

indeed with a class 40 and 90 from Hornby, all on that list has competition.

You did omit the 03,04, 08, 20, 24, 25, 42, 43, 70, 85... of which only the 03,04,20,43,70 and 85 dont have competition... of that lot i’d say the 20 is the lowest hanging fruit, and its price is quite low compared to all of them.

 

 

I picked out some from a website. Not all models were on stock & available.

Not all mentioned are direct competition either. Hornby's class 90 is not really direct. Hornby's being a 30+ year old tooling, available at a justly lower price.

My point was that Bachmann seemed to have dropped the price of their 66 so as not to compete with Hattons on a cost basis.

 

You knew that though. Were you just trying to annoy me or did you actually have something useful to add?

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On ‎02‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 23:05, YesTor said:

 

Not sure I agree - Hattons have released some great models - the ZZA snowplough for one is outstanding, and the FEA-E flats are superb as well.  And as you say, Kernow have issued more than their fair share of exclusive items, again many of them being very fine indeed.  Locomotives are definitely in a different league though, with there being so many more things to get right - or indeed wrong! 

 

Still, competition is healthy and ultimately good for us modellers, after all when do you figure Bachmann might have gotten around to dragging their 66 up to new standards?   :rolleyes:    In fairness, all manufacturers release more than their share of blunders - Hornby, Heljan, Dapol, Bachmann, all of them.  It could be argued that the only thing that any of the main manufacturers need to do, by definition, is "manufacture" - in which case they should be getting it spot-on all of the time, because that's all they do, right?  It's a fact of life however, that no manufacturer, retailer/manufacturer cottage industry manufacturer etc etc, is going to get everything right all of the time, sadly.

 

Al 

Off topic I know but as the FEA's have been mentioned,  I had two delivered from Hattons last week and both have QC issues.  One has a buffer completely missing and the other had one broken and one slightly damaged.  Spoke to Hattons via live chat last Monday, initially advised me to post them back but the process involved seemed to be a bit of a hassle to me, so I suggested if possible could they send out some replacement buffers (don't mind fixing them myself).  Waiting for the buffers at this stage.

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I'm thinking of taking a gamble in getting Freightliner 66623 with sound as Hattons have more than 10 in stock but lost track of whether it was decided if it has the correct shade of orange or not, I really don't remember the outcome of that discussion thus if someone can confirm either yes or no that would be great...cheers.

I have also noticed that Cemex & One with sound are listed as both on order and due in stock between September & December 2020, I thought they had all arrived already and that was it???

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3 hours ago, irishmail said:

Off topic I know but as the FEA's have been mentioned,  I had two delivered from Hattons last week and both have QC issues.  One has a buffer completely missing and the other had one broken and one slightly damaged. 

 

That's true, I believe I also had a couple in the past that had loose buffers, but then I had Dapol FEA-B and Dapol IDA flats with the very same issue.  Loose buffers - whilst not great - are hardly a new phenomena, unfortunately.

 

Al

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Received 66623 and 66780 and have tested them both today. No issues per se to see without running them. When running 3 of 24 axel boxes fell off, now back on. No big deal. Excellent running, sounds and lighting as expected. So for me I have had 100% success with my 3 Hattons 66 locos.

 

As for the colour of 66623 I would say it is wrong but it isn’t anywhere near as light as 66413. I’m certainly happy with it.

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29 minutes ago, Andy7 said:

Received 66623 and 66780 and have tested them both today. No issues per se to see without running them. When running 3 of 24 axel boxes fell off, now back on. No big deal. Excellent running, sounds and lighting as expected. So for me I have had 100% success with my 3 Hattons 66 locos.

 

As for the colour of 66623 I would say it is wrong but it isn’t anywhere near as light as 66413. I’m certainly happy with it.

Hi Andy, any chance you can pick me out the winning lottery numbers please :)

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18 hours ago, cairnsroadworks said:

I’ve asked repeatedly on a variety of forums but the only response was that they got the paint spec from Freightliner, which although is fine doesn’t say if it was the darker or the lighter shade, and evidence points that it was the lighter one. 

i spoke to hattons yesterday and they admitted that the colour is wrong and have told me to return the loco to them for a refund

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Hi all,

Just to clarify some of the above posts.

 

We've checked back through the correspondence when preparing the colour layouts for 66623 and can confirm the Pantone code supplied related to the darker shade used on the majority of locos repainted in this colourscheme as opposed to the initial repaints using the lighter shade.

The photos on our listings currently aren't the best and I'll make sure these get changed in the next day or so.

I apologise for our CX team member who was mistaken on this and I've made sure our team is advised accordingly.

Cheers

Dave

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1 hour ago, Triumph1050 said:

Hi Andy, any chance you can pick me out the winning lottery numbers please :)

I can assure you if that were the case I would already be a millionaire. 
 

As for the darker orange colour being correct it isn’t to look at! It may well be the correct Pantone but on the mini loco it certainly looks too light.

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10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I picked out some from a website. Not all models were on stock & available.

Not all mentioned are direct competition either. Hornby's class 90 is not really direct. Hornby's being a 30+ year old tooling, available at a justly lower price.

My point was that Bachmann seemed to have dropped the price of their 66 so as not to compete with Hattons on a cost basis.

 

You knew that though. Were you just trying to annoy me or did you actually have something useful to add?

 

Reducing price so as not to be in competition ? I’m sure they reduced it because they were feeling generous ? Model prices rarely come down, if it wasn't to compete, in an era of price increases, then why else ?

 

The Bachmann 66 is c16 years old, class 47 is c14 years, 37 is c16, 55 is c18...

They aren't spring chickens either, I’m not noticing price drops there, but it is noteworthy the ramp up of liveries, my guess is they were just sweating it out, and successfully given they've mostly gone, in target quantities.
 

i’m missing your point, why would the Bachmann class 66 be £150 if the Hattons one didn't exist ? - It was £169 before it was announced, if it was popular as class 37 /47 i’d imagine it’d be closer to £189 by now if the Hattons class 66 wasn't about, and no i’m not trying to annoy you, I just didn't get your point and thought i’d share why i didn't get it, I was hoping you’d explain rather than lose your rag.

 

As much as I like Bachmann models, I find they are masters of there craft and no fools. I am sure will use whatever techniques they need to accomplish their aims, here and in China, using Business, Technical and Local Supply networks as needed.
 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I’m not sure those dates are right - first incarnation of Bachmann 37 was 2003, the funny shaped nose jobby of which I still have one 

admittedly vague, I dont have catalogs to hand i’m using ModelRailwayDatabase as source, though time between announcements then as today were subject to vagarities of time... thing is they aren't “new” in context of the 66, there all a similar age.

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

was £169 before it was announced

 

I think that pretty much equates to £150 (just less) with the 15% discount pretty much any retailer applies if they want to be competitive on price. Hatton's haven't discounted theirs from launch whereas everything else more or less is discounted from launch and therefore RRPs are not really that relevant IMO.

 

But yes the reduction in price is directly to do with the Hattons one, as you say there are a lot of locos (from pretty much everyone) that seem to be getting dearer and dearer and the tooling and features getting older and more obsolete. If they can get away with charging it they will.

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6 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

But yes the reduction in price is directly to do with the Hattons one, as you say there are a lot of locos (from pretty much everyone) that seem to be getting dearer and dearer and the tooling and features getting older and more obsolete. If they can get away with charging it they will.

 

"Charging what they can get away with" is not unique to model railways.

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12 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

"Charging what they can get away with" is not unique to model railways.


There is the irony.

Salesman’s job is to extract your perception of value, by gauging your interest to the product. The higher the interest, the more you’ll pay.

 

In negotiation, the buyers position is to declare minimal interest and express other preferences to bring the price down.

 

Then theres this forum, full of fawning fans drooling over manufacturers plans, talking of idyll’s with multiples of loco types and expressing disdain over lack of, or older competing models, in front of an audience crawling with manufacturers employees at all levels from design through to sales and retailers, who take notes and make plans.
An the irony, as soon as the model arrives, the potential customers rip it pieces for the tiniest of issues, pretending they've no interest in it at all.. but the price and qty was set long ago, and the grumblers pre-ordered buy it anyway.. as they were seen coming in the fawning stage.

 

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

i’m missing your point, why would the Bachmann class 66 be £150 if the Hattons one didn't exist ? - It was £169 before it was announced, if it was popular as class 37 /47 i’d imagine it’d be closer to £189 by now if the Hattons class 66 wasn't about, and no i’m not trying to annoy you, I just didn't get your point and thought i’d share why i didn't get it, I was hoping you’d explain rather than lose your rag.

 

 

In order to compete, Bachmann have dropped the price of their own 66 to provide another option at a slightly lower price point.

 

You've used Hornby's 90 as an example of competition for Bachmann's one, but this is different. Hornby's is an uprated model from the 1980s. It has 1 bogie drive, a basic level of detail, no lighting. It has a good body shape which makes it a good base for upgrading but this involves a significant amount of work (chassis, lighting, end valances, pantograph). The chassis in particular is not a cheap upgrade, but if you just want a cheaper 90, then it works out of the box. Many would simply not bother, instead opting for Heljan's 86 (hopefully improved when it arrives), Bachmann's 85 & Hornby's 87.

Bachmann's 90 gives modellers another choice of a well-detailed model but at a premium price.

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:


There is the irony.

Salesman’s job is to extract your perception of value, by gauging your interest to the product. The higher the interest, the more you’ll pay.

 

In negotiation, the buyers position is to declare minimal interest and express other preferences to bring the price down.

 

Then theres this forum, full of fawning fans drooling over manufacturers plans, talking of idyll’s with multiples of loco types and expressing disdain over lack of, or older competing models, in front of an audience crawling with manufacturers employees at all levels from design through to sales and retailers, who take notes and make plans.
An the irony, as soon as the model arrives, the potential customers rip it pieces for the tiniest of issues, pretending they've no interest in it at all.. but the price and qty was set long ago, and the grumblers pre-ordered buy it anyway.. as they were seen coming in the fawning stage.

 

I am interested in, and happy enough to talk about supercars, but it doesn't mean I can afford to have one, or I would buy one if I could afford it.

 

Just because people say things on here doesn't mean the manufacturers see them coming or anything. All declarations of interest on here by most people I would expect could have the caveat "at the right price" rather than "at any cost". Nobody orders it without knowing how much it is going to cost them, it is simply that they would rather buy it in advance at an acceptable price to avoid disappointment rather than wait in hope that the price reduces rather than it sells out.

 

I pre order the stuff where it is specifically something I want/have been waiting for, and some stuff I am on the fence on I wait and see. Nothing I have on pre order is at a price higher than I was willing to pay, so I don't feel I have been "done", especially if it's a bag of rubbish it can go back anyway. I want a red DB loco, my thoughts are at the moment is to wait for the Bachmann 66 and the 2 Hornby 60s to turn up and to wait a while see if any get reduced. I can't see all 3 selling out quickly.

Edited by TomScrut
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I've been quietly watching discussion. Just for completeness, my own experience summarised: Four sheds pre-ordered; one from batch one, three from batch two.

 

66789 Large Logo with sound received back at the start of the year (or thereabouts) - it was a heck of a wobbler out of the box, but faultless otherwise. I've kept it and will (but haven't yet) remove the axle boxes, trim them and glue them so they no longer rotate. Disappointed to see this design flaw, but I'm confident in the model otherwise. 

 

I did consider reigning in the other pre-order a bit based on the AB issue, but was pleased to see announcement of a delay in production (to Q4 ish) and I hoped this would mean a proper fix (and I mean proper - the only full solution is a complete redesign with the AB held captive by the bogie frame; not the axle).

 

Disappointed therefore to unexpectedly have these arrive in July - Indeed, I was away with the family. I wasn't expecting any expensive deliveries, and so had to send my sister-in-law around to put the parcel somewhere safe until I returned (which inevitably ended up with me having to admit that I'd bought £795-worth of toy trains...!)

 

Pink One, Cemex & Biffa; all with sound. All wobblers to some extent; pink One with a single loose AB. I broke the glue on the remaining eleven with long nosed pliers, and it runs like a dream without them. In good order otherwise, and I'll keep it. Cemex has wonky name plates. More worryingly though, both Cemex and Biffa each have one bogie that pulls upwards at the outer end as they rotate in one direction (I didn't think to check whether they are both at the same end). One and LL don't suffer from this. I'm not inclined to go hunting for the cause, and as a result I suspect I'll return these this week and opt not to replace.

 

James Makin summed up the issue very well in my eyes. Fantastic models, but with a design flaw that affects running - a key requirement! I hope it gets the proper fix it deserves, as the model and Hattons deserve kudos otherwise - Sound and lighting is fantastic.

 

I've a shed full of sheds; perhaps 30 at last count. I'd happily add more, but I'm out for now until I'm confident they'll run properly.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

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Happy with my 66 apart from one issue, it decouples on 2nd radius curves due to lack of coupling hook swinging room in the modern style small couplings. As I may have the opportunity shortly (SWMBO permitting) of laying an outdoor patio layout/test loop* can anyone advise the minimum curvature they will stay coupled at?
 

What are they like over PECO 2ft radius points as 3ft would intrude a bit too far into the residual area?

 

* gained a massive amount of free, recycled, plywood as result of a flat roof repair.

 

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What concerns me most at this point is the silence from the manufacturer on the faults.

 

No “ we realise this and that are wrong and we are working on a  solution “,

 

just, “ if you want to return all our customer service team can deal with it “.

 

That’ s not a long term solution, and they are starting to seem a bit out of their depth .

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3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

What concerns me most at this point is the silence from the manufacturer on the faults.

 

No “ we realise this and that are wrong and we are working on a  solution “,

 

just, “ if you want to return all our customer service team can deal with it “.

 

That’ s not a long term solution, and they are starting to seem a bit out of their depth .

Completely agree, it’s not reassuring at all. Has certainly stopped me buying anymore. Look at the likes of accurascale and Heljan, active on the forums and taking criticism, from what I’ve seen the only responses from hattons are either bits of customer advice and advertising of new batches, no responses about the quality issues and design flaws. My experience with the 66s has really knocked my confidence in buying anymore products hattons design. 

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1 hour ago, Class 158 productions said:

Completely agree, it’s not reassuring at all. Has certainly stopped me buying anymore. Look at the likes of accurascale and Heljan, active on the forums and taking criticism, from what I’ve seen the only responses from hattons are either bits of customer advice and advertising of new batches, no responses about the quality issues and design flaws. My experience with the 66s has really knocked my confidence in buying anymore products hattons design. 

 

Accurascale are light years ahead of everyone else atm in regards to communication and engagement within RMWeb but I wouldn't mention Heljan in the same breathe lol.

As I have followed this thread since the beginning Hattons Dave was quite active but granted not since after the release of their 66 and when the issues started to surface he's gone a bit underground with the odd customer service spiel if you have problems with your 66 but agree Hattons need to win back confidence and maybe produce a high level outline of addressing the issues going forward especially if a new batch is to be produced.

Hattons have a visually beautiful and sounding Class 66, and like yourself would have purchased many with sound if it wasn't for the issues thus sort them out & get back on track!

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4 hours ago, rob D2 said:

What concerns me most at this point is the silence from the manufacturer on the faults.

 

No “ we realise this and that are wrong and we are working on a  solution “,

 

just, “ if you want to return all our customer service team can deal with it “.

 

That’ s not a long term solution, and they are starting to seem a bit out of their depth .

Possibly they are having a litigious dialogue with a supplier in either or both the design or manufacturing supply chain over the issue so cannot go public on causes etc., without risk. An example might be a firm saying yes we’ve stuffed up but provided you agree to non-disclosure of the fact it is our fault we will fix it.

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