Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[letterspider]

further to my message above ... can anyone post a side by side comparison of the Hattons and Bachmann 66 please...?

[Class 158 productions]

[TomScrut]

40 minutes ago, letterspider said:

I have heard no complaints on RMWeb about livery

 

There are a few. Colas ends, EWS colour and lettering and then FL orange all spring to mind.

[Andy7]

3 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

Great and useful pics for non owners. 

Before anyone says they compare well, they really are poles apart. The Hattons one is so much better in detail and haulage capacity. For me the reasons for getting 3 Hattons ones was haulage capacity (Bachmann 66 doesn’t have what I require for certain trains I run), detail (Bachmann is ok but a league behind), Prototypical  lighting options and fantastic sound at a good price.

Saying that the Bachmann model is pretty good and I still have 9 that I intend to keep.

[Colin_McLeod]

On 08/08/2020 at 09:45, Chris56057 said:

Every model has a fault - YES. Starting with the gauge

 

Not in this case.  It is meant to be 16.5mm.

 

It is an OO model after all.

[159220]

18 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

 

Thanks for these, confirms beyond doubt that the Hatton's original light pods are oversized and the wrong shape. I consider Bachmann correct here. The whole look of the Hatton's 66 front, in my opinion, is throw off by the overscale lights. 

 

I think retailers should stick to doing what they do best...retailing! 

 

As far as I am concerned, the following needs addressing on the 66 model.

- livery accuracy (try focusing on 4-6 models per release and getting to know the artwork in and out. Embrace feedback rather than defend by going on and on about Pantone - the 66s are mainly painted in RAL!!!).

- original type lighting pods (seen above, they are incorrect/overscale. Tooling needs modifying)

- window frames on all types (Overscale, either new glazing tooling or just don't paint so much of it in silver)

- axel boxes (New bogie tooling, ideally, without rotating axels)

- circuit board (ensure the factory is confident, ie. focus on producing 4-6 models and only 2ish variants per release)

- quality control/packaging (I do wonder, is a lot of the issue, down to the packaging)

- humble and honest customer service/interaction 

 

Sadly, Hatton's are going to take time to shift all of the 37 different 66s they have currently. It's going to be a good few years until a batch three. One has to wonder, whether Kader/Bachmann and Hatton's shall make up, with Kader manufacturing the Hatton's 66 under the EFE Rail brand? I would trust Kader/Bachmann to modify the tooling and electronics suitably, along with releasing superb artwork. 

[Colin_McLeod]

6 minutes ago, 159220 said:

axel boxes (New bogie tooling, ideally, without rotating axels

 

Lol.  If the axels don't rotate there really is a problem

[Mark Saunders]

34 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Lol.  If the axels don't rotate there really is a problem

 

Does anyone make an etched Wheel Skate ?

[classy52]

37 minutes ago, 159220 said:

 

Thanks for these, confirms beyond doubt that the Hatton's original light pods are oversized and the wrong shape. I consider Bachmann correct here. The whole look of the Hatton's 66 front, in my opinion, is throw off by the overscale lights. 

 

I think retailers should stick to doing what they do best...retailing! 

 

As far as I am concerned, the following needs addressing on the 66 model.

- livery accuracy (try focusing on 4-6 models per release and getting to know the artwork in and out. Embrace feedback rather than defend by going on and on about Pantone - the 66s are mainly painted in RAL!!!).

- original type lighting pods (seen above, they are incorrect/overscale. Tooling needs modifying)

- window frames on all types (Overscale, either new glazing tooling or just don't paint so much of it in silver)

- axel boxes (New bogie tooling, ideally, without rotating axels)

- circuit board (ensure the factory is confident, ie. focus on producing 4-6 models and only 2ish variants per release)

- quality control/packaging (I do wonder, is a lot of the issue, down to the packaging)

- humble and honest customer service/interaction 

 

Sadly, Hatton's are going to take time to shift all of the 37 different 66s they have currently. It's going to be a good few years until a batch three. One has to wonder, whether Kader/Bachmann and Hatton's shall make up, with Kader manufacturing the Hatton's 66 under the EFE Rail brand? I would trust Kader/Bachmann to modify the tooling and electronics suitably, along with releasing superb artwork. 

 

Personally I always thought the Hattons 66 hand rails were over-scale by protruding out too much on the cab ends and cab doors, this is just my observation and feel they are better executed on the Bachmann 66 & look more realistic or to scale.

[Pre Grouping fan]

42 minutes ago, 159220 said:

 One has to wonder, whether Kader/Bachmann and Hatton's shall make up, with Kader manufacturing the Hatton's 66 under the EFE Rail brand? I would trust Kader/Bachmann to modify the tooling and electronics suitably, along with releasing superb artwork. 

 

None of the EFE Rail products are made by the Bachmann or Kader factory. The brand is only a distributor of other companies products made in their own factories maybe with exception of the tube stock. I don't think Hattons need help with the distribution side.

[TomScrut]

46 minutes ago, 159220 said:

going on and on about Pantone - the 66s are mainly painted in RAL!!!

 

And I know first hand that's not always simple to match!

 

54 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Not in this case.  It is meant to be 16.5mm.

 

It is an OO model after all.

 

And regardless of that, there are simplifications/deliberate detail error or omissions that are there either for the benefit of manufacturing or cost effectiveness. I don't think these are the points being discussed here, it's the quality issues where something has turned out not as intended.

[Class 158 productions]

I think the model itself has a few flaws, however I feel people are more concerned about their ‘ultimate’ 66s arriving in a sea of tiny plastic parts that have fallen off, wonky nameplates and running issues. Once these issues are solved, or even recognised by hattons, then we can move onto those flaws. Personally I’d just like it if they got the darn model to actually run well out of the box and not fall to bits. Something I must say the Bachmann ones have been doing for 15 years. 

[JerseyJon]

1 hour ago, Class 158 productions said:

I think the model itself has a few flaws, however I feel people are more concerned about their ‘ultimate’ 66s arriving in a sea of tiny plastic parts that have fallen off, wonky nameplates and running issues. Once these issues are solved, or even recognised by hattons, then we can move onto those flaws. Personally I’d just like it if they got the darn model to actually run well out of the box and not fall to bits. Something I must say the Bachmann ones have been doing for 15 years. 

The nameplates aren’t wonky on mine, as they only arrived on Friday (some 8 months after the loco)....

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

I think the model itself has a few flaws, however I feel people are more concerned about their ‘ultimate’ 66s arriving in a sea of tiny plastic parts that have fallen off, wonky nameplates and running issues. Once these issues are solved, or even recognised by hattons, then we can move onto those flaws. Personally I’d just like it if they got the darn model to actually run well out of the box and not fall to bits. Something I must say the Bachmann ones have been doing for 15 years. 

 

Bearing in mind that the first batch of Bachmann 66s were suspect runners.

Only 4 axle pickup and bogie mounts that caused derailments.

But back then, we just got on and fixed them.

Extra pickups and a packing washer on top of the gear tower.

[Class 158 productions]

33 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Bearing in mind that the first batch of Bachmann 66s were suspect runners.

Only 4 axle pickup and bogie mounts that caused derailments.

But back then, we just got on and fixed them.

Extra pickups and a packing washer on top of the gear tower.

But back then, I’m sure they were much cheaper. And I believe the only alternative would have been a Lima one, I could be wrong on that. I think the issues would’ve been accepted by the majority of people, if the hype wasn’t so massive. Numerous times hattons boasted about the detail and design of it and around 8 months on from the first issues surfacing, we have very little response from them. If you get one that runs, it’s absolutely fabulous. But sadly, I don’t feel confident in buying anymore atm.

[letterspider]

19 hours ago, Andy7 said:

Great and useful pics for non owners. 

Before anyone says they compare well, they really are poles apart. The Hattons one is so much better in detail and haulage capacity. For me the reasons for getting 3 Hattons ones was haulage capacity (Bachmann 66 doesn’t have what I require for certain trains I run), detail (Bachmann is ok but a league behind), Prototypical  lighting options and fantastic sound at a good price.

Saying that the Bachmann model is pretty good and I still have 9 that I intend to keep.

 

 

Thanks for those side by sides - that is really helpful. The mirrors look great, on close up there is a lot  of remarkable detail for sure but with my eyes and not being someone trying for photo-realism - I am not going to enjoy that level of detail as much, also on top I like my models heavily weathered and  therefore looking as unremarkable as possible!

Saying that - there is enough differences that 'something will not look right' when alongside a Bachmann 66 - I think the exception for me are the really bright liveries which will distract from those details and those are the ONEs I am going for

 

I hope that Hattons can put this behind them as they are bringing in great models such as the RHTT, the snowploughs and the crane and it wouldn't be the best for modellers  if they pulled out from similar projects due to aforementioned issues.

['CHARD]

On 09/08/2020 at 14:28, letterspider said:

....  I don't think the new Freightliner livery looks good even when it is correct...

 

On 09/08/2020 at 15:09, TomScrut said:

 

Colas ends, EWS colour and lettering and then FL orange all spring to mind.

 

The FL orange is fine if you don't actually like it.  This opens a whole new world of accuracy debates!

[Lochnagar]

Re my earlier post about my 'ONE' 66587, the replacement arrived and it was a huge improvement cosmetically over the previous. Only a few minor issues that I could fix. Loose buffers, same wonky front valance due to flash, and a bit of bleed between the pink and grey on the roof, which would be hidden by weathering.. so I could have sorted all of this things out and be OK. 

 

No visible glue or residue around the bogies this time, so I was expecting it to run nicely. Unfortunately it wasn't, and the running qualities were up there with the first model.. really poor, extremely wonky wheels and very rough running. The loco got stuck/jammed when changing direction at low speeds, I gave it some time on a rolling road to see if anything needed to bed in and if it would improve, but it didn't. There was also a small twist in the chassis which meant that 3 wheels out of 12 were not touching the ground at any one time which created a 'rocking'. Loco was placed on glass and a slab of machined silver steel I have to check this kind of thing when required. 

 

So in the end I've given up on this one, and returned it last week for a refund. I can forgive some detail and build issues up to a point because you're not always bothered about those things when it's running around your layout hauling a train and you can enjoy it, but if it runs badly then I can't get any enjoyment out of that aspect either. Even dad commented on the running which is unusual.. so that was the decision made for me. Shame as I liked the pink shed! 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Lochnagar
omitted info

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

But back then, I’m sure they were much cheaper. And I believe the only alternative would have been a Lima one, I could be wrong on that. I think the issues would’ve been accepted by the majority of people, if the hype wasn’t so massive. Numerous times hattons boasted about the detail and design of it and around 8 months on from the first issues surfacing, we have very little response from them. If you get one that runs, it’s absolutely fabulous. But sadly, I don’t feel confident in buying anymore atm.

 

ISTR that the original RRP was £86 or so. (It's not worth trying to compare this with the general cost of living over the same timeframe, because the price rise of model railways has exceeded that over the past few years)

 

The point I am trying to make is that Bachman 66s weren't good from the get-go.

 

I'm not trying to protect Hattons - I would like to think that they can do that for themselves.

 

At the risk of being controversial - back then , the only real channels to comment were via a strongly worded letter to your favoured magazine. Who were then often accused of not publishing them - or bad reviews -  for fear of losing advertising revenue.

Nowadays - there is understandably far more freedom for anyone to write what they want to a wider audience via the likes of RMweb/Youtube etc.

 

On a similar vein - with the wider reaches of the internet - it is far easier to hype things up. And then woe betide if it doesn't meet the hype.

 

 

 

 

[Midnight-Freight]

One thing that strikes me is there seems to be a few customers that have returned faulty models and had replacements that have had the same and/or different problems. Surely if a customer has already had one duff model that they've returned the one thing you make sure you do is to check the replacement is a good one.

[TomScrut]

14 minutes ago, Midnight-Freight said:

One thing that strikes me is there seems to be a few customers that have returned faulty models and had replacements that have had the same and/or different problems. Surely if a customer has already had one duff model that they've returned the one thing you make sure you do is to check the replacement is a good one.

 

In my case I was reordering (as it was 2 locos it was free post) to save time and it took me 3 attempts and even after then they weren't perfect just good enough for me to not want to throw the dice again

[rob D2]

8 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Bearing in mind that the first batch of Bachmann 66s were suspect runners.

Only 4 axle pickup and bogie mounts that caused derailments.

But back then, we just got on and fixed them.

Extra pickups and a packing washer on top of the gear tower.

Yes, but they fixed the pick ups fast.....

And loosening a bogie screw  isn’t up to removing axle covers, reaming out the holes. Etc.

[newbryford]

49 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Yes, but they fixed the pick ups fast.....

And loosening a bogie screw  isn’t up to removing axle covers, reaming out the holes. Etc.

 

They fixed the pickups on the second run - about 12 months later.

It wasn't as simple as loosening the bogie screw.

The bogie had to be removed and a packing washer inserted.

This usually involved included disconnecting the  pickup wires to remove the bogie along with the drive shafts.

And putting the drive shafts back in can be is a PITA - especially for the unwary that didn't know they were handed. They would then drop out at the first sign of power.

The mod was further compounded by the bogie pickup wires colours being crossed over. Solder/connect red-red and grey-grey of each bogie = instant short. It had to be red-grey and grey-red................

 

Removing axle box covers and opening out the holes is a walk in the park compared to that lot above.

 

Like I say - I'm not defending Hattons 66 against the Bachy model - just putting a bit of perspective to it.

 

 

 

 

[MGR Hooper!]

Quote

 

Not in this case.  It is meant to be 16.5mm.

 

It is an OO model after all.

 

 

I'm fairly certain you know what context that statement was made in...

[MRDBLUE17]

Eric I don’t think anyone would disagree, everyone would expect to get a nice smooth running model as a minimum. With the high levels of detail demanded now compared to even 10 years ago it’s not unknown for the odd part to be loose, not be glued in properly etc.
 

I was certainly looking forward to these new models and got one from the first batch. I had already read issues reported on here and out the box it looked great. A couple of axle boxes missing being the only fault. However on track it wobbled, very badly as others have encountered. I worked out you could rock it diagonally across the body length by 2mm. After reading a helpful post on this topic I chose to pull off all the axle covers and test again. The model now sat solid on the track, ran smoothly as I had expected it to do. Hattons as normal were friendly and helpful and sent out a couple of replacement axle covers. I decided to simply cut back and glue on solid to the frames as I don’t want any to fall off at say a future exhibition and after doing that I’m really pleased with it. I’ve not done work on my second model that arrived recently. It ran reasonably smoothly out the box but has a lot of white glue residue all over the bogies, nameplates wonky but easily straightened, an axle cover broken (looked like it had split during assembly). My main niggle is the light bleed through the cab roof. Again all things I can when I have time work to resolve etc. Again Hattons sent a replacement axle so I will be happy once I’ve got it up to standard. 
 

Whilst happy to do the work to resolve, many won’t be and I can understand that especially with the high spec expected. Whilst I am/will be happy with my 2 models I don’t think I will get any more either as a result of the poor build quality. I have actually gone back to Bachmann for a couple of DB red ones and the GBRF pride from Rainbow Railways. 
 

I know you keeping asking Hattons for some sort of response on here but you have 7 models you’ve kept for example as I’ve kept mine. They sent the replacement parts and that’s the only issues they know as wee accepted our models as they are. I suspect a lot of people have as seen on here kept and sorted so there might not be as many going back or reported as expected. Probably more comments on Forums and Facebook. With the sheer volume Hattons have now produced I suspect it will be at least a couple of years before we see any further runs.

 

cheers

Mark