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Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

How does it detect the type of decoder. CV8 should be manufacturer id (which is normally fine) & CV7 should be version id, but manufacturers don't seem to stick to this, sometimes sharing the values between different versions of decoder.

Does the ECoS simply read these values? I am guessing the LokProgrammer is more accurate so is there another way to identify the decoder?

 

MKL and non-MKL version will probably share the same software - it is the hardware of the decoder that will vary between the two types.

There are other CVs that can provide further information - such as date of manufacture etc - but these are decoder specific and probably quite difficult to locate within typical CV lists as they are not user configurable.

Not every manufacturer publishes a complete list of all CVs per decoder.

 

As regards MKL or otherwise - another way of describing the decoders is 21MTC-NEM and 21MTC-NMRA.

(Which is a bit odd - as MKL - short for Marklin -  is to the NMRA spec.........)

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35 minutes ago, newbryford said:

As regards MKL or otherwise - another way of describing the decoders is 21MTC-NEM and 21MTC-NMRA.

(Which is a bit odd - as MKL - short for Marklin -  is to the NMRA spec.........)

 

I have just been doing a bit of digging myself on this, wish I hadn't as it looks vague at best (as far as NRMA is concerned).

 

First of all this is what ESU say about it in the manual, just for reference:

 

"Many new Märklin® locomotives, but also some brith locomotives with 21MTC interface do unfortunately not follow the 21-pin interface standards. These locomotives require the function outputs AUX2 and AUX4 to be powered outputs. In these cases, you need to use the LokSound 5 Decoder “MKL” Edition. On these decoders only, AUX3 and AUX4 are carried out as powered outputs. The installation as such is done as shown in section 6.5."

 

Although interestingly I then looked in NRMA RP9.1.1 (last revised in 2008 by the looks of it but latest on the NRMA site https://www.nmra.org/index-nmra-standards-and-recommended-practices) and under the 21MTC section it says the following about function pins:

 

"These pins are pulled to GND by the controller, if the function is on. The maximum voltage for the load is the track voltage. The maximum current is defined by the controller and/or the connector type. Controller manufacturers shall specify the maximum current to be drawn. Locomotive manufacturers shall specify the maximum current drawn on these pins. The noted 150 usage in brackets is the default wiring in case the corresponding function exists in the controller."

 

Which to me sounds like either the expectation is that ALL functions are to be powered, not just 1 to 6, or that basically it's a case of matching loco with decoder as current draws need to looked at.

 

Then on DCC wiki (https://dccwiki.com/21MTC_Connector) it links do a draft revision of RP9.1.1 (https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-9.1.1_connectors_2015.05.22.pdf) which seems to mirror the NEM standard (table in the DCC wiki page) in terms of AUX3 and AUX4 being logic level.

 

But, it would seem this isn't formally part of the standard yet and therefore from the NRMA side it seems vague, as by 2008 standards it's either underdefined or everything is powered (which I don't think any 10 function chip can do via the socket?). The thing is though that as far as I am aware a 10 function chip was nowhere near in the market in 2008 when that standard was introduced? I aren't sure what the technical limitations would be but I would think that it's better for the decoder for the electrical load work to be done by op-amps on the main board?

 

It does also say that ESU invented the 21MTC interface in the wiki so you'd hope if that's the case they are doing it right!

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19 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

 

Yeah, I get all of that and I'm not disagreeing with you at all, in fact I totally agree.  All covered really by:

  1. Is there sufficient demand for the proposed model? 


Obviously it's going to vary case-to-case, eg. whilst everything has limits, logic tells me that there is likely to be more longer-term/ongoing demand for prototypes such as 66779 'Evening Star' than say 66747 in Newell & Wright livery (more of a one-hit wonder perhaps?), and so on and so-forth...

 

 

 

I kind of stopped buying Bachamann 'sheds' when the limited editions began hitting £180 or so, for what to me already seemed like a model well past its sell-by date, and this was well before Hattons announced their 66.  And for that latter reason I held back on 'Evening Star' - as much as I'd like a model of 66779 - but of course I fully appreciate that not everyone will have done similar...

 

Best
Al 

 

Would agree on 66779, and likewise with the cost of models, and new products coming on the market, then in product lifecycyle terms I'd suggest that most items are one hit wonders.  The only real "cash cows" are the likes of Mallard and Flying Scotsman, others when in new liveries that everyone wants are possibly the HST, Class 60 and Class 66, plus the oncoming Class 37 and possibly Class 47, but will reserve judgement on that until it arrives...  Everything is competing for modellers hard earned cash.  Although possibly Mallard et al,  sales come from slightly different markets - more towards new comers, children, presents and those returning to the hobby.  I cannot imagine many modellers buy a new Mallard every couple of years, just to keep Margate sales high.  Even the gold plated version seems to be sitting!

 

Regards,

 

C.

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20 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

 

Yeah, I get all of that and I'm not disagreeing with you at all, in fact I totally agree.  All covered really by:

  1. Is there sufficient demand for the proposed model? 


Obviously it's going to vary case-to-case, eg. whilst everything has limits, logic tells me that there is likely to be more longer-term/ongoing demand for prototypes such as 66779 'Evening Star' than say 66747 in Newell & Wright livery (more of a one-hit wonder perhaps?), and so on and so-forth...

 

 

 

I kind of stopped buying Bachamann 'sheds' when the limited editions began hitting £180 or so, for what to me already seemed like a model well past its sell-by date, and this was well before Hattons announced their 66.  And for that latter reason I held back on 'Evening Star' - as much as I'd like a model of 66779 - but of course I fully appreciate that not everyone will have done similar...

 

Best
Al 

 

Would agree on 66779, and likewise with the cost of models, and new products coming on the market, then in product lifecycyle terms I'd suggest that most items are one hit wonders.  The only real "cash cows" are the likes of Mallard and Flying Scotsman, others when in new liveries that everyone wants are possibly the HST, Class 60 and Class 66, plus the oncoming Class 37 and possibly Class 47, but will reserve judgement on that until it arrives...  Everything is competing for modellers hard earned cash.  Although possibly Mallard et al,  sales come from slightly different markets - more towards new comers, children, presents and those returning to the hobby.  I cannot imagine many modellers buy a new Mallard every couple of years, just to keep Margate sales high.  Even the gold plated version seems to be sitting!

 

The Class 66's I am most surprised they didn't do were those named relating to Drax Power Station - for use with the Biomass Hoppers.

 

Regards,

 

C.

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1 hour ago, dogbox321 said:

HST

 

I'd say IC HSTs always sell well. Swallow Executive or the original blue (not sure what that is called)

 

The power cars of all of these liveries are hard to come by as far as I am aware. And plenty will want more than one too, in the same way I have 2 LNER 800s on order, even if one doesn't spend all its time on the layout one thing that always contributes to realistic looking running IMO is multiples of the same thing, especially in stations

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2 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

 

 

The Class 66's I am most surprised they didn't do were those named relating to Drax Power Station - for use with the Biomass Hoppers.

 

Regards,

 

C.


they should do the ones with women’s names, That way we don’t have to sneak them in the house “look dear this one is called Sarah, I bought it as a reminder of my undying love for you” 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, big jim said:

they should do the ones with women’s names, That way we don’t have to sneak them in the house “look dear this one is called Sarah, I bought it as a reminder of my undying love for you” 


"But my name's Jane, love"
 

"Who's Sarah?........"

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2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I'd say IC HSTs always sell well. Swallow Executive or the original blue (not sure what that is called)

 

The power cars of all of these liveries are hard to come by as far as I am aware. And plenty will want more than one too, in the same way I have 2 LNER 800s on order, even if one doesn't spend all its time on the layout one thing that always contributes to realistic looking running IMO is multiples of the same thing, especially in stations

You are basing that on what doesn’t sit around long on the shelves , but without knowing how many they make it’s hard to make an accurate assessments .

 

modelling certain periods becomes in vogue with that demographic and who has the highest disposable income . Can’t get a LL Heljan 50? That’s cos old farts like me with a few quid are reminiscing about the80s...

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2 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

You are basing that on what doesn’t sit around long on the shelves , but without knowing how many they make it’s hard to make an accurate assessments .

 

Yes but there will be a correlation between second hand availability and second hand prices to suggest whether the market is saturated or not.

 

If they are selling as quickly as Hornby choose to make them then that would be "selling well" in my opinion.

 

I aren't suggesting for a minute they are as cash cow as a Mallard or Scotsman but there have been a few releases since the latest tooling came out yet seem to maintain demand from what I can see.

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7 hours ago, big jim said:


my wife is Sarah so I can get away with it once! 

 

That's another one to add to the identity theft database............................

 

:jester:

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10 hours ago, big jim said:


they should do the ones with women’s names, That way we don’t have to sneak them in the house “look dear this one is called Sarah, I bought it as a reminder of my undying love for you” 

 

 

 

 


narrow planet will make you a nameplate with anything you like on it...

Monday Sarah

Tuesday Jane

Dirty Gertie

etc..

 

https://shop.narrowplanet.co.uk/collections/custom-etched-products

 

 

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23 hours ago, big jim said:


they should do the ones with women’s names, That way we don’t have to sneak them in the house “look dear this one is called Sarah, I bought it as a reminder of my undying love for you” 

 

 

 

 

A popular gambit in 16mm live steam, also always use silicon to affix the nameplates so you can change them.if you get a new one (wife or loco)

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Got my replacement yesterday, although it's looking more and more like a customer return.

 

Just had a message to say it had been picked and arrived the next day. No email to say what they had done but I know it's not my original loco back.

 

There is a slight wobble - about the same as my first one. But no motor jerk, so great there!

 

Half an hour each way on the rolling road, all axle boxes still in place - the joy is building.

 

Give it a whirl on the layout.

Derailed in a place the first one didn't. Then again on a straight. Lost one axle box, so I thiught I'd try it with a wagon.

Still derailed in a few spots, although none of it in the single place the first one did.

 

Come to refit the axle box and it seems the axle shaft is quite short. I can't imagine this wearing has occurred through my hour or so of use at lowish speed?

 

IMG_20200529_170520.jpg.f7bc34919b37b100a9653dcc7ebb1b07.jpg

 

IMG_20200529_170538.jpg.09d4aa8e526833cf62ede6715c5d4bd6.jpg

 

I don't know if I've received a customer return or what. I guess they had no more non-sound 001's to swap the speaker and decoder over to (or it was to much effort).

 

While I am greedy enough to want the best, this loco just isn't worth it.

So all in all, it'll be going back and I think for a full refund.

 

Just means I have 10 HTA hoppers with no loco to pull them now.

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1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Come to refit the axle box and it seems the axle shaft is quite short.

 

From your second photo it looks to me as though you need to remove the hardened glue from the axle end before attempting to refit anything.  Scrape gently with the very sharp tip of a blade and that hardened glue will flake away.  I think you'll find that will reveal the axle to be the correct length?

 

Is it derailing on the same bogie or/and same axle each time or/and when running in both directions, or just one way?

 

Best
Al

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4 minutes ago, YesTor said:

Is it derailing on the same bogie or/and same axle each time or/and when running in both directions, or just one way?

 

I only had limited time to test to be fair. 

 

One way. Different axles at different points, usually the front bogie but the rear one did struggle round a curve and was derailed for ages before I noticed as only one axle was off.

 

I just thought it looked a little short?

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43 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

I just thought it looked a little short?

 

It's caked-up with glue, that's for sure.  I think you'll find if you scrape away the dried glue that the axle length should be fine - they aren't overly long anyway -  just enough to clip the cover in place.  You might find that you need to tidy up the axle-box cover itself too before re-attaching as that will likely have excess glue on the attachment end...?

 

Here's one of mine minus axle-box covers, as hopefully you can see the axles only protrude by a small amount:

 

518707087_66762bogie.jpg.7b718eba275fc0159442103e97d2f303.jpg

 

 

Probably worth checking to see if the derailing bogie is catching on anything underneath the chassis, or hanging/sitting differently in comparison to the other bogie, or in any other way appears unusual...? 
 

Best

Al 

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