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Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

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For anyone that's not seen it, here's a Flickr link to a pic of 413 alongside 419, illustrating right and wrong. 

Railways

66419 is the same shade as 623, I've had them sat side by side in the yard!

 

Jo

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28 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

The money/rights side of it is something I am keen to learn more about. For example as you say a fee will almost certainly be paid for use of liveries. Likewise to the manufacturers of the item being modelled I'd expect.

 

So as is the case with most of this stuff copyright/TMs/IP protection is only any good if you're able to enforce it. So in the case of older designs from the BR or big 4 era, one would expect that there wouldn't be any costs here as the owners of the design won't be there to try and do anything about it?

 

Hornby doing celebs for £75 RRP there won't be much more than a few quid per loco. But then if they make a few thousand it's still maybe £10k-20k tops for an entire batch? What is then an interesting thought (I think) is how does that compare to the additional cost of repainting a loco in a special livery assuming it was going to be painted anyway? And if it's like some of them with multiple versions of the same (Evening Star, Biffa, Cemex, BR Blue, ONE to name a few) I have to think that the operator might actually make money out of doing different liveries. Especially with Cemex, Biffa and ONE given they'll probably have had some money from the brand to do the livery. That then leads onto are the fees greater on these locos as they have the operator and the brand on the loco to appease? Or will only one of the two own the rights to the livery?

 

And then in the case of the 66 one would expect GM to have had a payout at some point although I would expect this to be at the tooling stage?

 

The BR symbol is owned by The Office of Rail Regulation as successor to the BRB

LoadHaul,Mainline and Transrail - I think - are owned by DB as historically they became EWS.

 

Locos are painted in company colours or carry associated names as part of a wider commercial deal. I doubt they pay the FOC to carry the brand.

 

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5 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Locos are painted in company colours or carry associated names as part of a wider commercial deal.

 

Good point hadn't thought of that!

 

5 minutes ago, newbryford said:

The BR symbol is owned by The Office of Rail Regulation as successor to the BRB

 

And would they likely to be wanting to chase every RTR model with a BR logo on it for royalties? Not arguing just asking the question.

 

6 minutes ago, newbryford said:

LoadHaul,Mainline and Transrail - I think - are owned by DB as historically they became EWS.

 

That would also be interesting then in terms of repainting preserved locos. 33063 is in mainline livery at the moment.

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I am adjourning the  jaffagate enquiry for now personally. 

 

Here’s a photo of a really nice model by Hattons :D

33295389-A298-425E-A816-78B48DB6DFD1.jpeg

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2 minutes ago, Dicky L said:

jaffagate enquiry for now personally

 

Until it gets here there isn't really any sure fire way to be sure is there?

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6 minutes ago, Dicky L said:

I am adjourning the  jaffagate enquiry for now personally. 

 

Here’s a photo of a really nice model by Hattons :D

33295389-A298-425E-A816-78B48DB6DFD1.jpeg

Looks good on your layout ! Which is cool as you’ve invested the GDP of a small African country in them !

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58 minutes ago, 7013 said:

Very difficult to compare colours as in the photos of the models and the real thing.

The models look like they are shot in a studio, the studio lighting is bright and with my photographers hat on I would say they are over exposed somewhat. The prototype shots are under cloudy skies which give a very flat lighting. 

Not to mention the contentious issue of colour scaling.

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13 hours ago, Grizz said:

Also Go Heljan DK. Without Heljan’s efforts we’d be stuck with Lima and Hornby 47s. Yeah and I know that their 47 was on Steriods....

I don't forget that Heljan produced "Falcon" and just look what that led to!

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2 hours ago, 7013 said:

Very difficult to compare colours as in the photos of the models and the real thing.

The models look like they are shot in a studio, the studio lighting is bright and with my photographers hat on I would say they are over exposed somewhat. The prototype shots are under cloudy skies which give a very flat lighting. 

To get a truer comparison you would have to photograph both models and prototypes under the same lighting conditions.

Colour is a very subjective thing, colour perception is controlled by the rods and cones in the back of our eyes, how many of these we have determines how we perceive colour, for the most part we see colours the same as others. Colour blind people have different perception problems, and some people see tones better than others, and our brain sometimes  interprets colours differently than others....Are you still with me? As we generally see colours the same it is only when there is a glaringly obvious mistake that most people will see it. The fact that Hattons worked with Freightliner and the paint manufacturer to get the colours right rather poo poo's the idea that they have got it wrong, and it may be an individual perception problem.

Agree absolutely that it’s impossible to compare photos but the shot posted of 413 and 623 coupled together shows the difference in colour.
 

I’ll happily be proved wrong when they arrive. The fact that Hattons worked with Freightliner is great unless they were provided with the shade used on 66413 not the remainder of the locos painted subsequently in the darker shade. 

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With all the controversey over the shade of orange,has no one noticed 623 has black axle ends and the model is yellow like 413.................might be easier to find them bright orange when they detatch ..........

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On first impression, my 66704 seems superbly finished. I have only test run it on straight track so far, there is a wobble for sure, I may modify it so that the covers are not connected to axles anymore.

 

I have added 'Shawplan' nameplates, now it just needs weathering for ultimate realism. The DCC lighting functions are a big plus for me...

 

Hattons - I would like to see Metronet 66719, 66718/21 (London) if it's possible to do those older liveries...

SAM_5851.JPG

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4 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I don't forget that Heljan produced "Falcon" and just look what that led to!

 

Heljan have done all sorts of oddballs that most companies would stay away from haven't they! Falcon, Lion and Kestrel spring to mind.

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I have   issues with the 66. 66433 Twice. First one sent back with the wires twisted so I could Not fit the speaker and one wire of the board. So send that one back for a replacement. Second one came put the em2 speaker and the sound all working fine. Put the body back on red lights went in the coupling end. Put the dc plug back in still no red lights. Put the sound chip back in still no red lights. Spoke to a nice lady from Hattons told me to send it back to them as it is. They will sort it out. Got told yesterday they can not fit the sound in the replacement model. It came back to day with the sound chip In the box but no speaker. I am not very happy with this. They have told I have got to wait until Tuesday.  If u see this Dave I need my speaker back as soon as possible this Is poor service. How can u take the sound chip out and not the speaker to. Don’t understand the logic. 

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5 minutes ago, Walkes07 said:

I have   issues with the 66. 66433 Twice. First one sent back with the wires twisted so I could Not fit the speaker and one wire of the board. So send that one back for a replacement. Second one came put the em2 speaker and the sound all working fine. Put the body back on red lights went in the coupling end. Put the dc plug back in still no red lights. Put the sound chip back in still no red lights. Spoke to a nice lady from Hattons told me to send it back to them as it is. They will sort it out. Got told yesterday they can not fit the sound in the replacement model. It came back to day with the sound chip In the box but no speaker. I am not very happy with this. They have told I have got to wait until Tuesday.  If u see this Dave I need my speaker back as soon as possible this Is poor service. How can u take the sound chip out and not the speaker to. Don’t understand the logic. 

I would imagine they forgot to put the speaker in the box, its not poor service.  You should have your speaker back, but you dont need it as soon as possible.

 

Hatton's, like a lot of businesses will most probably be running on low staffing, and a lot of pressure.  Give them a break.  Its a bank holiday this weekend, even if the speaker was posted out tomorrow you wouldn't get it back until at least wednesday/thursday.

 

 

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I understand they have low staff at the moment. When u send something U expect it to come back as u sent it. U take the sound chip out and the speaker out. Could not be any easier than that. Even took the body of to take the sound chip out. This is just crazy. This is so frustrating. 

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It's poor service from the person involved at Hattons with sorting out the faulty sound loco return, You would expect the replacement to included the fitted decoder and EM2 speaker so the purchaser can run in out of the box. There's no excuse for the replacement decoder to be left in the box let alone a missing speaker reguardless of current situations imposed.

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11 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Locos are painted in company colours or carry associated names as part of a wider commercial deal. I doubt they pay the FOC to carry the brand.

 

 

Glad you said this, as I did watch the video out of curiosity to decided do I have another go at buying some Hatton's 66s or watch for Bachmann to bring us a decent one... 

 

Did the guy in the video really suggest companies pay the FOCs for 'advertorial' space/liveries? Bonkers! It is always FOC lead, always in celebration of a new important contract. Always paid for by the FOC. It is good PR for the FOC, saying "look! we are passionate about delivering a superb service, as a customer - why not bring your freight requirements our way". You could argue, GBRf are exceptionally good at doing this and which FOC is always growing/carrying the industries best reputation?....  The only complication comes when seeking approval to use the branding on a scale model. The FOC shall have terms, each FOC is different (often of not depends on whether the director is a modeller or not - you know who you are!)...these are not a problem at all...it is the corporate brand...who's brand department likely has never heard of a model train and shall assume there is a commercial edge to the deal. The trick then, is to just try a different tack and hunt down a modeller in said company...or someone after a deal. Otherwise you might indeed end up paying dearly. Like with anything in life, it is all about who you know! 

 

The video kinda had an effect in putting me off the Hatton's 66 more! Why did they not state once that they understand there were quality issues with the first batch...all has been addressed here ... inc. working marker lights. I just would be so disappointed if I lent Hatton's my money again and I got a parcel like I did last time. Come on Bachmann, I am trying to be patient and wait here! 

 

If Hatton's Dave can address us here, how the plan to solve the issues and whether this shall be on batch 2 (due next month) or not until a future batch. This shall help me decide what to do a lot. But I suspect he cannot, as we all know Bachmann read RMWeb... 

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25 minutes ago, Walkes07 said:

I understand they have low staff at the moment. When u send something U expect it to come back as u sent it. U take the sound chip out and the speaker out. Could not be any easier than that. Even took the body of to take the sound chip out. This is just crazy. This is so frustrating. 

You understand they have low staff but then criticize them for trying help you.  They do not have to fit sound in the replacement model, if its your own decoder.  How would you feel if they put the decoder in but damaged it in the process?

 

If this is frustrating you, you really need to take a long hard look at yourself

 

Its a model train, its not an essential, its not life saving

 

Oh, and its YOU not U

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28 minutes ago, Gronkster said:

It's poor service from the person involved at Hattons with sorting out the faulty sound loco return, You would expect the replacement to included the fitted decoder and EM2 speaker so the purchaser can run in out of the box. There's no excuse for the replacement decoder to be left in the box let alone a missing speaker reguardless of current situations imposed.

From what I can gather, its the customers own decoder, so Hattons do not have to install the decoder to the replacement model, nor the speaker.  Yes, the speaker should have been sent back but most probably missed out by accident.

 

Its not poor service

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4 minutes ago, Half-full said:

From what I can gather, its the customers own decoder, so Hattons do not have to install the decoder to the replacement model, nor the speaker.  Yes, the speaker should have been sent back but most probably missed out by accident.

 

Its not poor service

Oh, and it’s , not its....

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4 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

Oh, and it’s , not its....

Thank U for correcting me

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, 159220 said:

The FOC shall have terms

 

That's what I was thinking earlier though. If the variations in liveries are good for their brand, and they can get a fee for licensing it so us lot can buy models, then depending on the figures it is in the interest of the FOC to have lots of "celebs" so that there are lots of models and their fancy brandings could be subsidised or even paid for by the modellers.

 

If they are repainting a loco anyway then other than paying for the design (if not done in house) and any vinyls/extra time for complicated details are the only on cost. I'd expect this would be covered by the fees for a model? So it's kind of a win win for the FOC as they get better brand image for maybe little spend. Because you can almost guarantee when a nice looking special livery comes out it's likely to be done by somebody, at least when talking 66s where there are 3 manufacturers in OO alone.

 

I doubt given how well covered the current scene is there is any trouble actually getting an agreement out of somebody unless it's already done with somebody else as an exclusive. It does seem like almost every model company has a deal with almost every operating company.

Edited by TomScrut

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It doesn't matter if the decoder had been fitted by the customer. The loco was sent back fully fitted with decoder and speaker and I for one would expect it to come back fitted if it was mine.

I used to work in model railway trade/retail and the branch I worked in, I did all the loco service work on my own if the loco was out of warranty or just come in for a service, If they where under manufacture warranty then those went to the company involved for sorting. Not once did a loco get sent back to the customer with things missing or not fitted back inside.

 

EM2 aint a small cube speaker. What every Hattons do now, It's still poor service regardless of what you think.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Gronkster said:

It doesn't matter if the decoder had been fitted by the customer. The loco was sent back fully fitted with decoder and speaker and I for one would expect it to come back fitted if it was mine.

I used to work in model railway trade/retail and the branch I worked in, I did all the loco service work on my own if the loco was out of warranty or just come in for a service, If they where under manufacture warranty then those went to the company involved for sorting. Not once did a loco get sent back to the customer with things missing or not fitted back inside.

 

EM2 aint a small cube speaker. What every Hattons do now, It's still poor service regardless of what you think.

 

 

Low staffing, lots of pressure, doing stuff you don't need to do in the middle of a global pandemic does not equal poor service.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

That's what I was thinking earlier though. If the variations in liveries are good for their brand, and they can get a fee for licensing it so us lot can buy models, then depending on the figures it is in the interest of the FOC to have lots of "celebs" so that there are lots of models and their fancy brandings could be subsidised or even paid for by the modellers.

 

If they are repainting a loco anyway then other than paying for the design (if not done in house) and any vinyls/extra time for complicated details are the only on cost. I'd expect this would be covered by the fees for a model? So it's kind of a win win for the FOC as they get better brand image for maybe little spend. Because you can almost guarantee when a nice looking special livery comes out it's likely to be done by somebody, at least when talking 66s where there are 3 manufacturers in OO alone.

 

I doubt given how well covered the current scene is there is any trouble actually getting an agreement out of somebody unless it's already done with somebody else as an exclusive. It does seem like almost every model company has a deal with almost every operating company.


For customer liveries, it is not just the FOC that has to grant permission, and it known that some companies (including FOCs) have been very protective of their image rights. 
 

Roy

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