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Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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11 hours ago, letterspider said:

 

 

In defence of the Bachmann Class 37...

 

Class-37-19-MBA.gif.5dfd97ebbb57dfcc0cd14ed9caa04085.gif

That is 19 MBA wagons, mostly with loads. This is one wagon longer than the consists I used to see travelling through North London.

It can also be comfortably managed by a Heljan 58, Bachmann 66 and a Hornby Class 60.

 

 

 

& pulling the lot around a fairly tight curve too.

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6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

& pulling the lot around a fairly tight curve too.

 

It's a hidden section so it's 2nd radius.

To the right of the tunnel I am building an elevated section and that is when things will 'get interesting' 

Getting back on topic - haulage is not going to be a concern for me - I like the ONE livery and the extra detail from Hattons will be a great bonus. 

Would be nice if they did (heavily) weathered liveries and I am happy to hold out for them.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

& pulling the lot around a fairly tight curve too.

 

TBH, when putting a ramp on my layout, with 2nd and 3rd Rad curves, I got the least free running stock I could get my hands on easily - Kernow JIA's of which I have 9, plus a Dummy HST power car and I got a Lima Class 47 to pull, and to push the whole lot up the ramps.  I were more than slightly worried as the ramps are pretty intense and well above what is recommended, plus with the curves - but it could start and stop anywhere on them without any problem with adhesion whatsoever.  I were more than relieved.

 

With regards to Weathered Class 66's, then I could quite imagine Hattons would want to resolve their current issues with their supplier, without adding an extra complexity of weathering.  Plus, its a personal taste issue - as to very heavy (water jet use), heavy, light or inbetween.  People can add it easier than it can be removed!

 

Regards,

 

Chris

 

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19 minutes ago, dogbox321 said:

With regards to Weathered Class 66's, then I could quite imagine Hattons would want to resolve their current issues with their supplier, without adding an extra complexity of weathering.  Plus, its a personal taste issue - as to very heavy (water jet use), heavy, light or inbetween.  People can add it easier than it can be removed!

 

I agree!

 

19 minutes ago, dogbox321 said:

well above what is recommended

 

Recommended seems to be a bit of a loose term though from what I can tell. AFAIK 4% is the limit as to what is recommended but what is that? A Hornby Railroad 0-4-0 pulling 20 coaches? Or a Heljan DPU on its own?

 

I'd hazard a guess for example that for most modern image stuff with rakes fit for most layouts that 4% wouldn't be a problem at all. I'd expect the issue will be small locos (shunters etc.) or steamers.

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1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

I agree!

 

 

Recommended seems to be a bit of a loose term though from what I can tell. AFAIK 4% is the limit as to what is recommended but what is that? A Hornby Railroad 0-4-0 pulling 20 coaches? Or a Heljan DPU on its own?

 

I'd hazard a guess for example that for most modern image stuff with rakes fit for most layouts that 4% wouldn't be a problem at all. I'd expect the issue will be small locos (shunters etc.) or steamers.

 

Worst combination is gradient and curve.

 

1 in 30 (3.33%) on a 3 foot curve pushes a Bachmann 66 to wheelslip with 13 Dapol HIAs

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11 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Worst combination is gradient and curve.

 

Sorry yes forgot to mention the curves!

 

What you have said is very informative, and actually gives me a decent basis for what I am keen to know for personal reference. 13 HIAs is more than what I would want to run in the short term for example, but a Bachmann 66 is probably around the standard I need to design my layout around as I have two of them, and I think everything else I have where I'd want a long train on is heavier.

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15 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Sorry yes forgot to mention the curves!

 

What you have said is very informative, and actually gives me a decent basis for what I am keen to know for personal reference. 13 HIAs is more than what I would want to run in the short term for example, but a Bachmann 66 is probably around the standard I need to design my layout around as I have two of them, and I think everything else I have where I'd want a long train on is heavier.

 

It's not simply the weight of the train. It's the rolling resistance as well.

I reckon my set of 18 Revolution TEAs is less draggy than 10 (or maybe less) Dapol HIAs.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

It's not simply the weight of the train. It's the rolling resistance as well.

 

I know, my reference to heavier was the loco not the stock itself. I was going to work off you mentioning HIAs and the fact I have HIAs to compare with other things.

 

44 minutes ago, newbryford said:

I reckon my set of 18 Revolution TEAs is less draggy than 10 (or maybe less) Dapol HIAs.

 

Oddly enough though I find my HIAs about the least resistive things I have, probably better than my Revolution TEAs. But the TEAs are better than pretty much everything else I have in terms of resistance. Maybe it's that my HIAs haven't done enough running for the plastic to wear or that the TEAs need an oil, as I presume the bearing will need oil from time to time.

 

A small force meter would be useful for experimentation! Could even give my vehicles power classifications.....

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11 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

It's not simply the weight of the train. It's the rolling resistance as well.

I reckon my set of 18 Revolution TEAs is less draggy than 10 (or maybe less) Dapol HIAs.

 

 

 

Yes, the TEA's run very smoothly - something that Rapido and Revolution go to great lengths to ensure.  I know they work to NMRA specified weights and also think the axles on the TEAs go into bearings, as apposed to athe standard moulded inward dimple.  Thats why I went for the JIA's, which whilst lighter, I believe are from the same factory as the HIA's, and you have to pretty much apply constant finger force to get them to rotate.  The bogie moulding also seems to be a pretty rough plastic, so expect that adds to friction on the axle contact points on the bogie.  I wonder if a DCC Concepts reamer may help with the free running on such stock?

 

Just checked - my incline height is 17.5cm and just over 30 feet of straight rising track, with the curves having very a very gentle rise to reduce resistance.  Its not fully wired so apart from the tests no other train has gone up it in anger yet!  Of course the Lima Class 47 does also have traction tyres on the motor end.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Chris.

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Was reading the review of Irish Model Railways' (aka Accurscale) new Keg Liner wagon in Rail Express which also has rotating axle boxes - would be interesting to know how they have done that. There is reference to an extend metal axle. And it is designed to allow regauging.

 

I have asked IRM on the Keg thread to see if they will divulge their engineering.

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20 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Was reading the review of Irish Model Railways' (aka Accurscale) new Keg Liner wagon in Rail Express which also has rotating axle boxes - would be interesting to know how they have done that. There is reference to an extend metal axle. And it is designed to allow regauging.

 

I have asked IRM on the Keg thread to see if they will divulge their engineering.

 

Whilst it would be interesting I'd think doing it on a wagon would be a lot easier than a loco. I think the main issue stems from having an external bogie moulding that isn't guaranteed to line up with the gearbox. Not something that would be encountered on a wagon bogie

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7 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Whilst it would be interesting I'd think doing it on a wagon would be a lot easier than a loco. I think the main issue stems from having an external bogie moulding that isn't guaranteed to line up with the gearbox. Not something that would be encountered on a wagon bogie

Rotating axle boxes have been about for a while on North American model locos. I have attached a video of my Scaletrains GE and if you look closely the boxes are rotating. But the key to this feature working successfully is clearance. You can see the hole in which it is rotating is noticeably larger than the box itself.  
 

 

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9 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

The 66 is just a scaled down Canadian GM loco to fit ourloading guage,if you are into them the 66 story DVD is a great vid to own as it shows there construction and there was other builds in the factory looking like the above model going to India railways,all seem to have the bearing arangement where the axle end is rotational.

Not just a Canadian loco, its prime mover is used in GM GP40, SD40, SD45 etc, thousands of those have been built in various forms and used around the world.  Quite a remarkable locomotive line really!

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On 19/07/2020 at 20:16, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

The 66 is just a scaled down Canadian GM loco to fit ourloading gauge,if you are into them the 66 story DVD is a great vid to own as it shows there construction and there was other builds in the factory looking like the above model going to India railways,all seem to have the bearing arangement where the axle end is rotational.


Quite a large difference when I saw them side by side being built..

 


 

66522 undergoing testing in Summer 2000, London,Ontario.

Edited by adb968008
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10 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Was reading the review of Irish Model Railways' (aka Accurscale) new Keg Liner wagon in Rail Express which also has rotating axle boxes - would be interesting to know how they have done that. There is reference to an extend metal axle. And it is designed to allow regauging.

 

I have asked IRM on the Keg thread to see if they will divulge their engineering.

 

Rotating ends on a4 wheel wagon (or bogie) will be less of an issue than a 6 wheeler. The centre axle needs sideways float to cope with R2 curves.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Half-full said:

Not just a Canadian loco, its prime mover is used in GM GP40, SD40, SD45 etc, thousands of those have been built in various forms and used around the world.  Quite a remarkable locomotive line really!

These locos have GM 645 variant engines while the Class 66 has a 710 variant which is a later model prime mover. The Class 59 has a 645 variant. 

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7 hours ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

Rotating axle boxes have been about for a while on North American model locos. I have attached a video of my Scaletrains GE and if you look closely the boxes are rotating. But the key to this feature working successfully is clearance. You can see the hole in which it is rotating is noticeably larger than the box itself.  

 

It would be interesting to see the underside view with respect to the design of the axle-box cap and it's method of attachment to the axle itself. 

 

Al

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I have a Scaletrains SD40-3 ( rebuilt SD40-2 for CSX with upgraded electronics and a square cab) I will compare the rotating axle boxes on this with my Hattons 66 tonight. Again a six axle locomotive so the same issues with the centre axles.

 

John

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I have the Scaletrains SD40-3 and Hattons 66 in front of me now. The SD has long extended axles and the axle boxes have a deep hole which fits over the axle extension. A good clearance is provided on the side frames to allow the rotating axle box freedom of movement. Also, a packet of six spare axle boxes came with the loco. Difficult to get a photo which shows the axle extensions as they disappear into the side frames. Altogether a much superior arrangement. 
 

John

86F04D61-74BA-47E2-AB77-7EB365685202.jpeg

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On ‎19‎/‎07‎/‎2020 at 19:34, NIRCLASS80 said:

Rotating axle boxes have been about for a while on North American model locos. I have attached a video of my Scaletrains GE and if you look closely the boxes are rotating. But the key to this feature working successfully is clearance. You can see the hole in which it is rotating is noticeably larger than the box itself.  
 

 

I got 6 spare axle boxes with my Scaletrains GE  ET44AC loco

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41 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

One hopes the 66 model is given this arangement to sort out the issue while making it quick to build at the factory,if these have been around before the 66 it begs the question why not use what works,im looking forward to seeing how Dapols 59 is made.

 

This is something  I find rather odd: I'm led to believe there are a small number  (dozen?) of toy train design/manufacturing companies in China, who manufacture a good chuck of the world's demand for said items.  So you would think they would have an extensive design library of 'known good' parts (drivetrains, bogie designs etc.) that can be re-used  on new projects. 

 

Yet 'we' - as in the UK market in particular -  seem to have to endure all sorts of odd design compromises and strange mechanisms, I wonder why? Are some UK 'manufacturers' dealing with the Z-team not the A-team , due to low production volumes maybe?

 

As I've said before it must be no fun trying to micro-manage the output of somebody else's production line on the other side of the planet when your business isn't a significant proportion of their turnover, but even so there do seem to be rather a lot of avoidable problems.

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13 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

 

This is something  I find rather odd: I'm led to believe there are a small number  (dozen?) of toy train design/manufacturing companies in China, who manufacture a good chuck of the world's demand for said items.  So you would think they would have an extensive design library of 'known good' parts (drivetrains, bogie designs etc.) that can be re-used  on new projects. 

 

Yet 'we' - as in the UK market in particular -  seem to have to endure all sorts of odd design compromises and strange mechanisms, I wonder why? Are some UK 'manufacturers' dealing with the Z-team not the A-team , due to low production volumes maybe?

 

As I've said before it must be no fun trying to micro-manage the output of somebody else's production line on the other side of the planet when your business isn't a significant proportion of their turnover, but even so there do seem to be rather a lot of avoidable problems.

 

whilst media often suggests otherwise, copyright and respect of intellectual property does exist in China, especially between local competing companies.

Similarly HO and OO are different scales.

 

First time I saw rotating axle boxes was Proto 2000, back in the 1990’s, however going back further, first time I saw separately moulded working Springs  on a wheel within an axle was much more obtuse... it was Peco’s OO gauge Milk tank wagon, it must be 4 decades old now...

 

https://peco-uk.com/products/milk-tank-wagon-express-dairy

 

i’m surprised its still available, I was making these at school in the 1980’s.

 

The concept of separately moulded axle pieces certainly isnt new.


 

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