Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[chris37422]

On 24/07/2020 at 18:52, chris37422 said:

Received my Biffa and ‘One’ liveried sheds today.

 

Dont think I’ve felt so scared when opening model railway boxes before..

Nameplates were wonky on both, and one of the front handrails is floating as per my other two. A loose pipe in the box of the ‘One’ loco, not sure where off but I’ll figure out when I can be bothered.

 

Yet to run either, but the bogies on the Biffa one have a lot of glue marks and one of the axle boxes is caked in the stuff.

 

Livery application on both is generally good to my eyes. Being a bit critical I’d say the ‘Zero Injuries’ branding on 66587 isnt the best.

 

To summarise, as per my last two, I’d say the model is definitely an upgrade on the Bachmann offering but let down by some pee poor QC. Will be ordering the Cemex next and would have had the orange FL but for it being the wrong shade, cant understand that one.

 

Off to test.... Happy Modelling! 
 

EDIT: Upon closer inspection one of the buffers was missing from 66587. Will use the spare provided.

 

Finally got round to testing.... both going back :-(

 

Contacted Hattons who were helpful and going back with Collect+. Initially for replacements,  but not 100% sure what to do now. Really want the ‘One’ loco so will probably replace that.

 

 

[YesTor]

2 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

look back in the tread,i put pictures of the gear towers stripped out as i have had longer axles made and redesigned the ends to keep the rotating axle detail .

 

Ahh, that's interesting.  So, am I correct in thinking that those metal sleeves fit over the new axle end and then the shortened plastic cover simply pushes into the end?

 

cheers

Al

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

9 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Thanks I was looking at retailers.

 

You're welcome mate. Just thought that I would confirm the change in case you or anyone else wanted to opt for the Bachmann 419 over the Hattons 623. 

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

You're welcome mate. Just thought that I would confirm the change in case you or anyone else wanted to opt for the Bachmann 419 over the Hattons 623. 

 

I'll probably get the Bachmann one.

 

1. I don't want one enough to spend £150 on it

2. It will probably be the right colour.

3. I probably won't have to send it back 2 times and still end up with stuff not working (but I couldn't be bothered rolling the dice again with the main issues solved)

4. I can't be bothered going through the process of chipping a Hattons one again, at least in the short term.

 

I am willing to do this for a "definitive" model of a loco I particularly want, but in this case (unusually for model rail) I am wanting a loco to go with some wagons, not the other way round.

Edited August 2, 2020 by TomScrut

[chris37422]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

I'll probably get the Bachmann one.

 

1. I don't want one enough to spend £150 on it

2. It will probably be the right colour.

3. I probably won't have to send it back 2 times and still end up with stuff not working (but I couldn't be bothered rolling the dice again with the main issues solved)

4. I can't be bothered going through the process of chipping a Hattons one again, at least in the short term.

Would tend to agree with you. I’m settling on a refund for my 2 and will order the Bachmann ‘Biffa’ (as well as the FL)

 

Maybe it’s a case of retailers stick to retailing and manufacturers stick to manufacturing? But then again, Kernow (for example) seem to manage decent QC on their projects.

 

 

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, chris37422 said:

Maybe it’s a case of retailers stick to retailing and manufacturers stick to manufacturing? But then again, Kernow (for example) seem to manage decent QC on their projects.

 

Oh, I don’t know. Hatton’s produced the Ps and Barclays. Lovely little models which run well. Naming no names but manufacturers seem just as able to foul things up every now and again.

[chris37422]

4 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

Oh, I don’t know. Hatton’s produced the Ps and Barclays. Lovely little models which run well. Naming no names but manufacturers seem just as able to foul things up every now and again.

Each to their own of course :-)

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I'll probably get the Bachmann one.

 

1. I don't want one enough to spend £150 on it

2. It will probably be the right colour.

3. I probably won't have to send it back 2 times and still end up with stuff not working (but I couldn't be bothered rolling the dice again with the main issues solved)

4. I can't be bothered going through the process of chipping a Hattons one again, at least in the short term.

 

I am willing to do this for a "definitive" model of a loco I particularly want, but in this case (unusually for model rail) I am wanting a loco to go with some wagons, not the other way round.

 

I'm with you, I will probably buy the Bachmann 419 too, and that way I can keep the Bardon blue 623 I have. 

[YesTor]

3 hours ago, chris37422 said:

Maybe it’s a case of retailers stick to retailing and manufacturers stick to manufacturing?

 

Not sure I agree - Hattons have released some great models - the ZZA snowplough for one is outstanding, and the FEA-E flats are superb as well.  And as you say, Kernow have issued more than their fair share of exclusive items, again many of them being very fine indeed.  Locomotives are definitely in a different league though, with there being so many more things to get right - or indeed wrong! 

 

Still, competition is healthy and ultimately good for us modellers, after all when do you figure Bachmann might have gotten around to dragging their 66 up to new standards?       In fairness, all manufacturers release more than their share of blunders - Hornby, Heljan, Dapol, Bachmann, all of them.  It could be argued that the only thing that any of the main manufacturers need to do, by definition, is "manufacture" - in which case they should be getting it spot-on all of the time, because that's all they do, right?  It's a fact of life however, that no manufacturer, retailer/manufacturer cottage industry manufacturer etc etc, is going to get everything right all of the time, sadly.

 

Al 

Edited August 2, 2020 by YesTor

[YesTor]

8 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

You get the idea,i will post once i have it finnished as i have only just got parts and will check assembly and post who made them once im happy.

The plastic spacer is to stop dead shorting the wheel assembly through the axle.

 

Looks very promising indeed and very much look forward to seeing the results of your labours. 

 

Best

Al

Edited August 2, 2020 by YesTor

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

Not sure I agree - Hattons have released some great models - the ZZA snowplough for one is outstanding, and the FEA-E flats are superb as well.  And as you say, Kernow have issued more than their fair share of exclusive items, again many of them being very fine indeed.  Locomotives are definitely in a different league though, with there being so many more things to get right - or indeed wrong! 

 

Still, competition is healthy and ultimately good for us modellers, after all when do you figure Bachmann might have gotten around to dragging their 66 up to new standards?       In fairness, all manufacturers release more than their share of blunders - Hornby, Heljan, Dapol, Bachmann, all of them.  It could be argued that the only thing that any of the main manufacturers need to do, by definition, is "manufacture" - in which case they should be getting it spot-on all of the time, because that's all they do, right?  It's a fact of life however, that no manufacturer, retailer/manufacturer cottage industry manufacturer etc etc, is going to get everything right all of the time, sadly.

 

Al 

Quite agree

The amount of money and time I have had to spend on my Hornby Sliding Door Mk3a coaches totally eclipses the work I had to do on my superb Hattons class 66 locos

john

[Roy L S]

I will firstly admit to not being in the market for a 00 model of a 66 from any manufacturer, but as someone who has a strong interest in British outline model railways regardless of scale I have followed this thread from the beginning with huge interest. My perspective as someone with no "skin in the game" so to speak is that when this product was announced Hattons certainly had established a track record in manufacturing of their own (i.e. not using outside designers like DJM) and had released some very well received products. 

 

They then announced what was intended to be a "flagship" product in terms of detail, features and operation - the 66. This model was to be a step up from existing models and as a result expectations have been high. Sadly it appears that the reality has not lived up to expectations for a significant number of people and the quality hasn't always been what one would expect for such a pivotal model in anyone's range. This appears to be down to poor assembly and some inadequacies in design around the rotating axle-boxes. There did seem to be an opportunity to pause and look again at design in this area for the second batch, but instead it appears that it was decided to glue the axle-boxes on which hasn't proved universally successful. In a very recent post a very elegant design solution has been shown which on the face of it would have added little to the design/production costs, but I guess we will never know the reasons (cost?) why something similar was not entertained.

 

So, my conclusion is that in announcing the "ultimate" model with great fanfare you need to make very sure that the model lives up fully to the hype in all respects and test, test, test to make sure all is good. It is not for me to say what didn't go quite right and for sure the model looks superb in terms of detail and features, but one thing I do know is that: -

 

"You never get a second chance to make a first impression"...

 

Even if the bugs do get ironed out in subsequent batches, I suspect the model will never quite have the status of the "ultimate" 66 and the fact that some are talking about reverting to the less technically advanced Bachmann 66 illustrates the issue.

 

I do of course accept that as with any model there will be a silent majority who are happily running this model, but 155 pages on the subject shows to me that (1) the 66 is a hugely popular model and (2) that a significant number of people appear to have issues, not always just with one model but very often with several. 

 

I really hope, for the sake of the N Gauge Garratt I have on order (if it happens) that Hattons have learned from the design and QC issues reported on the 66 for the future, as the Garratt model will be as complex and technically challenging in different ways (and would be for any manufacturer). 

 

What must be ensured is a model that comes out of the box with an expectation that all will be good, i.e. that it is Ready to Run rather than Ready to Repair or Ready to Return....

 

Roy

[chris37422]

10 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

Not sure I agree - Hattons have released some great models - the ZZA snowplough for one is outstanding, and the FEA-E flats are superb as well.  And as you say, Kernow have issued more than their fair share of exclusive items, again many of them being very fine indeed.  Locomotives are definitely in a different league though, with there being so many more things to get right - or indeed wrong! 

 

Still, competition is healthy and ultimately good for us modellers, after all when do you figure Bachmann might have gotten around to dragging their 66 up to new standards?       In fairness, all manufacturers release more than their share of blunders - Hornby, Heljan, Dapol, Bachmann, all of them.  It could be argued that the only thing that any of the main manufacturers need to do, by definition, is "manufacture" - in which case they should be getting it spot-on all of the time, because that's all they do, right?  It's a fact of life however, that no manufacturer, retailer/manufacturer cottage industry manufacturer etc etc, is going to get everything right all of the time, sadly.

 

Al 

Agree with many of the points you make Al :-)

 

I suppose the issue with the 66 as an example, the pressure of delivering or near enough delivering ‘The Ultimate 66’ came at a price - damaging the relationship with one of their largest suppliers. This has been discussed time and time again so I wont go there but that was the thinking behind my ‘Manufacturer’s stick to Manufacturing and Retailers stick to Retailing’ comment. 
 

I don't want that to come across in the wrong way though, as you say there have been some cracking projects come through from all of these guys bold enough to put their hands in their pockets. We’ve seen many models for which we probably never thought we would and I for one am grateful.

 

Back to the 66 - I own 2 from the first batch and have no real issues with them. The model looks fantastic, and as I’ve said pages and pages earlier in this thread, it’s light years ahead of the Barwell offering. The detail is quite stunning in places and the different variations catered for is unprecedented in my view. That’s where my frustrations lie on a personal level, if you get a near perfect one then you probably do have the ultimate model.

 

I’m still really attached to the ‘One’ livery one so may not be so hasty to not replace afterall....

 

Best Wishes,

Chris

[Pete the Elaner]

15 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I'll probably get the Bachmann one.

 

1. I don't want one enough to spend £150 on it

2. It will probably be the right colour.

3. I probably won't have to send it back 2 times and still end up with stuff not working (but I couldn't be bothered rolling the dice again with the main issues solved)

4. I can't be bothered going through the process of chipping a Hattons one again, at least in the short term.

 

I am willing to do this for a "definitive" model of a loco I particularly want, but in this case (unusually for model rail) I am wanting a loco to go with some wagons, not the other way round.

 

Looking at Bachmann prices on Rails for new or forthcoming releases (ie not those discounted a little to clear)

Class 90: £150

Class 47: £150

Class 40: £160

Class 55: £150

Class 45: £135/£145

Class 37: £125

Class 66: £125

 

Is it a false assumption that the 37 & 66 are a little cheaper because competition is available or will be very soon?

If the Hattons 66 was not available, I would expect Bachmann's 66 to be £150 right now.

 

[TomScrut]

2 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Looking at Bachmann prices on Rails for new or forthcoming releases (ie not those discounted a little to clear)

Class 90: £150

Class 47: £150

Class 40: £160

Class 55: £150

Class 45: £135/£145

Class 37: £125

Class 66: £125

 

Is it a false assumption that the 37 & 66 are a little cheaper because competition is available or will be very soon?

If the Hattons 66 was not available, I would expect Bachmann's 66 to be £150 right now.

 

 

Not sure about the 37, for example 37800 was about £150 when it was readily available. I think most at the £125 mark now have been about a while rather than near RRP. Bear in mind the 55 is the one with bigger competition, AS don't seem to be crossing paths with Bachmann on the 37s really I don't think? Other than some of the /4s perhaps. On the other hand they are doing every class member in one guise or another for the 55 if you include the Rails exclusives.

 

But yes the new releases of 66 are cheaper than they were and I'd expect this to be a reaction to competition. Likewise as mentioned before Hornby also have dropped the price on theirs.

 

For a definitive version of a particular loco I wanted I'd pay the £25 more, have the potential hassle of sending back or fixing things, but not when I just want a FL orange loco to pull some HIAs when my 66587 (a loco I specifically wanted) is on container duty. I aren't sure I'll bite at £125, I may wait to see if it drops but if it looks to be flying off the shelves I may change my mind.

 

IF the Hattons ones were closer to sure fire perfection when they turned up I don't think the Bachmann ones would have a market much over £110 TBH.

[7013]

1 hour ago, chris37422 said:

Not sure I agree - Hattons have released some great models - the ZZA snowplough for one is outstanding, and the FEA-E flats are superb as well.  And as you say, Kernow have issued more than their fair share of exclusive items, again many of them being very fine indeed.  Locomotives are definitely in a different league though, with there being so many more things to get right - or indeed wrong! 

Yes indeed locomotives are in a different league....The D6xx 'Warship' from Kernow is definitely in a different league than the Hattons 66, that is why it is Model of the Year, and in my opinion the best RTR diesel loco around.

Edited August 3, 2020 by 7013

[Br60066]

35 minutes ago, 7013 said:

Yes indeed locomotives are in a different league....The D6xx 'Warship' from Kernow is definitely in a different league than the Hattons 66, that is why it is Model of the Year, and in my opinion the best RTR diesel loco around.

D6xx is also not without problem. Have a look on its tread and you will see lots of posts with people having trouble with the motors on DCC operation. Appears to be something to do with an overload capacitor (Im no expert). Guidance to fix this is to cut the component out and solder in a bridge. This, like class 66 axle box modifications, is something the average modeller would not feel happy modifying on a brand new expensive model. Its a shame because the detail is spot on while still feeling like a robust model that you don't have to worry about damaging if you pick it up. Looks like its very difficult for model shops to get everything right when trying to challenge the big manufacturers. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Br60066

[rob D2]

But the thing is Bachmann weren't shifting 66s at £150 and they knew it - 66065 sat around for ages until they got seriously discounted . £80 seems to have done the trick at the MRD sale 

[7013]

40 minutes ago, Br60066 said:

D6xx is also not without problem. Have a look on its tread and you will see lots of posts with people having trouble with the motors on DCC operation. Appears to be something to do with an overload capacitor (Im no expert). Guidance to fix this is to cut the component out and solder in a bridge. This, like class 66 axle box modifications, is something the average modeller would not feel happy modifying on a brand new expensive model. Its a shame because the detail is spot on while still feeling like a robust model that you don't have to worry about damaging if you pick it up. Looks like its very difficult for model shops to get everything right when trying to challenge the big manufacturers. 

Have three D6xx which are fine, but I agree it did have some small issues that were easily resolved. The only issue I had with DCC was that the decoder had to be programmed slightly different, however Kernow issued full instructions on what to do and even offered to do it for me if I couldnt.

It is sad to read about all the 66 problems, my axle boxes kept falling off, I have glued them in as per Hattons fix, but I am not confident they will stay in long term, I will almost certainly cut them off and make them static (non rotating) if they fall off again because it is too much of a faff to start rebuilding/ drilling the bogies etc.  

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

But the thing is Bachmann weren't shifting 66s at £150 and they knew it - 66065 sat around for ages until they got seriously discounted . £80 seems to have done the trick at the MRD sale 

 

I would say there were several things working against it.

 

1. Hattons 66 on the way.

2. Livery is a bit of a funny one. I'd expect most who want DB want a red one and most who want EWS will just get EWS.

3. Factory weathered, the reason I didn't buy it at its bargain price.

 

I don't "get" factory weathering in most cases. It's of little no appeal to those who want pristine or those who want a better job doing of the weathering either professionally or by themselves. Surely this is probably a decent proportion of the market?

 

Only time I can think of it being useful is on Dapol silver bullets as I don't think they are ever silver!

[rob D2]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I would say there were several things working against it.

 

1. Hattons 66 on the way.

2. Livery is a bit of a funny one. I'd expect most who want DB want a red one and most who want EWS will just get EWS.

3. Factory weathered, the reason I didn't buy it at its bargain price.

 

I don't "get" factory weathering in most cases. It's of little no appeal to those who want pristine or those who want a better job doing of the weathering either professionally or by themselves. Surely this is probably a decent proportion of the market?

 

Only time I can think of it being useful is on Dapol silver bullets as I don't think they are ever silver!

IMO, it was simply overpriced for what it is, regardless of livery.
 

With the weathering , they’ll be a large swathe of the market that probably don’t mind it as they don’t / can’t DIY.

 

I don’t mind the factory weathering as my T cut takes it off, but that’s a long job. In the case of 37242 also took off the mainline silver logos ;(

[TomScrut]

15 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

With the weathering , they’ll be a large swathe of the market that probably don’t mind it as they don’t / can’t DIY.

 

But if they ONLY buy weathered then they'll not have much choice anyway.

 

Maybe I am completely wrong but I'd expect that by applying factory weathering to something, as a rule of thumb you'd be making it a niche product.

[cairnsroadworks]

On 01/08/2020 at 17:47, drs37038 said:

Has anyone asked hattons about the colour of 66623 since its release, just wondering what there response was after the picture they published on social media last week showing the colour difference

I’ve asked repeatedly on a variety of forums but the only response was that they got the paint spec from Freightliner, which although is fine doesn’t say if it was the darker or the lighter shade, and evidence points that it was the lighter one. 

[YesTor]

2 hours ago, cairnsroadworks said:

I’ve asked repeatedly on a variety of forums but the only response was that they got the paint spec from Freightliner

 

That's right, I remember Dave stating the same.  But still, it's hardly impossible that perhaps whoever was advising at Freightliner just might have got their wires crossed...   Who can say... 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by YesTor

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Looking at Bachmann prices on Rails for new or forthcoming releases (ie not those discounted a little to clear)

Class 90: £150

Class 47: £150

Class 40: £160

Class 55: £150

Class 45: £135/£145

Class 37: £125

Class 66: £125

 

Is it a false assumption that the 37 & 66 are a little cheaper because competition is available or will be very soon?

If the Hattons 66 was not available, I would expect Bachmann's 66 to be £150 right now.

 

class 47 has competition coming from Heljan

class 55 has competition coming from Accurascale

class 45 (assume 44/46) has competition coming from Heljan

class 37 has competition coming from Accurascale

class 66 has competition from Hattons.

 

indeed with a class 40 and 90 from Hornby, all on that list has competition.

You did omit the 03,04, 08, 20, 24, 25, 42, 43, 70, 85... of which only the 03,04,20,43,70 and 85 dont have competition... of that lot i’d say the 20 is the lowest hanging fruit, and its price is quite low compared to all of them.