Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[spamcan61]

19 hours ago, Jack374 said:

I don’t know whether this point has been raised previously regarding the axlebox caps, so apologies if it has. I removed the axlebox caps, bogie frames and wheels from my second hand bargain model earlier, to address slight wobble and try my own way of fixing the axlebox issue...I’ll report back when I’m done. I started cutting a small amount of material from the bogie frames to try my modification idea.

 

Yes this was mentioned quite a few (?) pages back, and is indeed useful to know; I've tried and failed to find the original posting as it's drowned in the sea of wailing and gnashing of teeth :-/  so thanks for bringing it up again.

[sirwilliamfrs]

28 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Yes this was mentioned quite a few (?) pages back, and is indeed useful to know; I've tried and failed to find the original posting as it's drowned in the sea of wailing and gnashing of teeth :-/  so thanks for bringing it up again.

Is this the one you're looking for? It is the best description I have seen and it works!  https://www.tomstrains.co.uk/2020/fixing-the-axleboxes-on-a-hattons-class-66/

[martin_l_jones]

33 minutes ago, sirwilliamfrs said:

Is this the one you're looking for? It is the best description I have seen and it works!  https://www.tomstrains.co.uk/2020/fixing-the-axleboxes-on-a-hattons-class-66/

 

Very comprehensive, but the last statement is "My 66s now run very nicely, with much less wobble than before, and the axleboxes stay centred whilst they rotate"....

 

So does it work ?

[spamcan61]

52 minutes ago, sirwilliamfrs said:

Is this the one you're looking for? It is the best description I have seen and it works!  https://www.tomstrains.co.uk/2020/fixing-the-axleboxes-on-a-hattons-class-66/

That's the badger! thanks

[Jack374]

3 hours ago, atom3624 said:

Is that a perspective thing, or are those AB holes really that oval?

I think it’s mostly perspective having just had another look at them. There are however some marks inside the hole from glue and wear, whilst a couple of holes have what can only be described as chamfering/'countersinking' on the wheel side due to excess glue which is present on probably 2/3rds+ of the axlebox caps.

 

3 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Yes this was mentioned quite a few (?) pages back...it's drowned in the sea of wailing and gnashing of teeth :-/

 

3 hours ago, sirwilliamfrs said:

Is this the one you're looking for? It is the best description I have seen and it works!  https://www.tomstrains.co.uk/2020/fixing-the-axleboxes-on-a-hattons-class-66/

Thanks both...good to know it’s been mentioned before. Regarding the drowning of posts I completely agree and the thread does feel cyclical at times...

 

Jack.

[letterspider]

Hi I need some help with a pre-owned 66 purchased directly from Hattons

After fitting a new LAIS decoder (1 amp constant 2 amp peak) and placing on the track - the model immediately ran at full power.

The decoder reads and writes and resets but back on the track my eLink reports a short circuit - decoder is burnt out

 

I have taken a look at the PCB and one of the soldered connection looks like it may be bridging the large terminal next to it.

 

Does anyone know their way around this PCB ...?

[Roy Langridge]

7 hours ago, letterspider said:

Hi I need some help with a pre-owned 66 purchased directly from Hattons

After fitting a new LAIS decoder (1 amp constant 2 amp peak) and placing on the track - the model immediately ran at full power.

The decoder reads and writes and resets but back on the track my eLink reports a short circuit - decoder is burnt out

 

I have taken a look at the PCB and one of the soldered connection looks like it may be bridging the large terminal next to it.

 

Does anyone know their way around this PCB ...?

 

I don't know what the large pad is, but I am pretty sure that when I did the light mod on mine, the red wire is the Function Common +ve for the lighting. It should be connected to Pin 16 of the DCC socket if you have a means of checking.

 

That would certainly put a strain on the decoder if it is shorted to something, but I can't explain is running away unless that pad is in some way connected to M+ or M-.

 

Roy

[Markwj]

I watched the interview with hattons at the weekend and notice nothing seemed to be said or asked about the class 66. I had hoped they may have mentioned the axle boxes or offered assurance that this would be fixed on the next batch.

 

[Lowlander]

10 hours ago, letterspider said:

Hi I need some help with a pre-owned 66 purchased directly from Hattons

After fitting a new LAIS decoder (1 amp constant 2 amp peak) and placing on the track - the model immediately ran at full power.

The decoder reads and writes and resets but back on the track my eLink reports a short circuit - decoder is burnt out

 

I have taken a look at the PCB and one of the soldered connection looks like it may be bridging the large terminal next to it.

 

Does anyone know their way around this PCB ...?

Hi

 

Having enlarged the picture it looks like there is a piece of red insulation wrap touching the terminal, so that would rule out shorting.

 

I have read about people on other forums having similar issues with these Lais chips, this time in Bachmann and  Hornby locos. They just don't seem very good, putting it politely.  I think this could be your problem. 

[letterspider]

LAIS chips are cheap - that's why I put them in first!

[Pete the Elaner]

18 minutes ago, Markwj said:

I watched the interview with hattons at the weekend and notice nothing seemed to be said or asked about the class 66. I had hoped they may have mentioned the axle boxes or offered assurance that this would be fixed on the next batch.

 

 

They tried the method of close communication when the 66 was being developed.

Then they failed to meet several dates they had given. I don't think they were trying to mess anyone around, they were just faced with unexpected problems.

Around this time, they seemed to realise why it is often best to say nothing. Don't make promises you can't keep.

 

They may well be trying to find an alternative design for the axleboxes but don't want to say anything in case they can't find a solution they are happy with.

[Pete the Elaner]

Just now, letterspider said:

LAIS chips are cheap - that's why I put them in first!

They are indeed.

I had a gut feeling which prevented me from buying them. I don't know if that is a good thing or not?

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

They are indeed.

I had a gut feeling which prevented me from buying them. I don't know if that is a good thing or not?

To be fair, yes there are some people who have had issues, but many people don’t.

I have used a few, especially some of the function decoders for coach lighting, and had no issues at all. 
 

The manual available seems to improving which is good as it was initially very basic. 
 

Roy

[classy52]

10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

They tried the method of close communication when the 66 was being developed.

Then they failed to meet several dates they had given. I don't think they were trying to mess anyone around, they were just faced with unexpected problems.

Around this time, they seemed to realise why it is often best to say nothing. Don't make promises you can't keep.

 

They may well be trying to find an alternative design for the axleboxes but don't want to say anything in case they can't find a solution they are happy with.

 

I know it may not sound right but they could just purchase loco's from other manufacturers who have implemented rotating AB's (there is a recent one) and reverse engineer those ones to see how its done properly and re-design around the research.

[truffy]

4 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

I know it may not sound right but they could just purchase loco's from other manufacturers who have implemented rotating AB's (there is a recent one) and reverse engineer those ones to see how its done properly and re-design around the research.

Isn't reverse engineering (on a commercial basis) essentially stealing IP? I realise Chinese companies do it all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

 

Or perhaps everyone does it (on a commercial basis).

[spamcan61]

9 minutes ago, truffy said:

Isn't reverse engineering (on a commercial basis) essentially stealing IP? I realise Chinese companies do it all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

 

Or perhaps everyone does it (on a commercial basis).

If the design isn't patented it's fair game.

[3rd Rail Exile]

11 minutes ago, truffy said:

Isn't reverse engineering (on a commercial basis) essentially stealing IP? I realise Chinese companies do it all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

 

Or perhaps everyone does it (on a commercial basis).

If you then make something by directly using that IP, yes (assuming that IP is actually protected, as @spamcan61 points out...).  However, I'm aware of instances where the intention of the reverse engineering was to work out how it was done, and then be able to do the same thing in a way that doesn't infringe the IP.   There is an art to steering "close to the wind" where IP is concerned... (albeit an art I wasn't always 100% comfortable with...)

Edited November 10, 2020 by 3rd Rail Exile

[classy52]

10 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

However, I'm aware of instances where the intention of the reverse engineering was to work out how it was done, and then be able to do the same thing in a way that doesn't infringe the IP. 

 

Yes that's what I meant in my OP.

Edited November 10, 2020 by classy52

[TomScrut]

28 minutes ago, truffy said:

Isn't reverse engineering (on a commercial basis) essentially stealing IP? I realise Chinese companies do it all the time, but that doesn't make it right.

 

Or perhaps everyone does it (on a commercial basis).

 

From what I know on the subject, and whilst not an expert I think I'll know more than average having covered it (briefly) at uni and had a patent search done in the past but I am open to be corrected on these points. And sorry in advance for the long post.

 

Learning how something is done from looking at it and recreating it in your own way is not stealing IP. And I think it is done literally everywhere. For example I'm sure I have heard that car manufacturers buy one or more of their competitors cars when they are launched and take them to bits. I could design a car and learn from what everyone else has done for the last hundred years by putting 4 wheels on it, front two steering.

 

The most common ways of protecting IP (in terms of technology) are copyright and patent AFAIK. Black boxes (i.e. destroys itself during disassembly to prevent reverse engineering) and trademarks are other things but practically speaking not relevant here.

 

Copyright is exactly that, it has to be an exact copy and to defend that copyright you also need pretty solid evidence you did it first. One of the ways of doing something like this in the past I think was to post a copy of it to yourself and not open it so the stamp date etc. offered an independent dating on the work. So in the case of an engineering drawing, one different dimension and it's no longer a copy.

 

Patenting is completely different. Patenting focuses on a concept or idea, but it has to be unique and NOT already be in the public domain (and extensive searches are done by patent offices to this end). So in the case of rotating axle boxes on model railway locomotives, this has already been done and therefore cannot be patented in such a generic way. If you came up with a new way of doing it that could possibly be patented but the wording would have to be such to only cover the way you did it and not how everyone else already does it. The flip side is also that a patent tells everyone else how you actually do it, which makes their lives easier in some respects:

 

1. They can hit the ground running when the patent is no longer valid (might not be time, could be that proof is found that it was done before anyway)

2. IP protection needs enforcement to do its job, which can mean if you don't have the pockets to fight your corner then there is no point in it. So spending the money on patenting something, telling everyone how to do it then when someone breaches it you can't afford to fight it actually puts you at a disadvantage.

3. Somebody could develop the idea further based on the documentation in the patent and get something that isn't covered by it but is technically superior.

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

16 hours ago, letterspider said:

LAIS chips are cheap - that's why I put them in first!

But have uses.

Especially as accessory decoders to run lights...

But some have them in locos that run fine too.

[MRDBLUE17]

Hello everyone,

 

A box from Hattons arrived today following despatch yesterday with my third class 66. It’s 66743 in Royal Scotsman Digital fitted from the pre-owned section. I had spotted this last week but noted damage in the photos not mentioned on the listing so used the message service. Have to say usual excellent service from Hattons, looked into these with the pre-owned team who not only confirmed the issues present but amended the price to reflect these before sending me the new link to it. With that I had no hesitation in buying and out the box and on test it runs far better than the other two did. Although I saw the real loco on the Scotsman looking immaculate last year, it’s worked plenty of freight so will get a bit of weathering and used on that.
 

At some of the prices offered the pre-owned are certainly worth a look.

 

Cheers

Mark

[YesTor]

10 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Patenting is completely different. Patenting focuses on a concept or idea, but it has to be unique and NOT already be in the public domain (and extensive searches are done by patent offices to this end). So in the case of rotating axle boxes on model railway locomotives, this has already been done and therefore cannot be patented in such a generic way. 
 

 

Agreed.  Whilst I'm no expert on patent law, what I do know is that you have to have something pretty damned unique to justify protection.  At the end of the day these are wheels, mounted on axles, rotating within a bogie frame.  The only thing even remotely 'different' from a standard loco axle is the fact that the axle rod is longer - hardly a design 'revolution' I wouldn't have estimated?  Not to mention that several US model manufacturers seem to produce models featuring rotating axle-boxes based upon a similar/same design...

 

Al 

Edited November 11, 2020 by YesTor

[SouthernMafia]

Well I finally took the plunge to sort one of my 66621s lighting out. It's still not right but it's a step in the right direction. The markers now work correctly thanks to the excellent article produced (http://s374444733.websitehome.co.uk/class-66hattons-big-headlights/index.htm) but I'm still not happy about the wrong colour - they should be white. If I'm feeling brave I may look to replace the LEDs one day.

 

I've also sorted the bufferbeam livery issue and have made the black correct for 66621. Original on the left.

 

 

My second 66621 has been renumbered to 66539, but I feel the colours are a little dark so I have asked Steve at Railtec if he can sort some greener replacements.

 

I've also fitted a ModelU driver to 66621, and painted up a GBRf man too.

 

 

 

 

Now, perhaps a little controversially, I've swapped out my EM2 speaker. Whilst it's nice to have one, I actually think it's a little too bassy, and doesn't bring out the mid and high tones of the 66 that well, especially when running on the layout passing a camera, I just thought it sounded a bit like a generic drone noise rather than a 66. So I've replaced it with a 40mm x 28mm high quality speaker and custom enclosure, seen here before the lid was glued on.

 

 

Quite pleased with it, I'll see if I can get a video soon on the club layout.

[mogs 37116]

Not sure whose transfer numbers you have used for 66539 but I've found the Replica Railways pack 41063 Freightliner class 66 numbers to be greener than most of the others

Simon

[SouthernMafia]

14 minutes ago, mogs 37116 said:

Not sure whose transfer numbers you have used for 66539 but I've found the Replica Railways pack 41063 Freightliner class 66 numbers to be greener than most of the others

Simon

 

Thanks, they are Railtec transfers. Steve's having a look to hopefully match them with Hattons green.