Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[TomScrut]

22 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

But this is the question:

 

For me, I think they will either write it off as a bad job and not make any more (doubtful TBH) or make the changes needed to improve it. I think the only reason they haven't said "we will improve in the future" is for business reasons I have already spoken about to death on here.

[TomScrut]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I think once they've gone, they've gone, and at £119 they aint coming back... new Bachmann 57 is 200 notes, and the tooling is much less complex, i’m sure any future Hattons 66’s will have a similar price point.

 

I aren't sure I agree. It has been spoken/hypothesised about on here several times that Bachmann are more expensive than everyone else (and in most cases they are like for like) because of having to compete financially with other companies in the group for production slots. The other thing Hattons don't have to worry as much about is 2 margins although obviously they'll want to make more money from this than an off the shelf item by another manufacturer. I'd also expect if somebody to lose did a 57 (Heljan?) then the price would probably drop.

 

If it was spot on I think it would have as good a case as anything to be a £200 loco anyway! It is also worth noting £200+ looks like the way the market is headed with Heljan going that way with the 47.

[adb968008]

58 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I aren't sure I agree. It has been spoken/hypothesised about on here several times that Bachmann are more expensive than everyone else (and in most cases they are like for like) because of having to compete financially with other companies in the group for production slots. The other thing Hattons don't have to worry as much about is 2 margins although obviously they'll want to make more money from this than an off the shelf item by another manufacturer. I'd also expect if somebody to lose did a 57 (Heljan?) then the price would probably drop.

 

If it was spot on I think it would have as good a case as anything to be a £200 loco anyway! It is also worth noting £200+ looks like the way the market is headed with Heljan going that way with the 47.

Not to scare you,

 

but Accurascale have indicated a forthcoming price rise on the class 92 as well... Friday 19th March it goes up £20, to £180.

Lets see what red box prices looks like next week.

 

 

[TomScrut]

34 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Not to scare you,

 

but Accurascale have indicated a forthcoming price rise on the class 92 as well... Friday 19th March it goes up £20, to £180.

Lets see what red box prices looks like next week.

 

 

 

Exactly. If AS can do the 92 for £180 then that means everyone else charging more has more margin to account for. It must surely be the most complex loco coming up in terms of electronics, and then the detail looks pretty amazing too (although the prototype is overall pretty basic in shape, the roof is chaos). I also wonder if the price increase is because of some added unforeseen complexity in the pantographs given the 37 and 55 have stayed as they were.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

But if they're selling like hot cakes, best get some more in.

 

I dont think Hattons bet on both Hornby and Bachmann duplicating everything they had planned.

I dont recall a scissor action being performed in the model railway market ever before, with such remarkable coincidental timing.

its very aggressive competitive behaviour.

The response by Hattons may be a counter action, rather than a reaction to slow sales, they did launch the sale on the cusp of Bachmanns releases.

 

Either way, for us consumers, we have more “bargain 66’s” than at any time previous.

Imho Hornby was the winner, just money for old rope, cheap to make, quick off the mark... Hattons had a perfect model, literally with a wobble.

if you want to plonk and play, the Bachmann model is good. If you collect, or like to do some modelling, the Hattons model is perfect.
 

Whilst its not inconceivable that Hattons could roll out more 66’s in 2021, I would think an air-gap may occur, to allow the excess to be soaked up... imho theres too many 66’s out there.

Whilst there are 358 class 66’s on ebay tonight just 3 of them are “Hattons”..., all 3 are above Hattons sale price, so obviously the sellers arent in a rush. The market is speaking about which they prefer to keep hold of and which they want to let go, but I’m not convinced its a call to produce even more... by any manufacturer.

 

Unless we see some new liveries on the mainline, I think it may go quiet for a while.

 

ive got to be honest i’m thinking if going on step further, I have some Bachmann 66’s (Sorrento, Yiwu etc) that i’m thinking to put on a Hattons chassis.. (thats where the winning difference is between the models).. I suspect If I shed some Hattons bodies on ebay my arm would be yanked off at the shoulder, making the option possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Unless we see some new liveries on the mainline, I think it may go quiet for a while.

 

Yes I don't see them doing new ones for the sake of it, I think it will either be runs of any new livery that appears or that they haven't done to death already, or celebs depending on the contractual nature of any that have been done already. I'd expect Evening Star, Tom Moore, TFL, either Rainbow (children's or pride), any of the Maritime ones to do well as they are either not done in RTR other than respray or relatively sought after other than ES which is a special loco in itself. I also think another orange FL (in the correct colour) would sell well as it's only going to become more common.

Edited January 1, 2021 by TomScrut

[dogbox321]

Hi - quick question - has anyone had problems with EWS & DB Class 66's having either faulty lights or lots of light bleed?  Tried a search to no avail and not enough hours in the day to scroll through 174 pages.

 

Any assistance most appreciated,

 

Many Thanks,

 

Chris.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, dogbox321 said:

faulty lights or lots of light bleed

 

Light bleed is a known issue on some of these. Painting the inside of the body black is the solution AFAIK.

 

Which lights not working? I have had quite a lot of trouble with logic level lights when in 10 function mode but never had an issue with decoder driven lights (6 or less functions).

 

If on DCC with 6 or less functions make sure that the decoder is powered on all outputs (no logic level outputs), the Hattons 66 has markers, tails and day lights on powered and then night lights and cab lights on logic level.

[adb968008]

When converting my Lima locos to ViTrains or Bachmann chassis, I use silver foil stuck with double sided tape to the inside of the body, then using a cocktail stick, just poke a hole through it, through the light clusters. (I’ll drill out the headlight at the same time to give working headlights on Lima 37’s).

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

On 01/01/2021 at 21:40, TomScrut said:

 

 I also think another orange FL (in the correct colour) would sell well as it's only going to become more common.

On one hand i’m surprised the G&W 66 isnt more popular, being a new livery.

 

However on the other hand, it is quite simply a yack livery.

59203 keeps wandering around our neighborhood. I can only think that at Acton Lane, there must be an old hand in the staff, who is reliving the “LBSC Improved Engine green” glory days, and keeps sending “Freightliner Impaired Engine Green” livery our way.

 

 

 

That or perhaps Mereheads banished it from their midst 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[Johnfromoz]

5 hours ago, dogbox321 said:

Hi - quick question - has anyone had problems with EWS & DB Class 66's having either faulty lights or lots of light bleed?  Tried a search to no avail and not enough hours in the day to scroll through 174 pages.

 

Any assistance most appreciated,

 

Many Thanks,

 

Chris.

Yes, I have a number of these, interestingly iT is the ESU V5 sound versions with light failures (day or night lamps randomly out, rear reds out) despite having switches set correctly.  My non-sound versions with Hattons 6 function chips are fine.

[TomScrut]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

On one hand i’m surprised the G&W 66 isnt more popular, being a new livery.

 

However on the other hand, it is quite simply a yack livery.

 

I like it although I think the full yellow front on the 59s is a bit too "in yer face".

 

The biggest problem for the Hattons release is they screwed the orange up. It will be interesting to see how many Bachmann ones there are in shops in a few months.

[rob D2]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I dont think Hattons bet on both Hornby and Bachmann duplicating everything they had planned.

I dont recall a scissor action being performed in the model railway market ever before, with such remarkable coincidental timing.

its very aggressive competitive behaviour.

The response by Hattons may be a counter action, rather than a reaction to slow sales, they did launch the sale on the cusp of Bachmanns releases.

 

Either way, for us consumers, we have more “bargain 66’s” than at any time previous.

Imho Hornby was the winner, just money for old rope, cheap to make, quick off the mark... Hattons had a perfect model, literally with a wobble.

if you want to plonk and play, the Bachmann model is good. If you collect, or like to do some modelling, the Hattons model is perfect.
 

Whilst its not inconceivable that Hattons could roll out more 66’s in 2021, I would think an air-gap may occur, to allow the excess to be soaked up... imho theres too many 66’s out there.

Whilst there are 358 class 66’s on ebay tonight just 3 of them are “Hattons”..., all 3 are above Hattons sale price, so obviously the sellers arent in a rush. The market is speaking about which they prefer to keep hold of and which they want to let go, but I’m not convinced its a call to produce even more... by any manufacturer.

 

Unless we see some new liveries on the mainline, I think it may go quiet for a while.

 

ive got to be honest i’m thinking if going on step further, I have some Bachmann 66’s (Sorrento, Yiwu etc) that i’m thinking to put on a Hattons chassis.. (thats where the winning difference is between the models).. I suspect If I shed some Hattons bodies on ebay my arm would be yanked off at the shoulder, making the option possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with most of what you say .

 

I’ve said it several times, but I’ll always take issue with  the notion that  declares fixing manufacturing faults as “ modelling “ as though the rest of us are lesser mortals . Thats  no more modelling than me changing the pedals on my bike is entering the Tour de France .

 

It should be “ plonk and play “. It’s a brand new product . It shouldn’t be the other end of the spectrum “ f£&k about for hours in frustration “. That’s not modelling .

 

I had to laugh when someone said they think it’s a great product , but they glue the axle boxes as they don’t need that . That was one of the USPs we were told and it doesn’t work . 
 

and yes the GW livery isn’t great  to my eyes, but they got the colour wrong so that’ll be the reason it hasn’t flown off the shelves .

Edited January 2, 2021 by rob D2

[TomScrut]

10 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I’ve said it several times, but I’ll always take issue with  the notion that  declares fixing manufacturing faults as “ modelling “ as though the rest of us are lesser mortals . Thats  no more modelling than me changing the pedals on my bike is entering the Tour de France .

 

It should be “ plonk and play “. It’s a brand new product . It shouldn’t be the other end of the spectrum “ f£&k about for hours in frustration “. That’s not modelling .

 

Yes I really don't like the superiority complex some people have because they are "modellers" and some are "box openers". As you say it should work out of the box, and I am willing to faff a bit to the point where I think before I start if it's more convenient to send it back, but I won't frown upon anybody for expecting something to work out of the box and sending it back if it doesn't.

 

I think the thing is that some people seem to think that modelling is the hobby. The hobby is model railways, it doesn't stipulate whether you have done some of the modelling yourself, and given most people start off as box openers I don't see it right to frown upon that practise especially when it's a large proportion of the market (as be the RTR part of the hobby depends on all of the market).

 

15 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I had to laugh when someone said they think it’s a great product , but they glue the axle boxes as they don’t need that . That was one of the USPs we were told and it doesn’t work . 

 

It is annoying the special feature doesn't work, but OTOH it wasn't a selling feature for me. The lighting functionality and overall better detail (air dam being a big factor) were why I wanted Hattons 66s. When I get round to doing some "modelling" (I am busy layout building at the moment) I might permanently fix my axle boxes just because I CBA sending out search parties for them every few hours.

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

I think the thing is that some people seem to think that modelling is the hobby.

 

For many of us it is. Sorry that this offends you so much. Perhaps those who like making things should leave.

[TomScrut]

47 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

For many of us it is. Sorry that this offends you so much. Perhaps those who like making things should leave.

 

I'm sorry that I wrote my post in such a way for it to be so grossly misinterpreted. That's not what I meant and I didn't think that is how the post could be interpreted TBH nor that my post could somehow be twisted into me somehow looking down on or disliking modellers. It doesn't offend me at all that people like making things, I like making things too just not to the extent of others. I have a lot of respect for a lot of the modelling work that gets done. I just don't like it when the people who don't model are looked down upon, as they often are on here by some. There are snarky remarks dotted about the forum about "box openers" and that's all I was complaining about as I think it's unfair.

 

Modelling is maybe the part of the hobby you do most/are most interested in, but as a collective model railways covers a lot more than that. If the forum and magazine were limited to self proclaimed modellers I expect they'd both have a lot smaller uptake.

 

Like most things in life when we segregate and divide things tend to get worse not better. I think modellers need box openers and box openers need modellers to keep the idea of walking into a shop and buying something to do with model railways alive, not to mention the collectors who don't even open boxes who are just as entitled to a quality product as the rest of us. The market isn't big enough for one type of customer to disappear I don't think and most "modellers" do rely on RTR as their starting point.

 

At what point does somebody transition from a box opener to a modeller? Fitting a detailing pack? Renumbering? Making something from scratch? Fastening some track to a board?

Edited January 2, 2021 by TomScrut

[rob D2]

I think I understand what you are saying, and yes, Phil misinterpreted it a little.

 

I’m not getting into that debate again about where the lines are drawn . I’ll only bite if I see some  thing that comes across as “ condescending “, because that is utterly illogical .

 

And I’ll do some “ modelling “ , I renumber stuff, I respray stuff, I add bufferbeam stuff. But I won’t try and fix a loco just delivered from China with say , a set of steps missing.
 

Funnily enough, I had a conversation with Simon Kohler on email about my frustration with locos in one off schemes that I thought were bound for the bargain bin such as the purple 56 , I was surprised how many buy these just for novelty value it seems  - modellers ? Collectors ? Who knows, who cares.

[dogbox321]

Hi All,

 

To "Shed" a little light on the subject.......

 

66097 2nd Attempt, 66125, 66097 1st Attempt, 66528.

 

     

 

 

 

Best Wishes and many thanks in anticipation.

 

Remain safe,

 

Chris.

 

P.S.  In relation to some others comments.  Then I can understand all frustrations - I 've spent a good many hours trying to sort some of these out.  66528 has been a super pig, and still wobbles when axle boxes are put in.  My philosophy has been that these Class 66's are a superb model, if you are prepared to put a little work in, and sometimes a great deal of time, and to purchase any of these I believe you need to accept that. 

 

Regards modeller V RTR put it on the track.  Its not quite what was promised, and I can understand how for someone purchasing a model they expect it to run "Right" out of the box.  But we are where we are.  If you want a Class 66 that goes straight on the track there are other options, but with less detail.  Its a trade off.  There are a good many good modellers out there, and its to their credit that they can turn their hands to these locomotives, identify the issues and assist us mere mortals!  The great thing about this hobby is its diversity, and its ability to cover a very wide skills base and that we are all better at some things than others.  People can do anything from buy a train set to scratch build a locomotive or wagon.  The main thing is that we "enjoy it" and support each other in areas where our skills are lacking, so we all get more from our hobby.  In that way we can all hopefully learn things and develop.  As soon as we can all respect each other and that we are all different, including have differing views, RMweb will be a much happier place.  Anyway back to shed lighting.......  

[john new]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

For many of us it is. Sorry that this offends you so much. Perhaps those who like making things should leave.

 

Surely the key issue is that the purchased item should be fit for the purpose of what it says it is sold for, not whether or not you are a modeller. Examples -

• RTR - should be 100% runnable with all the bits that are supposed to be attached actually attached and with a life expectancy of more than a small amount of running. Whether it is dimensionally accurate or not is a different issue here entirely, WYSIWG applies.
• Kits - they should (a) be buildable and (b) buildable into what they are supposed to be, again check WYSIWG before you purchase. As this link to Wright Writes shows even kits from reputable sources have errors.

What we have seen over the years are examples of both the above not being the case, again as an example the Hornby Q6 motors had/have an issue so it is not just the 66 model, and on many a thread about kits there are quotes about misfitting parts and other bodges needed.

 

I have bought a Hornby Q6, it hasn't had much use yet and my shunting plank use is unlikely to overheat a motor, I expect it to live as long as my old H/Dublo has, but will it if it gets used on a bigger layout in the future, perhaps a loop around the garden? If I got one of the rogues I may have to fit a new motor at some point (Modelling) the fact is it shouldn't need it.

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by john new

[TomScrut]

7 minutes ago, dogbox321 said:

To "Shed" a little light on the subject.......

 

Are you on DCC? If so what decoder do you have fitted and what functions do you have active?

 

For example if you're on DCC 6 function with day selected on the switch with all functions on then that's OK other than 97s high level marker being out on the first pic.

 

If you're on DC something is amiss, if you're on DCC we could do with knowing the decoder, the switch positions and the functions or outputs you have active on the decoder.

 

10 minutes ago, dogbox321 said:

As soon as we can all respect each other and that we are all different, including have differing views, RMweb will be a much happier place. 

 

Exactly, that's all I want.

[rob D2]

You’ll always get differing views ...that’s the nature of the world and even toy trains ...

 

I guess it’s all down to how we express them . I’m often a bit blunt when I look back - I’m not intending to be - it’s just an economy of words typing on this thing I think .

 

And of course it’s easy for written word  to look more aggressive than it was intended .

 

Anyway , enjoy your modelling in whatever form and here’s to 2021 smelling less of poop than 2020!

Edited January 2, 2021 by rob D2

[charliepetty]

On 29/12/2020 at 01:00, TomScrut said:

 

Yeah I thought Zimo did one but I cannot see it on their site.

 

Note it has to be an MKL Lokpilot/Loksound not the standard one so that the first 6 outputs are powered by the decoder. 59649 or 59659 are the decoder numbers for LP5. 659 is the DCC one which doesn't support AC or some of the more exotic control protocols used in Europe, but it is cheaper. Note the speed and acceleration settings vary between the two types as well.

 

If buying in quantity then they are cheaper from Germany in my experience.

These can be obtained from DCKits-Legomanbiffo @

https://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=272&search=ESU+59659

 

[truffy]

18 hours ago, TomScrut said:

If AS can do the 92 for £180 then that means everyone else charging more has more margin to account for.

Without knowing each company’s cost structure for each model, that is completely baseless speculation.  Simple fact is we don’t know and we don’t need to know. Each of us has our own cost/benefit point of view, and that’s the only thing that matters. 
 

Compared to the scalpers on thief-bay, it all looks pretty reasonable to me. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by truffy

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, truffy said:

Without knowing each company’s cost structure for each model, that is completely baseless speculation. 

 

I don't think it is baseless speculation to be honest, but I should have maybe written it more thoroughly. I know what I meant but it doesn't really say that but I'd rather not elaborate further in public.

[charliepetty]

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Are you on DCC? If so what decoder do you have fitted and what functions do you have active?

 

For example if you're on DCC 6 function with day selected on the switch with all functions on then that's OK other than 97s high level marker being out on the first pic.

 

If you're on DC something is amiss, if you're on DCC we could do with knowing the decoder, the switch positions and the functions or outputs you have active on the decoder.

 

 

Exactly, that's all I want.

The Hattons loco's are overall really good, but the company I think we a little over ambitious, with the quantities and variations made available.  The DCC Side of the design is  spot on and does what others only wish for.   Hattons should have brought out a small number, then correct the enivitable issues that new designs have (look at Dapol & Heljan for that).  The Bachmann 66 is a hard act to follow, but after 15 years the 'Bugs' will be long gone.  We have three of the Hattons 66 and I am most impressed overall with the product, mainly just silly 'First Run' issues, some of which would have been avoided if they had not wanted an All Singing & Dancing Model!!!

We produced the sound for the model and advised on the speakers, Well done need to be said more often, as with experience Hattons will learn the In's & Out's of Chinese Manufacturers.