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Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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On 14/01/2020 at 09:25, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hello Daniel,

 

Owing to some unavoidable delays in the shipping process, we have provided an updated delivery schedule on our website. We’re now expecting all versions of the models ending 033 to 037 arrive with us around the end of February/early March. 

See the full delivery schedule, here: http://bit.ly/38fo4qn

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

Useful to know. Thanks for coming back to me, Dave.

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4 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Shall I just throw all my years of project management and running a company in the bin then and just start trusting what suppliers tell me? The whole point of metrics would be to increase accuracy of forecasting - they are not a "fudge factor". Mature* organisations use them extensively. You can develop metrics for different types of contract (say new loco, retooled loco, coach, wagon) and for different factories.

 

Anyhow, what do I know...
 

Roy

 

*Mature in terms of process employed, not years in existence.

 

 

No need to patronise me on what metrics are. They are a prediction and therefore to an extent are a "fudge factor".

 

Definition of fudge factor according to Google:

"a figure included in a calculation to account for some unquantified but significant phenomenon or to ensure a desired result."

 

Regardless of how one may try to quantify an amount of time it takes to make something using metrics, it is only improving the estimate and therefore it is still unquantified. So the way I see it it's a fudge factor albeit an educated one.

 

Anyway, you're going on about metrics and not responding to my point that when it comes to giving a date to customers (in this case) it is in my opinion probably more beneficial to not account for problems and to give an ideal world date. The downsides of something coming early outweigh those of it coming late.

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2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:


Off topic, but Black Swans is more about unknown unknowns, not known unknowns. You can’t use metrics for black swan events, but most delays out of China are for known reasons, New Year for example. 
 

Roy

 

I do agree with you here, the issues with China are not generally black swans. It's just that there are that many potential issues that statistically I would expect in the case of these types products (i.e. stuff to go wrong, not annual events like New Year which are easy to account for) where tooling, samples, corrections and production are all done over there that the variance is that big that the date outcome is the most likely date yet still unlikely. That's before the CAD work time (which I know for a fact is difficult to predict) is accounted for.

 

What's most likely, the model rail industry are completely ignorant to the concept of metrics or that they have a view similar to mine regarding public release dates?

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2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:


Off topic, but Black Swans is more about unknown unknowns, not known unknowns. You can’t use metrics for black swan events, but most delays out of China are for known reasons, New Year for example. 
 

Roy

Black swans aren't unknown unknowns, they are major events that are previously unexperienced and when evidence points towards them becoming a thing/occurence those responsible for dealing with them can't comprehend and therefore can't prevent or manage them.

 

9/11 is a good example - there was plenty of evidence that terrorists planned to fly planes into buildings but because it had never happened before those responsible for counter-terrorism simply dismissed the evidence. It was a harsh lesson for the FBI. Black swans happen when people rely on metrics - the refusal to use imagination and follow evidence means these are predictable in advance but are ignored by those who use "metrics" and precedent.

 

Taleb's book is a thought provoking read.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

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Other than Big Jim’s message,

I have absolutely no idea what precisely the xxxx p74 of this thread is talking about.

 

when you manage to get 9/11 into a thread about a baby shed I think your doing rather well with the thread creap.

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3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I have absolutely no idea what precisely the xxxx p74 of this thread is talking about.

With all this talk of black swans I assumed everyone had been to Dawlish!

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19 hours ago, The Black Prince said:

The "EWS" font has been wrong since the first samples and they ignored everyone's advice... 

 

14 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Is the font still wrong on production ones then ? 

 

Unfortunately, yes.  Frustrating really as to why this was completely ignored, the font for EWS and 66XXX clearly of the same style, weight etc...


66207_EWS_font.jpg.9e1bce1d9f47fc83e3c9702220eef947.jpg



Whereas on the model the EWS is clearly much finer...
 

H4-66-001_3398552_Qty1_3.jpg.b8a148f20cb12384f967c1a9e24c80e5.jpg

 

 

I was initially pleased too that 66207 was chosen with its mismatched cab doors, but sadly these also seem to have been portrayed with only one cab door being mismatched when in fact both should be as such... 

 

66207_doors.jpg.ee178349693682da4ebdc5530148bf8e.jpg

 

H4-66-004_3398561_Qty1_3.jpg.93e1375d770f90728d94c5881423d9b8.jpg

 


Purely frustrating more than anything, as I'd planned on at least a couple of examples in EWS livery.  Still, it hasn't detracted me from purchasing other liveries - and let's be honest there's a lot to choose from - as I do feel this to be an otherwise quite stunning model.  The level of detail really is most impressive - the solebar area and bogies really are quite something, cab detail is really captured well with some really nice details inside, and the bodyside grilles do indeed look fantastic and far better/finer than I had anticipated, in fact.  For me it's turning into one of those models that 'the child within' forces me to keep returning to for another 'peep', just in case I missed something...    :lol:

 

Remove the bodyshell and inside everything is very neat, tidy and very well thought through, such as the contact plungers bridging the electrical connections from chassis to roof, meaning there's no cumbersome wires to deal with when removing the body - a nice touch.  The only part whereby I broke out into a cold-sweat was actually getting the bodyshell back on, as while the body itself is designed to simply slide and clip onto the chassis, the presence of the cab door steps/handrails hanging from the body itself means that all four step assemblies have to be maneuvered simultaneously (and rather awkwardly) over the chassis and are a very tight fit and additionally very, very delicate.  I cannot actually foresee many of these oh-so-delicate parts surviving many bodyshell removal/re-assembly sessions.  Although to be fair, it is difficult to see how this feature could have been designed any differently, as the steps/rails either need to be attached to the chassis, which would result in an unrealistic gap between the steps/handrails and the body, or mounted on the body itself resulting in the delicate assembly that we have.  Tricky.

 

Overall, from the four locos I initially received, two were returned due to being 'wobbly' runners (despite several hours running in of both) and I'm currently (and eagerly) awaiting replacements.  The other two that I have here - now they've been run in at length -  really feel to be substantial, weighty, and super-smooth-running models.  When all is said and done, I've been harping on about someone producing a top-notch 'shed' for what seems like an eternity, so maybe I'm in a slight minority in being optimistically confident that once these apparent teething troubles are ironed out that these 'sheds' will be worth the patience that seems to be required in some cases.    

 

And now I simply can't wait for the sound versions!   :ok:

 

(PS...  Dave, please, please, pleeeeease sort out the EWS fonts for the next run...?!)

 

cheers

Al

 

 

Edited by YesTor
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4 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

 

Unfortunately, yes.  Frustrating really as to why this was completely ignored, the font for EWS and 66XXX clearly of the same style, weight etc...

 

 

 

I think 'weight' is a very strange way to describe it. My initial thought when I saw you describe it that way was that you felt the paint itself was slightly too light in colour or see-through.

Your photos do make the colour seem slightly light but lighting conditions can cause this so I'll not comment on that. Indoor lighting if often too warm & although modern cameras are good at correcting it, they still look different to photos taken in sunlight.

What does look a bit out is the width of the text. EWS itself looks a little too wide, particularly noticeable on the W & S. This is creating an illusion that the typeface is too wide, but I am not sure this is the case.

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I agree with Yes Tor that the letter width on the EWS is too narrow when compared to the real thing.  
 

I am currently holding off buying one until I see one in the flesh.  I plan to keep all my Bachy machines as they run incredibly reliably and handle the vigour of exhibition handling but would like Hattons versions for running on my home layout.

 

Has anyone a comparison photo of a Bachy EWS machine and the Hattons version?


Andrew

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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I think 'weight' is a very strange way to describe it. My initial thought when I saw you describe it that way was that you felt the paint itself was slightly too light in colour or see-through.

Your photos do make the colour seem slightly light but lighting conditions can cause this so I'll not comment on that. Indoor lighting if often too warm & although modern cameras are good at correcting it, they still look different to photos taken in sunlight.

What does look a bit out is the width of the text. EWS itself looks a little too wide, particularly noticeable on the W & S. This is creating an illusion that the typeface is too wide, but I am not sure this is the case.

Weight is the correct typographical term, undoubtedly dating back to the days when type comprised solid pieces to make up the individual letters.

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14 minutes ago, stock_2007 said:

Just when your wondering where your loco is?  You can always rely on somebody starting on about a livery not being just right. :crazy_mini:

Several years ago, I was taught at work that regional managers would always find something wrong when doing their visit/inspection. If it was not something obvious, they would get fussy.

I feel some are this way when scrutinising models.

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13 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

No need to patronise me on what metrics are. They are a prediction and therefore to an extent are a "fudge factor".

 

Definition of fudge factor according to Google:

"a figure included in a calculation to account for some unquantified but significant phenomenon or to ensure a desired result."

 

Regardless of how one may try to quantify an amount of time it takes to make something using metrics, it is only improving the estimate and therefore it is still unquantified. So the way I see it it's a fudge factor albeit an educated one.

 

Anyway, you're going on about metrics and not responding to my point that when it comes to giving a date to customers (in this case) it is in my opinion probably more beneficial to not account for problems and to give an ideal world date. The downsides of something coming early outweigh those of it coming late.


Not trying to patronise. The point of metrics is to make things quantifiable, and hence not a fudge factor. 
 

As to your later point re early/late , I believe I did respond. Personally, I think more people would cancel through late delivery than through early delivery. Given the former is not common, I guess neither of us has statistics in which to make a statement on the basis of fact. 
 

Roy

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44 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Several years ago, I was taught at work that regional managers would always find something wrong when doing their visit/inspection. If it was not something obvious, they would get fussy.

I feel some are this way when scrutinising models.

 

Are you saying that Hattons may have made the text deliberately too wide to distract the punter from looking at the dimensions, chassis and ... rotating axleboxes?  !!

 

Al.

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50 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:


Not trying to patronise. The point of metrics is to make things quantifiable, and hence not a fudge factor. 
 

As to your later point re early/late , I believe I did respond. Personally, I think more people would cancel through late delivery than through early delivery. Given the former is not common, I guess neither of us has statistics in which to make a statement on the basis of fact. 
 

Roy

 

Fair dos, and I do accept your point about there being very little data (unfortunately) on early arrivals. I do see quite a few posts either on here or Facebook with "gives me time to save up" but don't see many with "I'm cancelling now it's delayed" so that's what I was going off. But obviously I don't have any figures!

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2 hours ago, stock_2007 said:

Just when your wondering where your loco is?  You can always rely on somebody starting on about a livery not being just right. :crazy_mini:

Letters being too narrow, and cab doors the wrong colour is kinda closer to a country mile out I think . Someone dropped the ball in checking this.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, stock_2007 said:

its all a little late to change the livery now:crazy_mini:

 

Not disagreeing with you, but to those of whom it matters, it may not be too late to cancel, and certainly not too late to not place an order in the first place.

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4 hours ago, atom3624 said:

 

Are you saying that Hattons may have made the text deliberately too wide to distract the punter from looking at the dimensions, chassis and ... rotating axleboxes?  !!

 

Al.

No.

Just that no matter how good they make the model, some will find fault with it.

 

The font does look too wide when compared with a photo of the real thing, but I doubt I would have noticed otherwise.

Most of us already put up with a huge compromise which is OO.

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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

No.

Just that no matter how good they make the model, some will find fault with it.

Are you trying to say that if it was possible to shrink a real 66 down to 4mm scale somebody would STILL find fault with it?

 

Oh there is no need to answer because I think we all KNOW the answer to that one!

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12 hours ago, mevaman1 said:

I am currently holding off buying one until I see one in the flesh.  I plan to keep all my Bachy machines as they run incredibly reliably and handle the vigour of exhibition handling but would like Hattons versions for running on my home layout.

 

Has anyone a comparison photo of a Bachy EWS machine and the Hattons version? 

 

Good point.  Fortunately, my models aren't subjected to the rigours of exhibition handling.  To be honest, I'd say that whilst this might well be the heftiest locomotive in terms of weight, chassis construction etc, it is also undoubtedly the most delicate.  I must emphasise though that this latter point is by no means a criticism, in fact it is more testament to the sheer wealth of detail that is present on the model, especially below the solebar, which of course is perhaps the most characteristic part of the Class 66 design, and in my view this has been captured incredibly well; and not to forget the very fine bodyside grilles, which really are superb.    But yeah, in short, this sure ain't no model for the ham-fisted.  With regard to longer-term reliability, well, who can say?  As with anything new, I guess that only time will tell.

Unfortunately, I literally sold the last of my Bachmann 66s only a few days ago, so sadly I am no longer able to photograph the two side-by-side.  However, my personal observations were that both could be happily ran together without the feeling of either looking 'alien' etc.  I'm a little annoyed with myself for not taking any comparison photos actually, oh well.

 

To add, I'd imagine that the workhorse 'shed' is actually quite a challenge from a design perspective to translate into model form, as quite a lot of detail actually transcends between body and solebar/underframe - essentially right across the main joining of the two separating sections of any model locomotive.  I've made various attempts in the past - some more successful than others - to improve the Bachmann model in this area, and from personal experience the most challenging parts have been the solebar and solebar-to-body areas.  What does strike me though, is that the Hattons 66 really begins to feel more like a carefully engineered piece of kit, as opposed to simply a plastic train containing a motor, so in this respect certainly feels to raise the bar somewhat.  That's not to excuse the livery glitches, as really these should have been avoidable, but then perhaps that's more a consequence of attempting to approve thirty-seven different versions all at one time, quite a feat for anyone I would imagine?  If there are issues to resolve - as there often seems to be with the initial run of any model -  then hopefully Hattons will address those, as I'm pretty sure that if they do this will be a benchmark diesel model for many, myself included.
 

cheers

Al

 

 

 

 

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