Class 66 in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[spamcan61]

12 minutes ago, Walkes07 said:

How did u modified it?

The mods. are described a page or two back in this thread.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by spamcan61

[pteandy1402]

The batch of colas 66 i got the circuit board that has the leds on it for markers/ tail light/ and headlights (day/night). It has 4 leds the top 2 are the night/day headlights and they have there own light pipe to the larger headlight openings. The other lower 2 leds are bimodal white/red leds that are the markers/ tail lights and have light pipes to the smaller openings. The circuit board tracks only allow one marker and the opposite headlight to illuminate which is incorrect you should have both markers and top marker for all modes day, night and yard

[pteandy1402]

All modifications are done at your own risk as it requires delicate and accurate cutting of circuit board tracks, adding extra wires and removal of most of the switches but To modify the lights to be prototypical you remove the plastic light shield on the 10mm square led circuit board cut the tracks that feed the headlights to isolate them from the markers join them together  then add a wire from each of the headlight circuits back to the main board so they are all independent of one and another markers x2, day headlight and night headlight and tail lights so running fro. Each light board you have a common positive and 4x negative function outputs

[YesTor]

5 hours ago, pteandy1402 said:

All modifications are done at your own risk as it requires delicate and accurate cutting of circuit board tracks, adding extra wires and removal of most of the switches but To modify the lights to be prototypical you remove the plastic light shield on the 10mm square led circuit board cut the tracks that feed the headlights to isolate them from the markers join them together  then add a wire from each of the headlight circuits back to the main board so they are all independent of one and another markers x2, day headlight and night headlight and tail lights so running fro. Each light board you have a common positive and 4x negative function outputs

 

Interesting.  Where is the circuit board actually mounted, inside the bodyshell, or on the actual chassis?  Perhaps a photo or two of the inside of the loco would be possible which might assist in illustrating the modification to those of us not quite so savvy with such things?

 

cheers

Al

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by YesTor

[7013]

I think you would have to be very savvy if the modification is as tricky as it sounds. I wouldn’t touch it with the proverbial 10’ barge pole. Mind you, that would probably wreck the model altogether!

[Pete the Elaner]

28 minutes ago, 7013 said:

I think you would have to be very savvy if the modification is as tricky as it sounds. I wouldn’t touch it with the proverbial 10’ barge pole. Mind you, that would probably wreck the model altogether!

I was hoping that the mod may be so simple that Hattons would do it themselves before sending the models out.

It sounds like a replacement board may be the most practical solution but I doubt this will be a viable solution.

[Pre Grouping fan]

7 hours ago, YesTor said:

 

Interesting.  Where is the circuit board actually mounted, inside the bodyshell, or on the actual chassis?  Perhaps a photo or two of the inside of the loco would be possible which might assist in illustrating the modification to those of us not quite so savvy with such things?

 

cheers

Al

 

Everything eccept the top marker and cab light is on the chassis, these are connected via sprung plungers onto the circuit board behind the bab bulkhead. Everard Junctions video shows this as he removed the body

[pteandy1402]

Unless you have knowledge of circuitry and soldering skills i wouldnt reccomend it. I agree with pre grouping fan thay to get the correct lighting modes a  complete mainboard and the 2 lighting boards complete

[Sir TophamHatt]

On ‎16‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 10:59, spamcan61 said:

Personally I doubt if it makes business sense to spend the extra time and money trying to keep the fussiest 5% of potential buyers happy in this context.

I wasn't referring to 5% of people

5% of the product quality,

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

I wasn't referring to 5% of people

5% of the product quality,

But now the locos are built, what do they do?

Fix what they can at minimal cost?

Return the entire lot to the manufacturer for major modifications? If they do this, then they need to be re-scheduled in to the next production slot, which will probably be 4-5 months time..then who pays? Whoever is at fault, the cost eventually gets back to the buyer & the models increase price by a significant amount, or someone goes out of business & the models are lost forever.

The minimal cost option sounds the most manageable one.

[Jack374]

A question for Hattons and any other manufacturer generally...who checks these models before production?

 

I ask because on the Hattons 66 (I’m using this as a prime example, however many other manufacturers and products have also fallen foul) there are now 2 (AFAIK) pronounced and yet relatively simple livery errors - the Colas colour transition position and Freightliner yellow/bufferbeam issue. In addition, the lights on the large headlight variants do not work as intended.

 

In each case, these errors have been picked up by consumers. I spotted the Colas error because the text didn’t look correct to me. Upon checking, this was confirmed as an error with the livery. It didn’t take long (5 minutes) to search for and check dates to ensure it’s always been this way on the real thing.

 

The light issue could’ve been checked by carrying out a full light functionality check of all variants (both WIPAC styles and larger headlight style). I saw a pre-production sample (Freightliner PowerHaul) running at a show before release, and questioned the colour of the lights (look too orange) and the fact that the marker light on the headlight side wasn’t illuminated. From the pictures supplied by pteandy1402 amongst others, it appears these are both errors on production models. For both of these issues, it was agreed (between myself and the custodian of the model) that this was a pre-prod sample and that the issues would most likely be resolved, however this was never confirmed with Hattons. I don’t believe they had the model on the premise of checking any detail accuracy.

 

So my point in all of this is a question - would it make sense for manufacturers to ask modellers to comb over final livery specs, functionality and any other considerations before manufacture? I have absolutely no doubt that Hattons have staff in house or did consult people externally to check, however clearly their methods were not robust enough in the case of the 66.

 

As has also been said, would this extra time and possibly cost be worth it for a small proportion of livery/light/detail errors? Consumers will undoubtedly pick these up and discuss them more than the correct details - of which there are plenty - on this stunning model. If the full, final (from manufacturer's POV) livery graphics were released then modellers can view them at their leisure, however I feel this isn’t enough as I personally wouldn’t go through all with a fine tooth comb: it’s not the consumer's responsibility to do so. Having a relationship like this where the consumer provides feedback is absolutely a great way to identify errors, however it cannot be relied upon to illuminate all errors.

 

All this is only my own view, and with little industry understanding. I simply don’t want to see excellent models marred by (often simple) errors.

 

Jack.

[YesTor]

18 hours ago, pteandy1402 said:

All modifications are done at your own risk as it requires delicate and accurate cutting of circuit board tracks, adding extra wires and removal of most of the switches but To modify the lights to be prototypical you remove the plastic light shield on the 10mm square led circuit board cut the tracks that feed the headlights to isolate them from the markers join them together  then add a wire from each of the headlight circuits back to the main board so they are all independent of one and another markers x2, day headlight and night headlight and tail lights so running fro. Each light board you have a common positive and 4x negative function outputs

 

4 hours ago, pteandy1402 said:

Unless you have knowledge of circuitry and soldering skills i wouldnt reccomend it. I agree with pre grouping fan thay to get the correct lighting modes a  complete mainboard and the 2 lighting boards complete

 

I do pretty much follow the principle, but am slightly confused by some of the wording, which depending upon how the wording is interpreted could have quite opposite meanings...

 

cut the tracks that feed the headlights to isolate them from the markers join them together

 

Join what together exactly?  Join the tracks that feed the headlights?  Sorry, I am not wishing to sound rude or pedantic, but the wording as it is doesn't seem to translate very clearly?

 

A couple of photos would be far more useful perhaps?  A picture speaks a thousand words etc... 

 

thank you kindly...
Al

[Hattons Dave]

Hi guys,

 

Thank you again for the continued interest and discussion regarding the Class 66.  There have been a few more questions added over the weekend, which I have collected and answered below.

 

Where is the marker light fault located? And can this part be easily removed or replaced? 

The fault is on the small circuit boards under the cabs that have the LEDs on them.  It is not easy for the ‘ready-to-run’ modeller to exchange this part.

 

Is it possible for the customer to fix the issue themselves?

It is possible, as pteandy1402 has shown, but it is very intricate and not something that most customers would be able to achieve. Any customers who are not happy with their model can return it to be exchanged for an alternative item or to be fully refunded.

 

Will there be supplied necessary replacement parts at a later date? 

Unfortunately, as the parts are not easy to exchange, it is not something we can provide as a spare.

 

Does the issue of the marker lights affect yard mode as opposed to running lights for mainline running? 

As the marker lights are linked to the headlights, it is not possible to use ‘yard mode’ on the models that are affected by this fault, as only the top headlight will be shown. 

 

Who checks the models before production?

As with any of our exclusive projects, the models are checked at multiple stages before they reach production. We try as far as possible to also share details with customers and get their feedback at each stage, which we have done recently with the initial CADs for the Plasser Crane HERE. However, for this project we did not notice the error early enough. 

 

I hope that helps answer any queries but please let me know if I can help answer any further questions.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[YesTor]

5 hours ago, Jack374 said:

So my point in all of this is a question - would it make sense for manufacturers to ask modellers to comb over final livery specs, functionality and any other considerations before manufacture? I have absolutely no doubt that Hattons have staff in house or did consult people externally to check, however clearly their methods were not robust enough in the case of the 66.

 

Having a relationship like this where the consumer provides feedback is absolutely a great way to identify errors, however it cannot be relied upon to illuminate all errors.

 

Jack

 

The problem Jack, is that even when errors are highlighted they are very often ignored/disregarded.  A good example with the 66 being the logo on the EWS variants, which was highlighted by myself as being incorrect right at the first appearance of the very first painted sample, so it cannot be argued that there wasn't the time or means to implement a correction.  Whilst it is appreciated that many errors, or indeed perceived errors, can boil down to individual perception/opinion, it was very clear from the offset that the logo was wrong...  yet the incorrect text/font still made it onto the production batch on all EWS models, and is why I have avoided ordering any EWS liveried examples from this first batch.  Whether other livery glitches (Colas etc) were highlighted early on I have no idea, but...

 

Anyway, don't hear me wrong in all of the above - I'm not here on a Hattons-bashing spree - far from it - I have several models here from the pre-Christmas batch and hopefully more on the way, which when they are all correct and working as they should be are what I feel to be genuinely exceptional models, absolutely no question - (just no EWS examples, and now perhaps no 'bug-eyed' examples either - yet to be decided).  

 

Speaking from a layman's viewpoint, one cannot help but wonder - no matter how 'on form' anyone's QC team may or may not be - if attempting to release 37 variants, encompassing all liveries and all design variants and all of the inevitable livery and design idiosyncrasies within an entire locomotive class in one production hit, whilst very attractive on paper, was perhaps a little over-ambitious in reality?  

 

Let's hope that Hattons manage to resolve some of the problems for what at present sadly appear to be detracting from what is an otherwise stunning model.

 

cheers

Al

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by YesTor

[Pre Grouping fan]

7 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Find it hard to swallow that the issue is fixable and its not going to be done,if the manufacturer of the models has got it wrong one yould think they would want to fix the issue.

With the body colour break fault on the colas one and the lighting issue what next,will further batches be sorted now  that its been highlighted or is tough luck

I would hope further batches will be different but on this occasion it doesn't seem there's a lot that can be done. Depends what Hattons get from their factory as to what can be done. But as dave said a customer applied fix isn't an option as its a complex job. 

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

I would hope further batches will be different but on this occasion it doesn't seem there's a lot that can be done. Depends what Hattons get from their factory as to what can be done. But as dave said a customer applied fix isn't an option as its a complex job. 

To be fair, whether the fix is too complex or not is a customer decision. I trained as an electronics engineer, changing a circuit board or even the modifications discussed above do not concern me at all. 

Irrelevant for me as the large headlights are way too late for me. That said, so is my 66005 when it comes!

 

Roy

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

To be fair, whether the fix is too complex or not is a customer decision. I trained as an electronics engineer, changing a circuit board or even the modifications discussed above do not concern me at all. 

Irrelevant for me as the large headlights are way too late for me. That said, so is my 66005 when it comes!

 

Roy

 

Yes exactly. If I had one I wouldn't bat an eyelid about sorting it out, whilst not ideal these things happen.

[daz9284]

I wish I had noticed the marker light problem before as I have renumbered and renamed the 66621 to 66612 Forth Raider. I will contact hattons and see if I can keep the body and they send a replacement chassis once the problem with the circuitry has been resolved.

 

regards

Darryl

[Pete the Elaner]

45 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

For a Liverpool based firm perhaps thinking like Hornby Dublo would and get them fixed either at source or here,its there name and reputation here.I have spent a lifetime in engineering and would think they would want it right.

Hornby is perhaps a bad example. They would not have been so concerned with making the best possible in the first place.

In the past, they made a class 37 with 31 bogies then 47 bogies, continuing to produce it well after Lima released their much more accurate model.

The new class 91 is reported to have an 8 pin decoder socket, so they are clearly not too concerned with making the best possible at the target price point. The Bachmann 90 is around the same price & has many more lighting options, an included speaker & working pantograph. Hornby's 91 cannot have as many options with an 8 pin socket & we shall have to wait & see whether it matched the 90 in other aspects.

 

While it is true that engineers want to get everything working as well as possible, accountants have always been their enemy & somewhere along the line, economics must get involved or else Hattons 66 could easily cost 2-3 times that of Bachmann's.

Replacing circuit boards may well be the best technical solution to the lighting issue, but much would this cost? Would all customers be prepared to pay for it? If not, Hattons would have to absorb the cost. How long would it take for replacement boards to be designed, manufactured & installed?

 

Hattons have tried pushing standards forward. Their 66 is in a similar price range to Bachmann's, but they have given us more body detail options, space for a really good speaker, better haulage & more lighting options.

After the first batch, they have withheld others because they are not happy about something. They are trying not to commit too much information to us at this stage in order to keep their options open.

To infer that they simply can't be bothered is unfair & inaccurate.

[Hattons Dave]

Hi all,

 

Just wanted to clarify a couple of points regarding a couple of questions that have recently been coming up.

 

Will potential future batches have the noted issues resolved?

Just to confirm, we’re working with our vendors to determine a solution to the lighting issue on any potential future versions of the Large Headlight models.

 

In regards to livery errors, we produce new artwork for each model to be released so noted errors will be rectified for any potential future batches.

 

Can I return a chassis from a ‘Large Headlight’ model to be replaced if a solution to the lighting issue is found?

Unfortunately we cannot offer replacement chassis’ for models in this batch. If you would like to return an affected model then please contact our Helpdesk team who will be able to help and advise on next steps.

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[pteandy1402]

Hi dave if you have any of the affected colas 66s going cheap I'll repair them for myself

[The Black Hat]

To check - is the headlight issue only when you are working when in shunting / yard mode?

Reason why I am asking as if that I have a V4 speaker which could be fitted to an engine and thus if the yard mode is not going to be used, one of these engines would be fine to fit it to as then the main headlights will work as normal.

 

Thanks for help in advance.

 

[TomScrut]

Just now, The Black Hat said:

To check - is the headlight issue only when you are working when in shunting / yard mode?

Reason why I am asking as if that I have a V4 speaker which could be fitted to an engine and thus if the yard mode is not going to be used, one of these engines would be fine to fit it to as then the main headlights will work as normal.

 

Thanks for help in advance.

 

 

The markers with the normal driving lights aren't right, both lower lights should come on but on these only the one opposite the headlamp in question comes on

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

What im saying is you should not have to even if your Barnes Wallis,whether its in the body or chassis its not right and its brand new,they have retooled Biff but dont want to sort out this,this was the second coming as far as model diesels and is expensive considering the flee bay brigade want everything for nothing with 25% discount.Its getting like what have the Romans give us as theres more issues emerging.For a Liverpool based firm perhaps thinking like Hornby Dublo would and get them fixed either at source or here,its there name and reputation here.I have spent a lifetime in engineering and would think they would want it right.

 

I am sure they are far more annoyed about this issue than anybody else on the forum given our livelihoods are not linked to delivering these 66s. But they need to do what is viable financially.

 

The Biffa was probably retooled before any production parts were made. Completely different to this where there are hundreds/thousands of locos with the fault and sorting it out will be 2 new circuit boards as a guess and labour. And who would do the work? Hattons won't have people sat about in a shed waiting to do this work, the factory back in China probably won't be interested and once there is more shipping involved it adds cost anyway. Potentially a rework campaign like this can do serious damage to a business and it's ability to continue doing business, (for clarity this is absolutely not me saying I think Hattons are going to go bust over this, it is just adding perspective).

 

There are plenty of things in everyday I buy which aren't necessarily 100% what I want, either because of an error in design or cost cutting. Just because there is a "big real life" thing to copy it doesn't mean these things can't or won't happen and it also doesn't oblige the manufacturer to do anything about it other than accept returns.

 

I get why it's annoying, and it would be great if they were perfect, but they cannot necessarily move heaven and earth to correct the issue. You aren't obligated to buy it/keep it either, if you don't want it then just send it back or cancel it.

 

As mentioned in another post, at least Hattons are trying to push boundaries with lighting combinations etc. when Hornby have a more expensive (at RRP) loco which with its 8 pin socket cannot possibly offer the same functionality this does. I'm sure plenty of us have Bachmann 66s which 2 years ago would be similar price to this one with what is in my opinion bigger lighting issues, such as not having independent end lighting. I also believe they don't have marker lights at all?

[Colin_McLeod]

In the overall scheme of things these lighting issues are minor. Goodness I have locos that have no lights at all and it doesn't bother me. 

 

Hattons have pushed the boundaries with this class 66 and I have no doubt if they produce another loco they will push the boundaries even further in addition to having the lights wired correctly.

 

Personally I think Hattons are doing the right thing by offering refunds or replacement choice of loco.  It is better that they put efforts into their next project than spending valuable resources perfecting this particular batch of 66s.

 

Well done Hattons.