Ex-LSWR Drovers brake van - what colour?

[dibber25]

There was an LSWR-built six-wheel Goods, Guards and Drovers Brake van which ended up as BR number S54962 on the Callington and Seaton branches and was withdrawn 1959 from the Seaton branch. I have a Falcon Brass kit, but I'm unable to trace what colour it might have been in BR days. I suspect it was treated as a vac-braked goods vehicle and was bauxite but it would be nice to know - as it carried workmen as passengers - if it was painted in passenger livery - either all-over carmine or green? (CJL)

[Rivercider]

It is listed as being mentioned in an article in the Feb 1960 Railway Modeller, which is before my time,

 

cheers

[Dunsignalling]

The RM article is by A.E. West, so can be taken to be authoritative. He mentions seeing the vehicle in 1952 and again five years later.

 

" Paintwork - Prolonged exposure to the seaside winds and rain had paid havoc with the paintwork, but it appeared that the vehicle had borne the normal livery adopted by the Southern Railway for this class of stock, i.e. sides dark brown, ends and veranda red oxide, roof and handrails white, running gear black. However, when last seen the roof did not look white, and it may have received a coat of grey at some time. Lettering was in white. "

 

The text does not specify whether this was in 1952 or 1957 so the inference must be that it hadn't changed in the meantime.

 

The accompanying photograph, presumably taken by the author who was a prolific and able recorder of such subjects, perhaps indicates otherwise, though withdrawal came only two years later, suggesting that it may never have received any BR paint.

 

It shows the S prefix added to the number and no trace of SR lettering, but the bodywork looks rather paler than I would expect SR wagon brown to appear, suggesting that whatever paint remained was extremely faded and probably covered in a copious layer of dust. 

 

In monochrome there is no discernible difference in shade between the veranda end, cabin end and side.

 

I fear this may raise as many questions as it answers.

 

 

Regards

 

John (who also has one of these kits, unopened and awaiting construction)

Edited May 9, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[dibber25]

Thank you both. I've now discovered Volume one of An Illustrated History of SR Wagons on my bookshelf and this has a couple of pictures, one credited to A E West and said to be taken at Axminster in 1958. It may well be the same photograph. It shows the van from the verandah end and it looks very shabby indeed. The corner post and one plank appear to be replacements - or in any case they are painted in a much lighter colour. As you say, there is no discernible difference between the colour of the end and the side. The other picture shows the opposite end, at New Cross Gate in 1954. Seem that at that time it must still have had occasional workings up to London. I think you are right - it is still in very weathered SR livery, in which case I may take the liberty of giving it a 'repaint' in miniature. (CJL)

[Nearholmer]

New Cross was location of BR((S) wagon shop, so the van was probably there for overhaul, rather than traffic, reasons.

 

I’m. Not sure when the shop closed, but it was still doing overhaul and rebuilding in the early/mid 1980s.

[Dunsignalling]

Thank you both. I've now discovered Volume one of An Illustrated History of SR Wagons on my bookshelf and this has a couple of pictures, one credited to A E West and said to be taken at Axminster in 1958. It may well be the same photograph. It shows the van from the verandah end and it looks very shabby indeed. The corner post and one plank appear to be replacements - or in any case they are painted in a much lighter colour. As you say, there is no discernible difference between the colour of the end and the side. The other picture shows the opposite end, at New Cross Gate in 1954. Seem that at that time it must still have had occasional workings up to London. I think you are right - it is still in very weathered SR livery, in which case I may take the liberty of giving it a 'repaint' in miniature. (CJL)

The picture in the Modeller article is different - definitely taken at Seaton, but sadly undated.

 

For me, at least, the level of "grot" shown in the Axminster photo would be difficult to replicate without going OTT, so I'm inclining towards heavily faded SR but somewhat less decrepit when I eventually get to mine.

 

John

[dibber25]

The picture in the Modeller article is different - definitely taken at Seaton, but sadly undated.

 

For me, at least, the level of "grot" shown in the Axminster photo would be difficult to replicate without going OTT, so I'm inclining towards heavily faded SR but somewhat less decrepit when I eventually get to mine.

 

John

 

Yes, I'm not sure I could make a nicely-etched, neat, model look that bad! I may yet go for an entirely fictitious livery. I'll take pictures of it in primer in case I ever need them for publication! (CJL)

[kevinlms]

On 10/05/2018 at 03:42, Dunsignalling said:

The RM article is by A.E. West, so can be taken to be authoritative. He mentions seeing the vehicle in 1952 and again five years later.

 

" Paintwork - Prolonged exposure to the seaside winds and rain had paid havoc with the paintwork, but it appeared that the vehicle had borne the normal livery adopted by the Southern Railway for this class of stock, i.e. sides dark brown, ends and veranda red oxide, roof and handrails white, running gear black. However, when last seen the roof did not look white, and it may have received a coat of grey at some time. Lettering was in white. "

 

The text does not specify whether this was in 1952 or 1957 so the inference must be that it hadn't changed in the meantime.

 

The accompanying photograph, presumably taken by the author who was a prolific and able recorder of such subjects, perhaps indicates otherwise, though withdrawal came only two years later, suggesting that it may never have received any BR paint.

 

It shows the S prefix added to the number and no trace of SR lettering, but the bodywork looks rather paler than I would expect SR wagon brown to appear, suggesting that whatever paint remained was extremely faded and probably covered in a copious layer of dust. 

 

In monochrome there is no discernible difference in shade between the veranda end, cabin end and side.

 

I fear this may raise as many questions as it answers.

 

 

Regards

 

John (who also has one of these kits, unopened and awaiting construction)

Just came across this article in the RM for 1960 February. I suspect that the accompanying photo must be from 1952, as the text says about the 1957 sighting "Its exterior was certainly weather-worn and some boards were missing from one of the doors of the goods compartment".

 

No sign of any missing boards, so I assume this is a 1952 photo pre-damage - unless of course it's on the other side!

 

Edit to add.

 

Often the RM would have additional information appearing in the letters section in following issues. But on this occasion there is nothing, despite such an unusual prototype.

 

Further update

 

Author (A.E. West) states that he found out from Railway Modeller that this vehicle was built by the PD&SWJR. No idea which issue of RM this is in, my collection has the earliest date of 1957 & it's not in between these issues. Hope this reduces the effort to find the reference.

Edited February 1, 2020 by kevinlms

[Dunsignalling]

Why didn't I notice that?

[dibber25]

14 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Just came across this article in the RM for 1960 February. I suspect that the accompanying photo must be from 1952, as the text says about the 1957 sighting "Its exterior was certainly weather-worn and some boards were missing from one of the doors of the goods compartment".

 

No sign of any missing boards, so I assume this is a 1952 photo pre-damage - unless of course it's on the other side!

 

Edit to add.

 

Often the RM would have additional information appearing in the letters section in following issues. But on this occasion there is nothing, despite such an unusual prototype.

 

Further update

 

Author (A.E. West) states that he found out from Railway Modeller that this vehicle was built by the PD&SWJR. No idea which issue of RM this is in, my collection has the earliest date of 1957 & it's not in between these issues. Hope this reduces the effort to find the reference.

I've also read that it is incorrectly attributed to the PD&SWR and was actually an LSWR vehicle. The PD&SWJR connection seems to have originated from its frequent use on the Callington branch. Never did succeed in making a satisfactory model from that etched kit. (CJL)

Edited February 1, 2020 by dibber25
spelling mistake

[Dunsignalling]

27 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

I've also read that it is incorrectly attributed to the PD&SWR and was actually an LSWR vehicle. The PD&SWJR connection seems to have originated from its frequent use on the Callington branch. Never did succeed in making a satisfactory model from that etched kit. (CJL)

The Drovers' van did indeed have LSWR origins, and the PD&SWJR association arose exactly as you say.

 

From what I gather, this kit, in common with most from the Jidenco stable, is somewhat "challenging" and tends to require a fair bit of alteration/scratch-building to make a sensible go of it.

 

Perhaps fortunately, mine is still a fair way down the "to-do" list anyway....

 

John

[The Bigbee Line]

Do you have any pictures of the completed model?  I like the LSWR vans with the side doors.