Locomotion Models - updates and new coaching stock.

[Edwardian]

I think one thing we need to bear in mind in all of this debate is the brand name - National Collection In Miniature.  this implies surely that any models issued under that brand will reflect exactly what it says on the tin box, i.e. it will be a model of an item which is in the National Collection (of railway locos and stock).  It could conceivably be extended to include items in wider preservation ownership although really depends on how 'pure' Locomotion wishes to keep the NCIM brand.   Thus by implication if we follow that logic the NCIM cannot include models of items which are not in the National Collection or, possibly, are no in preservation elsewhere.  

 

And to my way of thinking it cannot logically include models of things which no longer exist unless of course someone somewhere decides it is to become 'just another' model railway brand (and somehow I can't really see that as likely).

 

I am speculating more broadly and am including items that manufacturers and commissioners might consider that complement items that Locomotion may commission, or, indeed, that complement any 'main catalogue' versions of exclusives.

 

If we applied your criteria strictly, for instance, the only vehicle that Locomotion could produce to go with the Single, which seems to be the primary thrust of this topic, is the 6-Wheel Luggage brake that Steam Southport has just linked to.  Not much of a train. 

 

Hornby produced a version of its M7 in Drummond livery for the NRM.  There is one LSWR coach (sat behind the M7) at York, so far as I know.  Would it be legitimate for Locomotion to commission a LSWR rake of coaches, or just this one?

 

Boxhill is the NRM Terrier.  It looks, to me, pretty close to its as-built condition, but I doubt it would be 100% so, should NRM introduce Stroudley 4-wheelers to go with it?  I don't know that there is even one of these in the National Collection. 

 

What goes with 'as preserved' models anyway, especially if they don't run or haven't done so for years?

 

What about other manufacturers or commissioners producing complementary stock, including stock that supports main-catalogue versions of Locomotion items?

 

There is a GN Atlantic, preserved in GN livery, but would you rule out the coaches that these locos hauled when wearing GN livery because they no longer exist?  Even if not commissioned by Locomotion, any such release would clearly have relevance to Locomotion's model.

 

Clearly there is more than just Locomotion in the equation.  The Terrier is a RAILS-Dapol- NRM venture, with only one version being specific to the National Collection, so it is hard to view this question restrictively in terms of what Locomotion might commission. For example, what if RAILS were to commission an umber A1 of the c.1906-1914 period.  If it did, then it would need a balloon trailer.  So, indirectly, that would be a complementary product stemming from a National Collection exclusive.

[locoholic]

Only the most pedantic would complain if Locomotion Models produced some RTR GNR coaches to run behind their Stirling Single.

 

There are no pedants on RMWeb, are there....?

[Compound2632]

Only the most pedantic would complain if Locomotion Models produced some RTR GNR coaches to run behind their Stirling Single.

 

There are no pedants on RMWeb, are there....?

 

In this instance, the pedants wouldn't be the ones complaining...

[Tim Hall]

Only the most pedantic would complain if Locomotion Models produced some RTR GNR coaches to run behind their Stirling Single.

 

There are no pedants on RMWeb, are there....?

 

Is pedant exactly the right word?

[Compound2632]

Is pedant exactly the right word?

 

Now that's just being...

 

The debate has focused on carriages. For a goods engine, the key additional item is an appropriate goods brake van - perhaps less fraught with difficulty, although Oxford's experience producing a van to go with the Dean Goods might suggest otherwise. 

 

I have an NRM Bachmann Compound. This represents No. 1000 as restored and hence, as running on railtours in the 1950s/60s. So I have no problem putting blood and custard LMS PIII (Stanier) or early BR (MkI) carriages behind it!

[No Decorum]

I think one thing we need to bear in mind in all of this debate is the brand name - National Collection In Miniature.  this implies surely that any models issued under that brand will reflect exactly what it says on the tin box, i.e. it will be a model of an item which is in the National Collection (of railway locos and stock).  It could conceivably be extended to include items in wider preservation ownership although really depends on how 'pure' Locomotion wishes to keep the NCIM brand.   Thus by implication if we follow that logic the NCIM cannot include models of items which are not in the National Collection or, possibly, are no in preservation elsewhere.  

 

And to my way of thinking it cannot logically include models of things which no longer exist unless of course someone somewhere decides it is to become 'just another' model railway brand (and somehow I can't really see that as likely).

 

It’s simple to my simple mind. NCIM for a product which is part of the national collection. NRMR (re-creations) or something similar for items which are not. It is a most excellent idea to preserve what has survived. Perhaps it is also a good idea to produce models of what has not, especially if such items have historical significance.

[Ozexpatriate]

- GWR Toplights - I would not suggest this as a Locomotion commission, but I have no doubt these would sell.  There will be issues of lack of commonality that make it a difficult proposition for a manufacturer, even bogies and underframe trussing varied.  But, they are a useful coach as they were a staple of mainline express services from the 1900s to the 1950s.  Moreover, pretty though those matching sets of the splendid Hornby Colletts are, such sights were rare. Unlike the contemporary Maunsells, which typically ran in sets, a GW or WR train should be a mix of coach styles, including plenty of panelled toplights, and Colletts, in order to be prototypical.

It's off topic in the context of this thread - we both agreed that the toplights aren't really suitable for Locomotions' "National Collection in Miniature" - but your comment makes me wonder if, rather than producing a set of matching GWR Chuchward toplight coaches, a supplier might be encouraged to make an occasional 'one off' toplight coach.

 

Given that the GWR was inclined to run whatever coaches were available, rather than matchy matchy sets, it's not implausible that people would buy one or two at a time and use them to mix up rakes of coaches emulating, to some extent, what the GWR did.

 

The overhead to produce an individual coach might be something that could be conceivably be crowdfunded as well - much more so than a whole set.

 

If the first one is successful, then sometime later perhaps a second one could be attempted.

 

Of course everyone will argue about which one should be done but I suspect there are examples, where the changes over time were manageable, that could produce a range of liveries suitable for multiple periods.

 

The toplights seem to comport with the "how do you eat an elephant?" problem. The answer of "one bite at a time" might just work.

 

My apologies for being

Edited June 28, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[Ozexpatriate]

The debate has focused on carriages. For a goods engine, the key additional item is an appropriate goods brake van - perhaps less fraught with difficulty, although Oxford's experience producing a van to go with the Dean Goods might suggest otherwise. 

This is a notion that has appealed to me for a long time. An awful lot of goods engines are produced RTR without suitable RTR brake vans ever materializing. This is probably mostly an issue for pre-grouping liveries.

 

For reasons nicely articulated by Mike earlier, I don't think this is something Locomotion needs to focus on. It is an opportunity for the retail commissioners though. At least one is being attempted.  

Edited June 28, 2018 by Ozexpatriate

[Steamport Southport]

I would prefer that the NRM concentrated on looking after it's exhibits rather than turn into a manufacturer of stock. Don't forget they are a bit financially precarious at the moment.

 

Yes, occasional commissions of things that are in it's collection is nice. I've even bought a handful myself, but for them to start producing rolling stock that aren't even relevant to the NRM is a bit of a daft idea.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[durham light infantry]

I would prefer that the NRM concentrated on looking after it's exhibits rather than turn into a manufacturer of stock. Don't forget they are a bit financially precarious at the moment.

 

Yes, occasional commissions of things that are in it's collection is nice. I've even bought a handful myself, but for them to start producing rolling stock that aren't even relevant to the NRM is a bit of a daft idea.

 

 

 

 

Jason

It is because of finance that Locomotion models exists. The grant from the Department for Culture and Heritage which funds the NRM has effectively been decreasing since 2010, Locomotion models is a funding stream outside of that remit.

 

All of the (unpopular to those on rmweb) decisions/rebranding/restructuring are there to to wholly accede to to the brief of the funding department. All of this sniping at people who are merely trying to do their job in increasingly straitened circumstances is getting beyond tiresome.

[JSpencer]

I am always surprised that you can visit the NRM free of charge.

 

Museums seem to be either:

1/ charge a fortune for a ticket (cir £20 per person) which when a family of 4 quickly adds up

2/ Free of charge

 

I guess there are some rules that you are either one or the other. But if the Dept of Heritage and Culture is decreasing funds, I would have no problem paying a £10 entry fee.

185000 visitors a year equates to £1.85 M though granted some will drop out, but will still be more than these commissions could ever hope to achieve.

[The Stationmaster]

I would prefer that the NRM concentrated on looking after it's exhibits rather than turn into a manufacturer of stock. Don't forget they are a bit financially precarious at the moment.

 

Yes, occasional commissions of things that are in it's collection is nice. I've even bought a handful myself, but for them to start producing rolling stock that aren't even relevant to the NRM is a bit of a daft idea.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

I'm not entirely with you there.  NCIM models are subject to being considered through a proper business case process before being authorised for development and that has to show a positive financial return for the museum in order to receive approval.  The aim is very clearly to provide a revenue stream to the museum to assist in continuing to allow it to operate as it currently.  The alternative to NCIM models would be other ways of raising revenue to support the museum so why not have something which generates revenue, helps maintain interest in the museum and its collection, and gives railway modellers and collectors somewhere to spend their money in a way which they can see on their layout or in a display case?

 

Quite agree about them staying on the NCIM theme as I've already said and perhaps apart from some coaches to go with the Stirling Single they have more than enough subjects to carry on with. Equally no reason why they shouldn't sell a wider range of models, including some produced as 'exclusives' for them (but also sold elsewhere with differeent liveries or running numbers) if it is financially advantageous to the museum. 

[No Decorum]

I am always surprised that you can visit the NRM free of charge.

 

Museums seem to be either:

1/ charge a fortune for a ticket (cir £20 per person) which when a family of 4 quickly adds up

2/ Free of charge

 

I guess there are some rules that you are either one or the other. But if the Dept of Heritage and Culture is decreasing funds, I would have no problem paying a £10 entry fee.

185000 visitors a year equates to £1.85 M though granted some will drop out, but will still be more than these commissions could ever hope to achieve.

 

Every little helps. One could argue that producing models of the national collection is a worthy end in itself. If it makes a little to add to NRM funds, so much the better. Self-funding museums are expensive; perhaps a relatively small charge such as you suggest might not be objectionable. However, free entry to national museums is a vote winner.

[Revolution Mike]

I am always surprised that you can visit the NRM free of charge.

 

Museums seem to be either:

1/ charge a fortune for a ticket (cir £20 per person) which when a family of 4 quickly adds up

2/ Free of charge

 

I guess there are some rules that you are either one or the other. But if the Dept of Heritage and Culture is decreasing funds, I would have no problem paying a £10 entry fee.

185000 visitors a year equates to £1.85 M though granted some will drop out, but will still be more than these commissions could ever hope to achieve.

 

There are significant tax advantages to offering free admission related to a VAT refund scheme open to museums and galleries.  The quid pro quo for offering museums VAT refunds (on non-business activities which they couldn't previously reclaim VAT on) was that they offered free entry.

 

Cheers, Mike

[adb968008]

There you go.

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=859

 

 

Make that as an exclusive for the NRM and let someone like Rails or Rapido make the others to complete the set.

 

 

 

Jason

Is that lining around the beading ?

 

***Runs for cover.

[GNR Dave]

Nah !  It's a trick of the light.  

[Edwardian]

GN coach lining!

[The Black Hat]

While people have mentioned revenue and how Locomotion Models is now, I think its clear that the idea was always going to evolve.

 

No one really complained when Locomotion or the NRM ever sold standard range items at their museums to boost sales and get income. They have been doing this for some time. If anything the idea of the National Collection in Miniture is the flagship of the stores showcase, but the collection has a finite amount of engines. Even of these not all of them are going to be a viable model that can be released to market and be profitable.

 

So Locomotion models is always going to venture out to add models that can support those within its flagship range of the NCiM. It makes sense that they can be supportive of the models that they have made to date, or would be novel and selective enough to support the NCiM by being niche and/or of historical significance to merit inclusion in their catalogue.

 

As a result, rather than some GNR coaches..

 

Id recommend this:

 

[Steamport Southport]

It is because of finance that Locomotion models exists. The grant from the Department for Culture and Heritage which funds the NRM has effectively been decreasing since 2010, Locomotion models is a funding stream outside of that remit.

 

All of the (unpopular to those on rmweb) decisions/rebranding/restructuring are there to to wholly accede to to the brief of the funding department. All of this sniping at people who are merely trying to do their job in increasingly straitened circumstances is getting beyond tiresome.

 

 

Did you even read what I posted and the context it was posted? 

 

 

My post was about people asking Locomotion Models to make models that are totally irrelevant to the NRM.

 

 

So the NRM are meant to put hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money into producing models of things like LBSCR, LSWR carriages and LNER streamlined trains just so a few modellers can have something to put behind their model locomotives. Correct me if I'm wrong that is a significant amount of investment that shouldn't be being used speculatively, on things that might not even sell.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

While people have mentioned revenue and how Locomotion Models is now, I think its clear that the idea was always going to evolve.

 

No one really complained when Locomotion or the NRM ever sold standard range items at their museums to boost sales and get income. They have been doing this for some time. If anything the idea of the National Collection in Miniture is the flagship of the stores showcase, but the collection has a finite amount of engines. Even of these not all of them are going to be a viable model that can be released to market and be profitable.

 

 

 

Yes. But they are standard items which doesn't need investment apart from the cost of buying them in. All the research and tooling costs are covered.

 

What if you make 5,000 GNR six wheel carriages (five types of 1000 each) and sell 200 hundred? As you've misjudged the market and all the modellers who said they would buy them didn't. That's a significant loss.

 

Now a manufacturer could possibly take the financial hit, but should a charity or museum take that risk?

 

All I'm saying is be careful.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Black Hat]

It is linked to risk, but essentially the Locomotion Models is a company wholly owned by the Science Museum and industry group. It can invest in getting products made and bringing them to market, so long as the model makes a profit overall which is then given to the museum. So long as that's the case, then I think its clearly a good idea. The model sector is one where the museum can move into as it appeals to an area of the visitors that its attracts. There are not many other ways that the museum can move into, to make good sales that then bring a return, even more so on areas that it can claim exclusivity.

 

Yes some ideas, like the GNR 6 wheelers might be closer to a margin that some realise, but other be spoke items such as the S&D/NER Inspection Saloon shown above, or NER matchboard or clerestory stock, would both be good additions to the general move that the market is making towards NER/NE Region stock as well as Locomotion finally producing a model from an area that its actually from.

 

If not them, then there are others, such as brake vans, royal coaches, push-pull sets, and an NER Autocar that would be welcome additions that would match the possibility of GNR stock in an area that doesn't poll as strong as others.

 

Still, if the demand for stock is good and strong for those coaches then why shouldn't locomotion try to capitalise on the traction its Sterling Single has generated. The good news is that theres other things it can and could go for too, but if a rail-gun released in a general range is an option for one, then maybe more stands a chance of being made than we think after all..

 

[adb968008]

 if a rail-gun released in a general range is an option for one, then maybe more stands a chance of being made than we think after all..

 

 

The rail gun (presume you mean Oxfords) might have a wider interest than just railway modellers... war gamers for instance.

 

The hobby is full of odd ball moments in history... Ive got a Lima's Molten Metal wagon somewhere.

 

If doing one off coaches I'd be careful as for most people I suspect the dynanometer car will be shelf ware in a few months.

Theres plenty of coaches that worked in odd ball formations on railtours in the 1980s which could fit well with modellers and survive the "play once then forgotten" tag of many.

 

For example I recall 46229 with LNWR coaches on occasions.

But surely Rocket and it's coaches is over due ?

Edited July 2, 2018 by adb968008

[adb968008]

GN coach lining!

nah, i can see reflections.

[Synch]

I don't think we need more specialist rolling stock, while the ex S&D saloon is a lovely vehicle it's rather limited, and the idea of a pack of GNR six wheelers is much more useful in my mind.

[adb968008]

Coaches for the Stirling Single would be quite delightful.

 

As much as I would dearly love to see someone brave enough to take on the GWR toplights - I don't think they are a suitable subject for Locomotion.

 

More relevant to me for the "National Collection in Miniature" concept (and the partnership with Rails of Sheffield) is a different subject.

May I present the LNER Coronation train as my suggestion for the "National Collection in Miniature"?

 

• It's iconic
• It's historic
• It makes for perfect presentation box packaging
• Even though the museum is "National" it is on the east coast main line where the Coronation ran
• It's serendipitous (given Mallard and the LNER Dynamometer car are in the collection)
• Given the hint of cooperation with Rails of Sheffield surely a "126mph record" boxed set containing coaches (along with two items in the museum) is a obvious museum sale item

Before you say it's too expensive, a sensibly condensed four car set plus observation car is not out of bounds. People regularly purchase five coaches when offered by the likes of Hornby, Whether the full rake could be developed in a cost effective way is a reasonable question but US manufacturers have been doing this for years.

A West Riding set could be offered.

The observation car would sell well individually.

 

I don't think 'work a day' coaches are the right choice for Locomotion's foray into coaches. There has to be some cachet to attract impulse buying. It needs to be something special people would not necessarily purchase for their primary layout.

For those that really want this set, why not buy the Golden Age set, brass, OO scale painted and ready to run ?

 

I doubt a version in plastic would be that much cheaper, and probably not as nice either.

Edited July 16, 2018 by adb968008