A Jubilee for the Jubilee?

[Nick Mitchell]

On 27/08/2019 at 21:28, Nick Mitchell said:

Something I don't think I will be able to tackle is the filled-in area under the smokebox door. It ought the be further recessed to the saddle, but I will have to live with it. Maybe a pile of ash under the smokebox door will be able to disguise it. 

 

OK, so I'm replying to myself here, but it is actually an encounter with Simon Grand and Tim Watson after the 2mm AGM yesterday that this is really a response to!

 

Simon casually dropped into the conversation his surprise that I could live with the aforementioned unsightly lump under the smokebox door. Well, of course, as soon as he's said it, I realised that I can't - but what to do about it?

It was while I was blanching at the suggestion of cutting the whole front end off(!!!) that Tim chipped in with inspirational tales of how he'd once made a Midland compound out of a PECO Jubilee back in the days when the only options for making anything were to scratch-build or convert a Jubilee. I suspect there wasn't much Jubilee left by the time Tim had finished with his.

Anyway, I was left feeling that if you can turn a PECO body into anything, the very least I ought to attempt would be to turn this one into something that looks like a Jubilee.

 

I didn't follow Simon's radical solution, but with a few carefully aimed holes made with a 0.8mm drill, followed by some carving and filing, the offending lump was gone. I've filled in the gap with 0.010" plastic card, and it now has a proper "chin". I've also filled in the gaps between the separate smokebox saddles to represent the later single piece type that all the Jubilees had by the late 40s. I may or may not attempt to add the ribs along the sides and front of the saddle. Better to have them missing altogether than end up with ones either overscale or the wrong shape....

 

Thank you Simon for your timely intervention. It looks a million times better already:

 

[JohnBS]

Nick,

Thread hijack.

Here's one I made earlier (over 30 years ago but still a runner!). You can tell it was a Jubilee by the mound of coal in the tender.

John

 

[Lacathedrale]

If anyone has watched lord of the rings, I thought of this:

 

 

 

(just a random screenshot, I think my favourite is earlier when the valve gear washers are being removed at 20x zoom and a ginormous thumb comes into the frame)

[Nick Mitchell]

It has been over a year since I posted any progress with my Jubilee body on this thread, having been side-tracked with other projects.

A couple of weeks ago on a whim I fitted some wire handrails to replace the moulded on ones I had scraped off last year. These are made of 10 thou steel, with Association etched handrail knobs.

 

I thought I would take a photo comparing where I was up to in transforming the PECO body with two current-generation Farish bodies.

In the photo below, the red Jubilee is a long firebox body, and the green one a short firebox body.

The PECO version was something of a hybrid - essentially a short firebox, but with dome and top-feed positioned as if it had a long firebox... as well as having a few other anomalies such as the whistle in the wrong place, too few washout plugs on the right hand side of the firebox, and other plugs missing altogether.

 

 

I'm still impressed by how well the PECO body still stands up in general terms considering its antiquity. The fine-ness of the cab roof with those rivets (assuming they are in the right place!) is easily as good as the Farish version, although the rivets on the smokebox are much less fine. Interestingly, both generations of model have the same fault where the rivets seem to disappear at the top of the smokebox.

 

Anyway, I was admiring how much finer the etched handrail knobs look than the chunky plastic ones on the Farish models, and thinking how I would have to replace those ones, when I realised I'd made a silly mistake. I have positioned the handrail knobs where they were originally moulded without checking if those positions were correct. The one nearest the dome looks too far forward - it is on the line of the boiler band. I guess they're going to have to come off again and get adjusted.

 

At the same time as i made the handrails, I also made a replacement reverser reach rod from nickel silver.

 

 

Continuing the comparison, I took the photo below of the front ends side by side,

It is striking how much lower the PECO version sits on its replacement chassis.

Originally there were rivets all around the smokebox ring, and I have carved most of them away. Those that remain are not in the correct zig-zag pattern, but give an impression. I suspect there may be spurious rivets on the footplate which will need replacing as well.

Having removed the "lump under the chin", the gap now looks a bit on the large size, but it is better than it was.

I think the Farish chimney captures the shape better from this angle, but one thing that is definitely wrong on the Farish front end  is the shape of the cut-outs in the corners of the buffer beam.

 

 

Once I have re-worked the handrails, the list of detailing jobs before I can start worrying about painting it isn't that long. I'm fairly confident that when I'm finished with it, it won't look "wrong" or un-refined at the side of a finescaled Farish loco.

[Sithlord75]

I would have thought with a 191 examples, the rivets would be variable - as maybe handrail knobs.  And then there is the lifetime of changes...   Mind you, once you pick a number, and livery, it starts to narrow the possibilities!

 

I should be brave and start on mine - I'll see what bits I still need to get.

[65179]

Ceylon is looking good Nick.  There are certainly some extra rivets on the Peco model on the curved bit of the running plate. That pattern of one row of 3 across the front on each side above the steps as shown on your Farish example is fairly consistent across the class. 

 

That nice Mr Hunt's replacement steps are really useful for allowing the easy correction of the shape of the Farish buffer beam.

 

Is 5682 going to become 45670?

 

Simon

[65179]

Please excuse the quality of my scribbles, but for anyone not using the various cylinder valve chest castings from the Association Black 5 kit like Nick has done,  here are some dimensions taken from Bahamas a few years ago:

Dimensions for the front buffers are also given. Please excuse the random mixture of inches, mm and cm! I can't remember what the 59cm measurement disappearing off the right edge of the paper is. Possibly a dimension relating to the crosshead guide.

 

Simon

[Nick Mitchell]

6 hours ago, 65179 said:

Ceylon is looking good Nick.  There are certainly some extra rivets on the Peco model on the curved bit of the running plate. That pattern of one row of 3 across the front on each side above the steps as shown on your Farish example is fairly consistent across the class. 

There are some photos of Jubilees early in their lives that clearly show at least some of the extra rivets that the PECO model has - so they haven't simply made them up. But I have now found a pre-war photo of 5604 confirming it did have the row of 3 pattern as you suggest at least by the time I am interested in. Never thought I would descend to rivet counting!

 

6 hours ago, 65179 said:

That nice Mr Hunt's replacement steps are really useful for allowing the easy correction of the shape of the Farish buffer beam.

I have a set for each of my Jubilees ready and waiting...

 

6 hours ago, 65179 said:

Is 5682 going to become 45670?

I haven't thought that far ahead. What is the significance of that particular loco? (I feel like I ought to know, but am being slow on the uptake)

[65179]

13 minutes ago, Nick Mitchell said:

There are some photos of Jubilees early in their lives that clearly show at least some of the extra rivets that the PECO model has - so they haven't simply made them up. But I have now found a pre-war photo of 5604 confirming it did have the row of 3 pattern as you suggest at least by the time I am interested in. Never thought I would descend to rivet counting!

 

It is your destiny...

 

The one shot I have of the front of 45604 in interesting green also shows that rivet pattern.

 

45670 Howard of Effingham was the last red'un; making it into 1951 still in crimson lake.

 

Simon

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

I haven't thought that far ahead. What is the significance of that particular loco? (I feel like I ought to know, but am being slow on the uptake)

45670 was New Zealand.

 

Jim

[65179]

7 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

45670 was New Zealand.

 

Jim

 

That was 45570 Jim.  This is the one I was thinking of:

 

Shown here not long after acquiring BR green livery.

 

Simon

[Nick Mitchell]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

45670 Howard of Effingham was the last red'un; making it into 1951 still in crimson lake.

I like your thinking. The only fly in the ointment is that 45670 needs a riveted tender, and the model of 5682 has a flush one.

This model was an impulse purchase, second hand at a show a couple of years ago. It wasn't part of the master plan, but something akin to love at first sight.

The livery sold it to me, but before I saw it I hadn't realised Farish had done long firebox tooling as well as short firebox.

 

The original plan was to make my other PECO Jubilee a red one, probably 5623 Palestine with a Stanier 3,500 gal. tender.

I'd also like one with a Fowler riveted tender - there's a nice picture in a colour album I have of 5740 Munster with one of these in green, with a small lion... but that loco is another long firebox example.

 

The only solution I can think of is to have even more Jubilees!

[65179]

Try the Bachmann service department or BR Lines to see if they have a tender body for 5664 (372-480)?  That issue had a rivetted tender.

 

Simon

[Coal Tank]

Just out of interest Nick, how many jubilees do you intend to do 

John

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

That was 45570 Jim.  This is the one I was thinking of:

OOps!  Sorry!  I mis-read my elderly ABC Combined Volume.     Virus strikes again! (C-nile one).

 

Jim

[Nick Mitchell]

1 hour ago, Coal Tank said:

Just out of interest Nick, how many jubilees do you intend to do 

John

Too many! (Sorry, Simon...)

If I live long enough to build everything in my gloat box, there may eventually be four. I have two PECO bodies, and two Farish - though I don't have wheels or other parts for all of them.

There is no layout planned to accommodate them all (or, for that matter, several of the other loco projects I have on my list) but I seem to like building steam engines with Walschaerts valve gear.

Apart from them being a really nice looking loco (in my opinion) I have an affinity with the class. 5690 Leander was the first standard gauge steam loco I drove back in 2005 (not long after I had joined the 2mm Scale Association as it happens) when I had a bit more hair...

[65179]

Following starting a discussion about Silvertown lubricators (I need to get out more!) over on Wright Writes, I went hunting for Geoff Jones's step by step guide to making them in 2mm scale. It can be found here:

 

 

Note his comments about the orientation of the lubricator. On the Jubilee the single lubricators each side of the boiler are the same way round as on the Black 5. So if you follow Geoff's instructions for a Jubilee put the handles on the opposite end (what Geoff calls the round end) unless you are Nick in which case you need handles front and back...

 

Simon

 

 

[2mm Andy]

On 11/11/2020 at 09:02, 65179 said:

Following starting a discussion about Silvertown lubricators (I need to get out more!) over on Wright Writes, I went hunting for Geoff Jones's step by step guide to making them in 2mm scale. It can be found here.

 

Note his comments about the orientation of the lubricator. On the Jubilee the single lubricators each side of the boiler are the same way round as on the Black 5. So if you follow Geoff's instructions for a Jubilee put the handles on the opposite end (what Geoff calls the round end) unless you are Nick in which case you need handles front and back...

 

Simon

 

 

 

Thanks Simon - if I ever manage to get anywhere with my Jubilee then that will come in very handy.

 

Sad to note that Geoff Jones passed away earlier this week after a long illness. He was a very skilled modeller (as evidenced by the contents of his Flickr albums) and an all-round nice chap.

 

Andy

[65179]

1 minute ago, 2mm Andy said:

 

Thanks Simon - if I ever manage to get anywhere with my Jubilee then that will come in very handy.

 

Sad to note that Geoff Jones passed away earlier this week after a long illness. He was a very skilled modeller (as evidenced by the contents of his Flickr albums) and an all-round nice chap.

 

Andy

 

His contribution in terms of his ingenious tools and simple jigs alone was considerable.  Sad news indeed.

 

It's not too late to do a Jubilee for the belated Jubilee celebrations.

 

Simon

[65179]

With Nick off being a goblin, here is some entry level 2mm madness:

Whilst doing my best to resist one of those new Farish 8Fs I can't afford, I started looking at some spare Black 5 valve chest/valve spindle crosshead guides (like those fitted to Nick's Jubilee) to see if a little more detail could be added to Bob Jones's lovely castings. 

 

The crosshead guides come in two forms, cast and fabricated.

 

To make the cast type (bottom 2) as used on the Jubilees, earlier B5s and at least the 8F I'm looking to build, I secured a casting in the vice, cut two vertical slots for 0.3mm wire ( something smaller would look better, but I'd nothing to hand) with a slotting file (see Tim Watson's Valour build for recommendations). I then marked two points with a centrepunch between the slots. These were used to drill two holes which were then merged with a pre-broken cutting broach. Wires were then soldered in and trimmed to length. I then dressed the support between chest and guide with a triangular file to try and replicate the shape of the real casting a little more closely.

 

The fabricated type (top 2) as fitted to later Black 5s, e.g. preserved 44932, was attempted slightly differently. I created the vertical slots with the file again doing as far as I dared. Then, instead of drilling holes.  I cut a slot along the length of the guide with a piercing saw and opened this up slightly with a narrow file. I then took a little off the top of the guide to try and getter the lighter weight look of the fabricated type. 0.3mm wires (pre-filed to a D shape) were soldered in to represent the vertical bobbins and trimmed to length. These don't sit as deep as intended and smaller diameter wire would give a more authentic look. 

 

However although very crude I was happy with the result until I looked again at the real thing. I'd ignored the bottom of the casting and had my bolts/bobbins going the full depth of the guide. Doh!

 

Out with the slotting file again to cut off the bottom of the vertical wires. Then tidying up with a bigger (small) file gave these (fabricated type at bottom):

Not great modelling, but the various bumps should catch the light in the right way once painted and positioned.

 

Simon

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by 65179

[Nick Mitchell]

I really like what you've done there, Simon. I had been thinking how plain the castings looked, and will be pinching your ideas for my "bunch of fives".

 

I used a "fabricated" approach to these on my Nigel Hunt Princess. I took the front of the etched "boxes" which Nigel supplies, and built up similar detail using wire.

If I had allowed myself to use my lathe for the Jubilee, and made bespoke valves rather than using the Black 5 castings, I would have done something similar.

 

Apologies for the out of focus photo, but here are the guides in their initial form. The bottom horizontal wire was squashed flat to lie next to the bottom edge of the etched piece. The vertical wires were soldered on, and then a slot sawn across them for the upper horizontal wire.

The wires were all left very long and held in position on a piece of paper with Pritt stick while the soldering took place.

 

 

For installing on the loco, the top wire was bent up and round the top of the valve spindle gland. (This is functional, and is made from 0.8mm o.d. tube embedded in the valve end cover - it protrudes about a mm...) The bottom wire was bent at a right angle and passes below the gland. The gap between them was flooded with solder.

 

 

If you're interested in what's behind the valve spindle guide, the combination levers are "double jointed" at the top, with a valve spindle made from 0.45mm brass which is a good running fit in the gland tube. The end was squashed flat and an etched washer soldered on, then drilled through 0.3mm to take the pivot pin. The end of the radius rod pivots on the top pin.

 

In the photo below, you can see my first attempt. Subsequently I replaced the union link and combination lever with ones from the Black 5 kit (as seen in the photo above.) I can't remember why, but I think I after staring at it for far too long, I worked out the union link shouldn't be fluted. The combination lever may have disintegrated. The Black 5 combination lever has thinner etched fluting, which enabled me to thin the edges down a bit more whilst maintaining the structural integrity. Below you can see that it is pretty much all flute, with no edge left after I was too enthusiastic with the file.

 

Speaking of filing - the little ends of the conn. rods are joined to the cross-head with a flanged crank-pin. The flange was reduced in diameter, and using a gorgeous #6-cut swiss file I was able to file a hexagon on to the stub of the short end of the pin to represent the fixing nut. If anyone is looking for the split-pin across the front of the nut, they will be disappointed!

 

 

 

The other end of the radius rod is pivoted to the bottom of the expansion link, which puts the loco in full forward gear. No reversing the gear here, I'm afraid...

In the photo below, showing the joint, the rear end of the radius rod (designed to attach to the lifting arm) still needs to be cut off.

 

 

In the view below, with the loco much more complete, I have tried to match up the positioning of two-part reverser reach rod above the footplate to the valve gear below:

 

 

And the result of all this - well, with the engine in motion you can barely see any movement of the valve spindle!

Here's a short video to prove it:

 

 

 

[65179]

Nicely done Nick. My attempts are crude by comparison, but for a short evening's work for 4, and particularly given that they will be mucky on the final locos,  I'm happy that they give the right impression. There's plenty of scope to get the flanges where the two parts of the casting are joined on the cast type better represented. You are on your own with working valve spindles!

 

Simon 

[CF MRC]

Proper job, Nick!

 

Tim

[Nick Mitchell]

Have Bachmann been reading this thread?

I've just seen their announcement today that 45604 Ceylon in experimental green is to join the OO Branch Line range.

I really hope they don't release an N gauge version - not until I've painted mine at least.

Below is a screen grab from the announcement video - I think the green looks a bit dark...