A Jubilee for the Jubilee?

[Lacathedrale]

Really lovely, Nick! I have had a pot of power flux in my toolbox for ages and so decided to give it a go based on your recommendation - maybe in just spoilt with Carr's green - but after i came back to a joint that was done using it, it had turned green and furry! This was on some peco track rather than brass or nickel silver kits however. Any ideas? Seems like a bit of a faff to have to wash the kit each point during construction?

 

My trespa sample arrived and seems to be working great. It is indeed 9cm square and 4mm thick.

[Nick Mitchell]

I have had a pot of power flux in my toolbox for ages and so decided to give it a go based on your recommendation - maybe in just spoilt with Carr's green - but after i came back to a joint that was done using it, it had turned green and furry! This was on some peco track rather than brass or nickel silver kits however. Any ideas? Seems like a bit of a faff to have to wash the kit each point during construction?

 

Hi William,

I believe Peco rail is nickel silver, so I would expect it to turn green in such circumstances.

When it comes to fluxes, it is really a case of finding something that works for you. Powerflow seems to divide people into those who swear by it and those who swear at it... but even Green Label leaves a corrosive residue which should be washed off.

Personally, I don't find cleaning as I go along a faff - in fact it is a positive advantage. Apart from the fact that clean metal is easier to solder whatever the flux, giving the model a scrub with an old toothbrush is likely to expose any poorly made joints... I'd prefer to know sooner rather than later if a joint was going to fail.

If I have to make a joint that will be difficult or impossible to clean (such as on previously installed trackwork) then I would make sure the metal was thoroughly mechanically cleaned  (e.g. with a scratch brush) immediately before soldering, and if necessary use a non-corrosive flux such as rosin.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Nick Mitchell

[Lacathedrale]

Thanks Nick, Maybe I just need to be more authoritative with my soldering - I always feel like I'm half as breath away from crushing the etches between my fingers, let alone scrubbing with a toothbrush. Time to put on my big-boy pants and get it done, I guess! 

[Kylestrome]

I agree with Nick on the use of Powerflow flux. It's by far the best flux that I've used but it really does need to be thoroughly cleaned off after every soldering session. That is why I would not use it in any situation where I can't wash the soldered joint, such as trackwork fixed to a baseboard or electronics. For those applications I prefer to use resin based flux.

 

After I have used Powerflow I generally try to clean as much of as possible, using mechanical means, and then I put the items into my ultrasonic cleaner, in a solution of caustic soda to neutralise and remove any remaining acid flux.

 

David

Edited December 12, 2018 by Kylestrome

[queensquare]

Must admit I wont touch Powerflow as its too aggressive, I use either dilute phosphoric or rosin based.

 

Interestingly Ian Rathbone wont paint models that have been assembled using Powerflow as no matter how well scrubbed he has had too many instances where years later the paint starts to bubble due the the flux eating its way through.

 

Jerry

[Nigelcliffe]

Powerflo is great for plumbing, where it works well, though even then one needs to remember to clean the outside of the pipe thoroughly or it will go green/black.   

 

I don't use it on models because of the problems Jerry describes, plus the risk to any metal tools anywhere near the "splatter" range of the flux. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Crosland]

Must admit I wont touch Powerflow as its too aggressive, I use either dilute phosphoric or rosin based.

 

Was it Iain Rice that recommended Coca-Cola, in extremis, as a source of phosphoric in one of his books?

[Caley Jim]

Was it Iain Rice that recommended Coca-Cola, in extremis, as a source of phosphoric in one of his books?

Coca Cola (like all carbonated drinks) is extremely acidic, pH around 2, IIRC.  Try puting a tarnished penny in it for a day or so and see what happens to it!!  It will also strip the enamel off your teeth if you're not careful!!

 

Jim

[65179]

But from memory its phosphoric acid concentration is some way below that of phosphoric acid flux. I did work it out a while back, but I've forgotten the value, but quite a bit less than the usual 9 or 12% for flux.

 

Simon

[Nick Mitchell]

Life got quite busy in the run up to Christmas, but I've managed to put together this very short episode to keep things ticking over.

 

Once I started on the valve-gear, it became apparent that my fears about the slots in the valve-spindle cross-head castings were justified.

In the end I resorted to enlarging the slots using my Proxxon micro-mill.

I'm allowing myself this use of a machine tool, because if I'd been able to watch some idiot build one beforehand in a never-ending series of tutorial videos, I would have known what to do and simply enlarged the slots with a file when preparing the castings. (This only happened in Part 23 - but it seems so long ago now!)

Unfortunately, I am that idiot, and so I needed to get to the point where I could see exactly how deep the slots needed to be before going back in time time and fixing them.

 

Anyway, here's Part 29, explaining the nature of the problem, and how I fixed it...

 

https://youtu.be/0qSh0yOhytQ

 

[Lacathedrale]

I enjoyed the black and white flashback - very 'Crimestoppers'.

 

One thing that is really nice to see is you not always going for the Rolls Royce approach - cutting the cylinder end caps from rod by hand rather than on a lathe, for example. That said, I am starting to put together a little workshop, having just got myself a Proxxon mini pillar drill. I gather that kind of machining is not possible on it however. Would you recommend a lathe/milllilng machine for general work? It feels like it would be overkill for the average joe modeller but I am happy to be disabused of this notion!

 

Eagerly awaiting the next episode on the linkage/etc.

 

Best regards and a happy Christmas to you,

 

PS. is there a reason this series is unlisted? It would be a huge boon to publicity for 2FS for it to be searchable, I would have thought...

Edited December 28, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[John57sharp]

I enjoyed the black and white flashback - very 'Crimestoppers'.

 

One thing that is really nice to see is you not always going for the Rolls Royce approach - cutting the cylinder end caps from rod by hand rather than on a lathe, for example. That said, I am starting to put together a little workshop, having just got myself a Proxxon mini pillar drill. I gather that kind of machining is not possible on it however. Would you recommend a lathe/milllilng machine for general work? It feels like it would be overkill for the average joe modeller but I am happy to be disabused of this notion!

 

 

Without wanting to steal Nick’s thunder, I’m just going to say that I use a Peatol/Taig lathe alongside the Proxxon drill and it has served me well in 16mm scale as well as occasional 2FS use, I need to get some smaller work holders to make it more useful in the tiny scale. It has the advantage for me of being available in kit for, so you just buy what you need. Milling is possible, but easier on a mill from the same manufacturer, but I don’t have one of these.

 

Otherwise, an old watchmakers lathe would suit this scale well I would th8nk.

 

Have to agree about enjoying this series from Nick, learning so much and so inspiring, I have rebuilt my 08 chassis using lessons learned and now have a free running mechanism ready for the motor. Splendid.

 

Cheers John

[Nick Mitchell]

One thing that is really nice to see is you not always going for the Rolls Royce approach - cutting the cylinder end caps from rod by hand rather than on a lathe, for example ... Would you recommend a lathe/milllilng machine for general work?

 

I am conscious that lots of 2mm modellers do not own a lathe, and I wanted this series to be an encouragement for people to have a go at building a loco chassis.

Owning (and, more to the point, knowing how to use!) a lathe is by no means a pre-requisite to making models in 2mm scale.

 

While having a lathe makes lots of jobs quicker and easier, most of them could be done in different ways.

And when it comes to choosing lathes, there is quite a range of options available to the 2mm modeller. John has already mentioned the Taig/Peatol, which is a good choice.

Andrew Webster wrote a series of in-depth articles on lathes in the 2mm Magazine (August / October 2006) which you should look up in the archive. (If you don't have a copy of the Magazine archive, get hold of one - you will find it FAR more useful than a lathe!!!)

 

 

Since you ask, my own lathe is a Geneva pattern watchaker's lathe, which I bought about 11 years ago.

It is one of the Chinese "Sincere" lathes, which are still available new via eBay. The advantage of these is that they are relatively cheap (though not as cheap as they were a decade ago) and a fairly wide range of accessories is readily available.

I personally enjoy being able to turn free-hand with a graver - you can see me doing some of this part way through this video.

To learn how to set up and use a watchmaker's lathe properly and make gravers, I bought a set of DVDs from TickTock productions. Without them, I would not have a clue what I was doing. I think these are available as on-line tutorials as well as DVDs these days.

For doing anything larger than 2mm work, I would want a bigger lathe. If I had the space and the money, I would not hesitate to buy a Cowells lathe.

 

I use my milling machine far less than my lathe. That is probably because I'm less confident in how to use it properly. I'm sure there are all sorts of other things I could do with it...

 

 

PS. is there a reason this series is unlisted? It would be a huge boon to publicity for 2FS for it to be searchable, I would have thought...

 

Yes, there is.

But the series is publicised on the front page of the 2mm Scale Association website. Once it is complete, I (or the Association) may wish to do something else with it.

Anyway - you managed to find it, and surely that's the most important thing

[queensquare]

Superb posts as ever Nick, many thanks for taking the time and trouble to put them together.

 

I have a little Emco Unimat which is a cracking little lathe and perfect for 2mm work though they do seem to attract a premium price now. A lathe is certainly not essential but it is very useful and a lot of fun. Cost wise its probably around the price of a couple of locos which seems a bargain to me - in fact i got my Emco in exchange for building a pair of Lanky tanks in EM!

 

Jerry

[65179]

Once I started on the valve-gear, it became apparent that my fears about the slots in the valve-spindle cross-head castings were justified.

In the end I resorted to enlarging the slots using my Proxxon micro-mill.

 

Nice work on the valve gear crosshead guides Nick. For my Farish one I used the plastic ones that came with the loco. Once you've thinned them from the back you have rather more freedom to attach them where suits you, although as they are glued in place they are less robust.

 

The lathe info is also very useful. When finances allow I really must take the plunge.

 

Merry Christmas

 

Simon

[Nick Mitchell]

For my Farish one I used the plastic ones that came with the loco. Once you've thinned them from the back you have rather more freedom to attach them where suits you, although as they are glued in place they are less robust.

Thanks for the tip - I must admit I succumbed to a red short-firebox Farish jubilee that was being sold second-hand at a local exhibition a few weeks ago.

There must be limit to the number of Jubilees one person needs (especially with all the other kits waiting to be built), but they look so pretty!

I just need to persuade that nice Mr. Hunt to design a kit for the Fowler tender with all the rivets on it...

Well, I thought I was starting to assemble the valve gear, but then I found another little problem to correct, and an opportunity to add another little detail...

Here's another short episode - Part 30 - in which I make alterations to the radius-rod/lifting link, add a mystery bracket, and chat a little bit about the real thing.

Microscopic pivot joints next time - I promise!!!

 

https://youtu.be/5jV6MYEWWtc

[chrisveitch]

I enjoyed the black and white flashback - very 'Crimestoppers'.

 

One thing that is really nice to see is you not always going for the Rolls Royce approach - cutting the cylinder end caps from rod by hand rather than on a lathe, for example. That said, I am starting to put together a little workshop, having just got myself a Proxxon mini pillar drill. I gather that kind of machining is not possible on it however. Would you recommend a lathe/milllilng machine for general work? It feels like it would be overkill for the average joe modeller but I am happy to be disabused of this notion!

 

Eagerly awaiting the next episode on the linkage/etc.

 

Best regards and a happy Christmas to you,

 

PS. is there a reason this series is unlisted? It would be a huge boon to publicity for 2FS for it to be searchable, I would have thought...

This probably doesn’t apply to you if space is short, but it’s worth remembering that a bigger machine can usually do small work to the same degree of accuracy as the miniature ones like Proxxon. I bought one of these from Machine Mart a few years ago and it’s a well built and competent machine with indexable handwheels, and is perfectly happy with the tiny cutters and small workpieces we use:

 

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cmd10-micro-milling-drilling-machine/

 

The quality of these Chinese built machines does vary as has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, and this one is good - streets ahead of my 7x12 lathe from a different well-known UK supplier. If you have the space, something larger like this can give more flexibility and rigidity for not much more money. It can also give you a hernia when you pick it up to put it on the bench.

 

That said, I do still have a Unimat 3 with milling attachment but I can’t remember using it since I bought the bigger mill.

 

Apologies for the temporary thread hijack, Nick.

Edited December 29, 2018 by chrisveitch

[65179]

Thanks for the tip - I must admit I succumbed to a red short-firebox Farish jubilee that was being sold second-hand at a local exhibition a few weeks ago.

There must be limit to the number of Jubilees one person needs (especially with all the other kits waiting to be built), but they look so pretty!

 

As someone with two part-built Stanier 3500 gallon tenders and a Fowler tender from a 4F to be returned to after my NER interlude, I won't be the one telling you you've got too many Jubilees!

 

Simon

[Nick Mitchell]

Having a few days off work has seen me make good progress through the mountain of unedited video.

 

While RMWeb was off-line yesterday I managed to put the finishing touches on Part 31, which is quite a bit longer than the previous two episodes.

Here at last we come to the topic I know several people have been waiting for - making pivot joints between valve gear components.

 

The valve gear will be finished off in the next part (I hope!), and then we're on to the last lap, with the tender outside frames to construct and finally modifying the loco and tender body mouldings to fit the new chassis.

 

https://youtu.be/StNgsEyGNvY

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

Hi NIck, I did indeed find your video so all is well. Your link to the use of the lathe to turn the dome for that loco has made me realise there may be other playlists unlisted with your work. Watching you build the Jubilee has inspired me a great deal as I may have mentioned; so if you have other series I would be very eager to watch them. Can you share the link/s or are they in the vault, so to speak? Along those lines I had to sit on my hands quite solidly to avoid buying a lathe - I think that milestone comes AFTER I've built a few etched kits of my own.

 

You spoke about your files catching, is that a function of having sharp files and a gentle touch? I did catch my breath a bit when you turned that first assembly over and the file caught the long arm to spin it around! I can understand getting rid of the cusp from a loco frame, but how did you manage with the various parts of the valve gear? They almost seem too small to hold in the vice - certainly not vertically!

 

Lastly, would you go into a little detail on your soldering iron? I have a 'dumb' 20-ish watt one with a spade bit that's done me OK so far, but i feel like I may need to upgrade a bit when I get around to building delicate assemblies rather than laminating etched chassis. Lots of information out there, but it's mostly for larger scale modellers! If this is in the association magazine archive, I think I may just need to bite the bullet.

[Nick Mitchell]

Hi NIck, I did indeed find your video so all is well. Your link to the use of the lathe to turn the dome for that loco has made me realise there may be other playlists unlisted with your work. Watching you build the Jubilee has inspired me a great deal as I may have mentioned; so if you have other series I would be very eager to watch them. Can you share the link/s or are they in the vault, so to speak? Along those lines I had to sit on my hands quite solidly to avoid buying a lathe - I think that milestone comes AFTER I've built a few etched kits of my own.

 

You spoke about your files catching, is that a function of having sharp files and a gentle touch? I did catch my breath a bit when you turned that first assembly over and the file caught the long arm to spin it around! I can understand getting rid of the cusp from a loco frame, but how did you manage with the various parts of the valve gear? They almost seem too small to hold in the vice - certainly not vertically!

 

Lastly, would you go into a little detail on your soldering iron? I have a 'dumb' 20-ish watt one with a spade bit that's done me OK so far, but i feel like I may need to upgrade a bit when I get around to building delicate assemblies rather than laminating etched chassis. Lots of information out there, but it's mostly for larger scale modellers! If this is in the association magazine archive, I think I may just need to bite the bullet.

 

Files have teeth. The teeth bite into the metal and shave a little bit off. Sometimes the tooth can bite too deep into the metal and pull it along rather than shaving a bit off. The harder you press on, the more likely this is to happen. If your file isn't sharp, you naturally want to press on more, which leads to the file snagging. The horrible file I've been using on soldered surfaces has large teeth relative to the size of the parts I've been filing, which brings more danger, so I've been using very light strokes.

 

Swiss files come with a "number" cut. The higher the number, the finer the teeth. My finest file, e.g. for getting the edges of valve-gear components really smooth, is a #6 cut pillar file. My "normal" files are #4 cut. I also have #2 cut files for rough work. Rough here being a relative term! Vallorbe are a good make and are widely available.

 

To hold these tiny components you need a really good watchmaker's vice that can grip right on the edge of very thin metal. This is the cheap version. The posh one by Bergeon is 3 times the price. (I have the cheap one!)

 

A good vice and good files are absolutely essential if you want to build locos in 2mm scale.

 

My soldering iron is an Antex 50W temperature controlled soldering station. It is obsolete now, having been replaced by a more expensive digital version. I love it, but you don't need one. Before I bought it I used a normal 25W Antex for everything. One good thing about the TC it is the very flexible wire (silicone?). Tip size is much more important than the number of watts... as is cleanliness, a tinned bit, flux and holding the parts still. Most of the Jubilee construction has used a 1mm straight chisel tip. You will will have seen that when I was soldering the bogie pivot I needed to change to a bigger tip so there was more heat flow through the larger contact area. I didn't alter the temperature setting on the iron - which (so long as it is above the melting point of the solder!) doesn't make much difference.

 

As for my videos, there are only a couple of others. The links have been posted here on RMWeb. This is my first (and given the time it has taken me, possibly only!) series. Glad you're enjoying it though

[Nick Mitchell]

Part 32 is here, in which the valve gear is completed and inspected. I'm really pleased to have got to this point - only 6 months and over 10 hours of edited videos later! I reckon I've spent at least 40 hours on the actual construction. I know I'm not the fastest worker, but I'd be interested to know how that compares with other builders of loco kits. I don't dare think about how much time I've spent in front of the PC so far! Still, I will carry on until the kit is completed.

 

One snag is that as I've been handling the cylinder block, I've found the soldered joints connecting the cylinders to the PCB spacer beginning to fail.

This may be to do with me cutting two sets of gaps to divide the spacer into 3 sections, and consequently the areas left for soldering are quite small. In future, I would use a wider piece of PCB.

In one corner, the copper of the PCB has de-laminated, so I can't just re-solder it.

Rather than risk the cylinders dropping to bits, I've decided to solder them permanently to the main frames at the front. I hope I don't live to regret it - but there's definitely no going back now!

 

Watching the video back brings it home just how tight the clearances are for many parts of the valve-gear. I have, however, managed to get away without needing to crank parts in and out in order to clear each other - something which is often necessary. It is testament to Nigel's excellent design work that everything has gone together so smoothly.

 

https://youtu.be/PkLZazkD45g

[Valentin]

[...]

 

To hold these tiny components you need a really good watchmaker's vice that can grip right on the edge of very thin metal. This is the cheap version. The posh one by Bergeon is 3 times the price. (I have the cheap one!)

 

[...]

 

This vice, brought to our attention by Jerry in another topic, seems identical to the one you have but is £30 cheaper. As I have to buy a vice for myself I wonder if I go wrong by choosing the one from Cooksongold and not the one sold by Shesto.

 

Wishing you all a Happy New Year,

 

Valentin

[Nick Mitchell]

This vice, brought to our attention by Jerry in another topic, seems identical to the one you have but is £30 cheaper. As I have to buy a vice for myself I wonder if I go wrong by choosing the one from Cooksongold and not the one sold by Shesto.

 

I hadn't remembered Jerry's post, and hadn't spent time rummaging around the internet for a cheaper deal - merely pointed to where I'd got mine several years ago. I don't remember them being so expensive back then. However, the Cooksongold one isn't actually in stock at the moment. Maybe they will go up when they are re-stocked?

 

Anyway, the vices probably are the same, so feel free to save yourself some money!

Speaking of which, I wonder if the 2mm Scale Association members' discount at Shestos is still in operation? (Look in the members only area of the 2mm website for the code).

Edited January 1, 2019 by Nick Mitchell

[queensquare]

I hadn't remembered Jerry's post, and hadn't spent time rummaging around the internet for a cheaper deal - merely pointed to where I'd got mine several years ago. I don't remember them being so expensive back then. However, the Cooksongold one isn't actually in stock at the moment. Maybe they will go up when they are re-stocked?

 

Anyway, the vices probably are the same, so feel free to save yourself some money!

Speaking of which, I wonder if the 2mm Scale Association members' discount at Shestos is still in operation? (Look in the members only area of the 2mm website for the code).

 

Wherever you get your vice it will be a sound investment, that and good quality files are essential.

 

Jerry