kandc_au Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 I was referring specifically to the loco etches, wagons are a bit different being generally smaller - although the one wagon kit we do has its own tool. Sorry Michael, I wasn't having a shot or anything, but rather agreeing with you. What I was saying re cost was about the costs of reorganising all the etches. not just loco, but also the wagons into a a more practical mix. ie: wagons could still be a few to a sheet but the more popular ones together and the not so popular ones together. but also mentioned was the quality of castings as well.......at least they know what is what with them. Khris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 5, 2019 Author Share Posted January 5, 2019 Sorry Michael, I wasn't having a shot or anything, but rather agreeing with you. What I was saying re cost was about the costs of reorganising all the etches. not just loco, but also the wagons into a a more practical mix. ie: wagons could still be a few to a sheet but the more popular ones together and the not so popular ones together. but also mentioned was the quality of castings as well.......at least they know what is what with them. Khris Khris, Surely the answer is multiples of the same wagon to a single sheet - ie. one sheet per wagon. Etches would only be ordered when and if the commitments to purchase had been received; (accompanied by a small but significant deposit?); to cover the number of kits on a sheet. Deposits could be refundable if the etches were not produced within a pre-agreed timescale. I would not have thought that taking a piece of artwork for a single wagon, and duplicating it (photographically?) onto a whole sheet artwork, would be too time-consuming or expensive. In fact, could this not be done at the time of transferring the arwork onto the sheet metal? Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2019 Khris, Surely the answer is multiples of the same wagon to a single sheet - ie. one sheet per wagon. Etches would only be ordered when and if the commitments to purchase had been received; (accompanied by a small but significant deposit?); to cover the number of kits on a sheet. Deposits could be refundable if the etches were not produced within a pre-agreed timescale. I would not have thought that taking a piece of artwork for a single wagon, and duplicating it (photographically?) onto a whole sheet artwork, would be too time-consuming or expensive. In fact, could this not be done at the time of transferring the arwork onto the sheet metal? Regards, John Isherwood. There are not many that etch using photographic tools now, You also have to have an original piece of artwork to replicate the way suggested. Utilising an existing tool is not an option (as far as I understand) Modern etching uses CAD, I supply my artwork in 2 forms as a double check. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 The original artwork was probably hand drawn and may not still exists, even though the etch tools made from it does. So changes to the tools may be difficult and major changes may require new CAD artwork. Mixing different models on one tool invariably means that it is difficult to get the mix correct, so separate tools for each kit is better. Even with locos you may need two or more tools for loco/tender bodies and chassis to get the appropriate etch materials Getting an extensive range like Falcon Brassworks back into production is no easy task, may need considerable outlay and a lot effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time! Take a protoype, learn how to use the software as you design the kit. Then do another, and another ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 The original artwork was probably hand drawn and may not still exists, even though the etch tools made from it does. So changes to the tools may be difficult and major changes may require new CAD artwork. Mixing different models on one tool invariably means that it is difficult to get the mix correct, so separate tools for each kit is better. Even with locos you may need two or more tools for loco/tender bodies and chassis to get the appropriate etch materials Getting an extensive range like Falcon Brassworks back into production is no easy task, may need considerable outlay and a lot effort. I think their list was quite comprehensive and probably a waste of time reintroducing those covered by other manufacturers How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time! Take a protoype, learn how to use the software as you design the kit. Then do another, and another ... In one way quite true, but from what has been said most kits would have to be redrawn, and in lots of cases amended to rectfy errors and or adapt modern building methods. If that is the case its far more expensive and time consuming and not in the true sense a reintroduction but a new model, unless there is an easy method to copy to the new process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) In one way quite true, but from what has been said most kits would have to be redrawn, and in lots of cases amended to rectfy errors and or adapt modern building methods. If that is the case its far more expensive and time consuming and not in the true sense a reintroduction but a new model, unless there is an easy method to copy to the new process. I don't know that I can agree. When the Jidenco range was first introduced the quality was of it's time - there was the odd (correctable) error, and the standard of detailing was fairly basic. Nonetheless, we bought, built and detailed them and, as a result, we have some very presentable models of some fairly esoteric subjects. The quality of the kits hasn't deteriorated in the many years since that time; (if anything, the etchings are better than in the past). So, given the will to put into a model the same time and effort as of yore, there is no reason for the etches to be redrawn. If the aim is to produce a range of kits of most of the same subjects, but to 'present-day standards', then I would submit that such a project would not be financially viable. There would be insufficient demand to justify the cost of a complete redesign exercise; given the 'oddball' nature of many of the models. What I do think is viable is a better organised re-introduction of the range from the original artwork, modified only so that kits of a single subject could be produced from a single etch. These kits will only ever command sales in relatively small numbers, and those who wish to purchase them will almost all be willing to put in the extra effort required to achieve the desired model. I believe that the 'expressions of interest / refundable deposit' system would be the optimum way to reintroduce the Falcon Brassworks range. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited January 6, 2019 by cctransuk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 I don't know that I can agree. When the Jidenco range was first introduced the quality was of it's time - there was the odd (correctable) error, and the standard of detailing was fairly basic. Nonetheless, we bought, built and detailed them and, as a result, we have some very presentable models of some fairly esoteric subjects. The quality of the kits hasn't deteriorated in the many years since that time; (if anything, the etchings are better than in the past). So, given the will to put into a model the same time and effort as of yore, there is no reason for the etches to be redrawn. If the aim is to produce a range of kits of most of the same subjects, but to 'present-day standards', then I would submit that such a project would not be financially viable. There would be insufficient demand to justify the cost of a complete redesign exercise; given the 'oddball' nature of many of the models. What I do think is viable is a better organised re-introduction of the range from the original artwork, modified only so that kits of a single subject could be produced from a single etch. These kits will only ever command sales in relatively small numbers, and those who wish to purchase them will almost all be willing to put in the extra effort required to achieve the desired model. I believe that the 'expressions of interest / refundable deposit' system would be the optimum way to reintroduce the Falcon Brassworks range. Regards, John Isherwood. John, I would agree with your premise that reorganising the original artwork to put each "viable" model onto its own tool is a good idea, provided that the original artwork is still available to be copied. Further, most of the photo etch companies have now disposed of their camera photo reduction equipment and film has become expensive and difficult to obtain. All the etch artwork I have produced, starting in 1999, was done with 2D CAD and it was already common practise to produce the tooling straight from the CAD file. Is it therefore still possible to create new tooling from the original hard copy artwork? Is it still available? Which kits are worth re-introducing, given that some have been produced elsewhere - and usually better - and some also need some changes to make them sufficiently accurate or possible to build? Things have moved on since the introduction of the original Jidenco range, which became Falcon Brass, and I think only those where there/is has been no later alternative would be worth introducing. Even then, the sales potentials might be so low that any investment in a rework doesn't add up. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 6, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2019 What I do think is viable is a better organised re-introduction of the range from the original artwork, modified only so that kits of a single subject could be produced from a single etch. I know of no companies now who will create etching tools form hand drawn artwork. It is easier to just redraw the subject in CAD to create a single tool for each prototype. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 John, I would agree with your premise that reorganising the original artwork to put each "viable" model onto its own tool is a good idea, provided that the original artwork is still available to be copied. Further, most of the photo etch companies have now disposed of their camera photo reduction equipment and film has become expensive and difficult to obtain. All the etch artwork I have produced, starting in 1999, was done with 2D CAD and it was already common practise to produce the tooling straight from the CAD file. Is it therefore still possible to create new tooling from the original hard copy artwork? Is it still available? Which kits are worth re-introducing, given that some have been produced elsewhere - and usually better - and some also need some changes to make them sufficiently accurate or possible to build? Things have moved on since the introduction of the original Jidenco range, which became Falcon Brass, and I think only those where there/is has been no later alternative would be worth introducing. Even then, the sales potentials might be so low that any investment in a rework doesn't add up. Jol So, even though the films (photo etch tools?) clearly still exist; (Falcon Brass were able to have frets produced); it is not possible to adapt those films to produce multiple identical frets within the same full etch sheet? Regards, John Isherwood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
88D Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 In his quiz programme of yonks ago Humphrey Lyttleton used to have a fictitious assistant called Samantha But with Humh’s Samantha, you got the impression she would try to satisfy you all the time. Or have I Misread the programme all these years? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Sinking any more money into separating up kits that share a current tool is probably throwing good money after bad, the cost of doing so would probably far outweigh any future sales or economies. If the phototools were still with the original owner the cost would have been amortised so long ago that if a tool had kit A+B on it and you only tended to sell the occasional A then the margin should be high enough to allow you to sell these and accept that there isn't much/any profit, but then regard every B that you sell as 100% profit. There are two obvious problems, Samantha has bought the range from someone else, which means that unless she paid almost nothing for it, the cost of the phototool *to her* hasn't been amortised, so the margins are totally different. The second problem comes if you have chassis in n/s on one sheet, and bodies in brass on another (which would be pretty typical for a loco) and the profit on an A doesn't cover the extra B,C and D's you have to turn out to get the A's. I would think that most model railway manufacturers are buying one of each sheet at a time (maybe 2 or 3 of known high sellers) but have a big enough range that they can order half a dozen different sheets to at least divide the cost of P&P from the etcher to them across a reasonable number of kits - but that cost could be £25 on a big etch - regardless of if you have 1 sale or 50 from it. Most etched kits will probably sell strongly (a couple of dozen? ) in the first couple of year as the pent up demand is satisfied, but after that probably settle down into the 1-5 per year sort of numbers. Whitemetal is even worse - as I understand it you need to get the mould hot enough to let things flow, that might take a few warming up spins of the mould - the parts may not be usable, but they all count towards the wear-lifetime of the mould, so the more you have spun at once, the better. Jon Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) If we are talking about wagon and carriage kits then the whitemetal parts are probably insignificant. Dart already have most of the relevant buffers, axleboxes, vacuum pipes, etc. in their ranges. https://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt.php Jason Edited January 6, 2019 by Steamport Southport Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 I don't know that I can agree. When the Jidenco range was first introduced the quality was of it's time - there was the odd (correctable) error, and the standard of detailing was fairly basic. Nonetheless, we bought, built and detailed them and, as a result, we have some very presentable models of some fairly esoteric subjects. The quality of the kits hasn't deteriorated in the many years since that time; (if anything, the etchings are better than in the past). So, given the will to put into a model the same time and effort as of yore, there is no reason for the etches to be redrawn. If the aim is to produce a range of kits of most of the same subjects, but to 'present-day standards', then I would submit that such a project would not be financially viable. There would be insufficient demand to justify the cost of a complete redesign exercise; given the 'oddball' nature of many of the models. What I do think is viable is a better organised re-introduction of the range from the original artwork, modified only so that kits of a single subject could be produced from a single etch. These kits will only ever command sales in relatively small numbers, and those who wish to purchase them will almost all be willing to put in the extra effort required to achieve the desired model. I believe that the 'expressions of interest / refundable deposit' system would be the optimum way to reintroduce the Falcon Brassworks range. Regards, John Isherwood. I have build a few kits and each one has design flaws, which have repeatedly been discussed in many threads. Certainly not up to today's standards and were even not known as good kits in their hayday. What they had was a range of quite exocit kits other companies did not produce. As inferred by a few posters the method of etching has altered and the etchers need the artwork in a different format. Given that the artwork needs transposing on to the new system how many of the kits would still be financially viable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 If the original artwork is available, it would be straightforward to scan it and import it into, say, Inkscape then scale it to ensure dimensional accuracy. The original could be copied (and tidied up), re-assembled as desired, i.e. separate images for each product and saved as a PDF file. At least one etching company (the one I use) will accept PDF files and etch from them, after separation into front and back copies, which they do for me. It all depends whether the original (hand-drawn?) artwork is available or whether access to the etching tools is possible. Either would make a suitable starting point. Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 6, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2019 If the original artwork is available, it would be straightforward to scan it and import it into, say, Inkscape then scale it to ensure dimensional accuracy. The original could be copied (and tidied up), re-assembled as desired, i.e. separate images for each product and saved as a PDF file. At least one etching company (the one I use) will accept PDF files and etch from them, after separation into front and back copies, which they do for me. It all depends whether the original (hand-drawn?) artwork is available or whether access to the etching tools is possible. Either would make a suitable starting point. Stan I use the same company and although they will accept a PDF it still has to be drawn in CAD, Rather than utilise the original artwork which has some flaws it would be easier to just start again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rab Posted January 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2019 I use the same company and although they will accept a PDF it still has to be drawn in CAD, Rather than utilise the original artwork which has some flaws it would be easier to just start again. A nice little task for someone with a CAD package and time on their hands, given a set of hand drawn artworks and copying onto CAD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 If the original artwork is available, it would be straightforward to scan it and import it into, say, Inkscape then scale it to ensure dimensional accuracy. The original could be copied (and tidied up), re-assembled as desired, i.e. separate images for each product and saved as a PDF file. At least one etching company (the one I use) will accept PDF files and etch from them, after separation into front and back copies, which they do for me. It all depends whether the original (hand-drawn?) artwork is available or whether access to the etching tools is possible. Either would make a suitable starting point. Stan It may not be quite so simple - the front and back etch masks will have been aligned with registration markers in the original artwork- if you're scanning each side separately and cutting bits out, moving them around and duplicating them to produce a new mask you will have lost the front/back registration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted January 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) Having got a pair of Falcon Brass loco kits in the drawer, looking at them there is a lot that potentially needs changing if they were ever to be put back into production. They don't have proper full etched axle holes and you are expected to use parts of the fret for various items. Also it is a bit obvious that various items which should be a matching pair aren't! As these are kits for two HR locos that are unavailable elsewhere I have wondered if they are scannable and then using the scans to re-draw the bits to a modern standard. Then there are the instructions, which frankly are hardly worth the manky bit of paper that they are printed on! The castings on the other hand are pretty good, so if they could be purchased (presuming the moulds are any good!) that would be a great help. I really need to learn how to use a drawing program (I don't seem to get on with Inkscape for some reason). Andy G Edited January 6, 2019 by uax6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D6975 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 But with Humh’s Samantha, you got the impression she would try to satisfy you all the time. Or have I Misread the programme all these years? Samantha disappeared a while ago, replaced by Sven. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharris Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 If you are talking about scanning a fret and drawing a new version over it, remember that what you see on the photo master isn't what you have on the fret - edges positions in the master will need tweaking so that it accounts for etching cusps, hole sizes will need tweaking a bit, etc. The amount of tweaking will depend on the thickness of material. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 I really need to learn how to use a drawing program (I don't seem to get on with Inkscape for some reason). Andy G If I can do it, you certanly can.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2019 Yes but I find Inkscape so difficult to grasp. I could also do with a program that can output vector for another project. Any ideas anyone? Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2019 Yes but I find Inkscape so difficult to grasp. I could also do with a program that can output vector for another project. Any ideas anyone? Andy G Etch a sketch ? https://www.amazon.com/Etch-A-Sketch-Classic-Red/dp/B01MTS465O Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted January 7, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 7, 2019 But how do I save on that Dave? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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