The Nutley, Crowborough and Groombridge Light Railway - Fictional Narrow Gauge in East Sussex

[BlueLightning]

Thank Kevin,

 

I have only had a quick glance but it looks an interesting read! So far the timescale is not 100% tied down, although I had been thinking pre-WW1, but the idea of setting during the war and having Canadian troops there is quite appealing so that may change!!!

 

Gary

[Edwardian]

Thank Kevin,

 

I have only had a quick glance but it looks an interesting read! So far the timescale is not 100% tied down, although I had been thinking pre-WW1, but the idea of setting during the war and having Canadian troops there is quite appealing so that may change!!!

 

Gary

 

Well, in that case ...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZa26_esLBE

[sem34090]

Deary me...

 

We're only on page 2 and he's already introduced the themes or 'Women's clothing, suspenders and bras'... not forgetting high heels... and lavatories...

 

Still, I was wondering when Mr Palin would make an appearance given all the talk of trees and Canadians...

[Nearholmer]

He's currently busy over in Castle Aching, playing his role as a sadistic dentist in 'Brazil'; he can't be expected to be everywhere at once.

 

Oh ...,. Seems he can.

 

Nobody expects ......

 

More to the point, Blue Lightning, if you don't want to go for during the war (which I actually think would make an exceedingly good model), you could go immediately after, when some of the stands that the Canadians had started on, or were about to hack into (!) were felled by contractors using the kit that they left behind.

 

Friston Forest at West Dean was logged using railways c1920, by a contractor/concessioner to the Timber DIsposal Department, and Vert Wood at East Hoathly was felled by Mid Sussex Timber Company, also using railways, I think in about 1929.

 

More interesting free reading here https://archive.org/stream/canadianforestry00birduoft#page/n5/mode/2up

 

All of the CFC war diaries are on line, but they take an absolute age to read, and finding the railway references isn't easy. As noted above, I read 125th Company, and that was enough for me!

Edited May 15, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

More essential background reading https://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/cmon-4uum6r

 

This skips over the administrative arrangements during WW1 and immediately after, which were a tad confusing:

 

"Before May 1917 these are records of the Timber Committee of the Office of Works the Home Grown Timber Committee of the Board of Agriculture and the Controller of Timber Supplies of the War Office. After May 1917 they are records of the Timber Supplies Department of the Board of Trade, and later of the Timber Disposal Department which succeeded it."

 

They had approximately one civil servant per tree looking after it, by the looks of things!

[Edwardian]

 'Brazil'

 

A brilliant, very disturbing and in some ways prophetic film.

 

Palin's cross-dressing lumberjack - and why not? - represents an altogether more innocent time than Gilliam's brilliant but dark vision of the future .....

 

.... an altogether more innocent time, a time of singing Vikings and .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8huXkSaL7o

[Nearholmer]

Look what I found in an old biscuit tin at the back of cupboard.

 

All pure 1960s r-t-r.

[BlueLightning]

Very Nice!!! Exactly the sort of thing I want for this layout!!

 

You seem to have roughly as much track as me there as well! :jester:

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

You really don’t want exactly that, because if there is a toy train that runs frustratingly badly, it’s a 1960s eggerbahn with the second design of motor. It has remained in good condition the same way that certain people seem to: by doing nothing, decoratively.

 

The track was equally questionable, being made from hyper-staining steel. I don’t think that even my junk cupboard contains any.

[BlueLightning]

Thanks for the warning!!! Over the years I have looked at lots of eggerbahn stuff on eBay! It really is rather shocking that I don't own any already! I will probably avoid it, although that's for the best, as there is plenty of 009 stuff I want without buying loads more on eBay just because it is there!!!

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

The very early locos were good, by the standards of the day, but the designer couldn’t make the system pay while maintaining his own high standards, and either cheapened it himself, or sold it to Playcraft or Jouef, who cheapened it, I forget the exact order of events, after which things were never quite as good.

 

This site has a good potted history https://www.egger-bahn.de/english/index.htm

 

These old locos are really only fit for collectors, or very simple ‘roundly roundy’ layouts, having been left behind by the progress of technology three or more decades ago.

 

You can, of course, take out a second mortgage, and buy the exquisite replicas, made in brass, with super-duper mechanisms, by the modern eggerbahn company in Switzerland ...... they must rank among the most expensive toy trains in the world on a £/cm^3 basis.

http://www.egger-bahn.ch/_prev/index.html

Edited May 15, 2018 by Nearholmer

[BlueLightning]

The new ones cost how much?!?!?!?!??!?!?! I'm sure I must have read those prices wrong!!

 

If my current project creating a Small England works out OK once it has a chassis under it I may well have created my own relatively cheap way of getting 009 locos. We will just have to wait and see how it pans out.

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

And, this one was creeping round the garden under the cover of twilight.

 

Heavily modified LGB this time.

 

You want to watch these forestry trains; they’ll take over before you know it.

[BlueLightning]

Very nice!!! I would love a G gauge line round the garden, but I don't trust the local chavs not to come and nick the rails!!

 

Gary

[Edwardian]

You want to watch these forestry trains; they’ll take over before you know it.

 

Indeed!

[Nearholmer]

BB?

[Annie]

Delightful  

[Nearholmer]

Reading further into the minutes of the Ashdown Forest Conservators:

 

"Mr. Hubert Powell and Mr. Graham attended before the Board on behalf of the promoters of a proposed Light Railway from Sheffield Park station to Groombridge station which they proposed to carry across the Forest from Minepits Nutley through Duddleswell to the vicinity of Crow and Gate and applied for the consent of the Board thereto. It was proposed by Mr. Turner seconded by Mr. Sandford and resolved that the consideration of the application be deferred till the next meeting Notice thereof to be placed on the Agenda and that in the meantime the Clerk take such steps as he may deem necessary to ascertain the position of the Conservators in relation thereto and whether having regard to the fact that the Forest has been subjected to an order for regulation such a scheme can be carried out under the Light Railways Act and that the Clerk is empowered to take the opinion of Counsel."

 

Which all seems so-so, until you realise that the Mr Turner who proposed the motion was the same Mr Albert Turner who was promoting the railway, and the same Mr Albert Turner who was Chaiman of the Conservators.

 

Either there was a huge conflict of interests at play, or the Conservators had 'boiled-up' the scheme in the first place, which might be considered ....... a conflict of interests, given that their prime role was (still is) to protect the forest (which, to confuse the unwary, is actually an open Heath, with barely any trees), and the grazing that is provides. The stands of timber are mainly not 'in the forest proper', but form woods on its lower slopes.

 

If my father was still with us, I'd be suggesting to him that he might want to do a little historical detective work.

[Nearholmer]

And, for map-o-philes.

 

This isn't exact, because I haven't yet seen the plans and sections, but it must be fairly close to the projected route, knowing the lie of the land.

 

The objectors got an engineer from the GWR to come and "rubbish" the proposal, and he got all exercised because it included 1:40 gradients and curves down to, I think, 9 chains, which probably looked terrible to a man used to a billiard-table, but was actually quite practical for a LR. The worst bits were apparently near a place that is called Penn's Rocks on maps, but is really called Penn's-in-the-Rocks, which would have been where the line was clambering up out of the Medway Valley onto the shoulder of the forest, at the Groombridge end.

[BlueLightning]

Thank you Kevin!!!

 

An interesting read and a route map!! This is why I love this website so much! Please post any more info you have/find!! Now I just have to decide which bit of the route I am going to model!

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

Phew!!

 

I suddenly had a rare pang of guilt, thinking that I might be thread-jacking by going on so much.

 

Deciding which bit to represent? Walking boots on; walk the route.

 

On locos, I suggest you might want to heed Regularity's words about the implausibility of a lot of 009 layouts. The FR did lend an Prince (IIRC) to the VoR, so it's not entirely alien engine for a 'modern' LR, but how likely is it that one came to Sussex?

 

If you have a mech for it, said mech could, almost certainly, be used for a more likely loco, that wouldn't be too hard to scratchbuild. The Fleischmann Piccolo, for instance, will do a Bagnall 0-4-0ST or a Barclay 0-4-0WT very easily, and that is a very likely type of loco.

[BlueLightning]

No need for guilt, all your posts have been very helpful and interesting!!

 

You are right it is not far at all for me to go for a walk and see the route first hand!!

 

and yes "Prince" is a bit of a stretch for a line in Sussex, although in reality he is more of a "proof of concept" for a rather unconventional method of some cheap 009, I will be revealing more details once I am happy it works in the hope that others can find it useful. I like the look of that loco and have an idea on how I could produce a cheap one! So watch this space as they say!!!

 

Gary

[sir douglas]

i think that a scratchbuilt freelance loco specifically built to run your line will look better than any borrowed ones like the talyllyn or ffestiniog such as the pug on a farish chassis, having your own unique locos and stock gives character and depth to the layout

[BlueLightning]

Hopefully something like that will happen in time. As I am now really liking the idea of setting the layout during WW1 I am thinking about the possibility of adding a Baldwin to the fleet, but would they have been used on UK lines during the war? or were they all sent to France?

 

If they were used in the UK during the war I will worry about why it came to the NC&GLR later!

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

The vast majority of the CFC lines were 3ft gauge, and used mainly Bagnall 0-4-ST, or KS Haig class, although there were various oddities too.

 

The Kerry Tramway might be a better inspiration, because that pre-dated WW1, as your line would, and had both ‘old’ and ‘new’ Locos.

 

To squeeze a 4-6-0T in, I think you’d need to go just post-WW1, when you they were flogged-off, but I will delve further ....... some never got to France, and you might find a convenient crossover, before the final CFC left, where one could be diverted to your line.

 

In France, the CFC raioways were operated by LROD for them, from what I can work out, and there are cracking photos of 4-6-0T on forestry trains, and photos of a rather good bogie coach that the lumberjacks built.

 

A rather random possibility is a minitrains Porter 0-4-0ST, in that a couple of American/Canadian locos very similar to those were used on 3ft gauge forestry operations in Britain by the CFC.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Nearholmer