The Nutley, Crowborough and Groombridge Light Railway - Fictional Narrow Gauge in East Sussex

[BlueLightning]

Once again thank you for the very informative post!! I will have to look into those locos! and I shall spend some time later seeing what I can find out about the Kerry Tramway.

 

You really are being very helpful to this project!!!

 

Gary

[Northroader]

How about this?

http://train-abreschviller.fr/

[BlueLightning]

Very nice!!

 

I love the passenger "carriages" at the bottom of the Historical page!

 

Gary

[Andy Kirkham]

i think that a scratchbuilt freelance loco specifically built to run your line will look better than any borrowed ones like the talyllyn or ffestiniog such as the pug on a farish chassis, having your own unique locos and stock gives character and depth to the layout

The trouble is that there is practically no "typical" British narrow gauge locomotive (at least on the public lines). Each railway had its own characteristic machines which any enthusiast will immediately recognise. and in my view transplanting them to an imaginary line is never convincing.

[Regularity]

The trouble is that there is practically no "typical" British narrow gauge locomotive (at least on the public lines). Each railway had its own characteristic machines which any enthusiast will immediately recognise. and in my view transplanting them to an imaginary line is never convincing.

There are two solutions to this.

One is to follow the example of several prototype lines and use second hand war surplus equipment, but that is largely outside of “our” era here.

The other is to build models based on proposed designs, as Dave Taylor has done with his Marsh Vale Railway (Charmouth, Bridport, etc), with that lovely Hunslet 4-4-0T designed for the Lyndon and Barnstable Railway, also the way he adapted the Hunslet 4-6-0T into a 2-4-2T with tramway skirts. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/35253-dlts-ng-workbench-new-hunslet-again/?hl=bridport

[BlueLightning]

Hopefully a "home fleet" will build up over time. The pugbash being the first of these! I actually have a second one of these kits so there is a chance of a second different pugbash at some point in the future.

 

When this happens the "borrowed" locos will most likely be retired from public view. Until then, they are hopefully a quick, easy, and cheap way for me to get going in 009

 

Gary

[sir douglas]

the war department Baguleys were supposed to go to the front but were insufficient so were relegated to logging and yard work, dont know if any did wartime logging over here but they did in france

http://www.wdlr.org.uk/tracks2trenches/site/wp-content/gallery/preserved/baguley-760.jpg

[BlueLightning]

Well now. That is an odd looking thing!!! and I mean that in a very good way! I want one!!!!

 

I assume it is powered by an infernal combustion engine of some kind? Judging by the exhaust on the side

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

The classic thing to do for public railway locos for a freelance LR model is to look at what manufacturers were offering in their catalogues, and “buy” a couple of them. KS did a nice range of 0-4-2T, for instance, and here is a page from the Brush catalogue, with some 0-6-0T that look good, if a little long in the wheelbase. They’re cheaper than modern eggerbahn!

 

It’s easy to overlook the fact that one could send a telegram, and order an entire narrow gauge railway on short delivery, or, if you only wanted something simple, direct from stock, and have it delivered anywhere in the world.

[Nearholmer]

And, yes, the Baguley 4WPM were used on short logging lines in Britain. They are very weedy, though, so would hardly make it over ten miles at any speed with more than a featherweight train.

[BlueLightning]

So they were used but quite useless, sounds ideal!!! :jester:

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

And, since Northroader has snuck a French line in, here is another one, which was sort of half forestry railway, half common carrier http://reseau-train-ho-de-paquito40.e-monsite.com/pages/la-compagnie-du-cfefl/roquefort-lencouacq-jourets.html

 

It had two coaches which were absolute dead-ringers for those on the W&L, to the degree where I am sure copying must have gone on, possibly both copying from Germany.

 

75cm Gauge is very rare in France, so the two we’ve highlighted are exceptional.

 

The website has stacks of other fascinating stuff on it to, including wooden railways.

 

Rioutously busy old train service!

Edited May 16, 2018 by Nearholmer

[BlueLightning]

Another very interesting looking line!

 

 

It had two coaches which were absolute dead-ringers for those on the W&L, to the degree where I am sure copying must have gone on, possibly both copying from Germany

 

Well if they can do that I must be able to copy from Wales!!! :jester:  After all the promoters went there for research in 1899!

 

Gary

[Annie]

And, yes, the Baguley 4WPM were used on short logging lines in Britain. They are very weedy, though, so would hardly make it over ten miles at any speed with more than a featherweight train.

Yes the keepers of the only surviving example in running condition describe it as being a bit fragile.

[Nearholmer]

Respecting always Rule 1, I still have deep reservations about the idea of old and very unusual locos like Prince on a newish LR is Sussex.

 

Pushing again the ‘catalogue standard’ items, the c1906 locos on the Snailbeach District are great examples, ‘Dennis’ in particular looks good for thrashing uphill when needed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snailbeach_District_Railways and https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/colonel-stephens-railways/snailbeach-district-railway/the-snailbeach-locomotives

 

Goodness knows why the W&L bought the locos they did; I bet Bagnall could have undercut BP, and ‘Dennis’ has a very similar specification to ‘Earl’ and ‘Countess’.

 

Fletcher Jennings locos were rare in the SE, but, as the Dorking Greystone Lime trio, which all made it to preservation prove, not absent altogether. But, FJ were really struggling by 1900, because they hadn’t moved on to cheaper, more standardised, produducts made using more modern techniques. People could, and did, buy cheaper, especially from Bagnall.

 

One of the several reasons that so many of us believe that Castle Aching and the WNR really exist, which of course they do, is th at Edwardian picks locos and stock that are utterly plausible: strange to modern eyes, but not at all strange in context.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Nearholmer

[BlueLightning]

Dennis looks like an ideal loco! I quite like the design on the Kerr Stewart as well!

 

I will however once again stress that "Prince" is a proof of concept for some cheap and relativity easy 009 locos. At least one of the potential projects it could lead onto would be a "home grown" design.

 

It just so happens that he is also the prototype of my favourite Railway Series character, and as a result part of my inspiration for wanting to have a narrow gauge layout. So he is staying!

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

Alright, I promise to be quiet!

 

I think I must have been unduly influenced by ‘Duncan’ (a Barclay well tank) and ‘Rusty’(a R&H), giving me a taste for the catalogued industrials.

[Northroader]

Comparing the Snailbeach and the W&L is a bit of an oranges and apples situation, as the Snailbeach was a mineral line with the loaded traffic coming downhill, and the W&L really had the flow of loaded traffic against the worst grades, taking coal in particular to Llanfair. The Snailbeach was 3.5 miles long at best, with two miles of 1/39, when I saw it going it was just gravity working from the quarry, although perforce the traction was a Fordson farm tractor. At the same time the Welshpool line was running around half a dozen wagons of coal for 9 miles including up Sylfaen bank, half a mile of 1/29, and in earlier days running passenger trains with vac brakes. All round I’d say the heavier tank engines on the W&L were fully justified, then it’s a question of do you need a heavier engine on the front to help with braking power? A lot of downhill mineral lines managed quite happily with brakeman/men working wagon brakes, but forestry lines pictures usually show loco hauled trains with a brakie assisting. Drawing on Kevin’s expertise, what are the gradients likely to be, and which way do they act on the flow of traffic?

Edit: ps. Wouldn’t the Welsh Hunslets be a good choice, with available models?

Edited May 17, 2018 by Northroader

[BlueLightning]

Kevin,

 

I must say when you mentioned Barclays yesterday I did have thoughts of Duncan, it is possible I could make a loco like him, although I would struggle getting a motor in it!!!

 

and yes what would the likely gradients on the line be? It would be good to draw on your experience for that.

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

Bea4 in mind here that I still haven’t seen the plans and sections, so am working on the basis of maps and local knowledge to effectively design the route myself ........

 

The highest point would be where the line crossed the road to Kingstanding and Duddleswell near what is now Barnsgate Manor Vineyard. That road at its lowest point is on a ridge, somewhere about 550ft, and if we assume that the line was to run the 500ft contour, it will cross under the road in a deep cutting, or even a short tunnel.

 

From there, we can get to Nutley at c500ft contour, either using cut and fill to keep reasonable curves, or by squiggling about a lot.

 

Going down towards Groombridge, we probably need to head for the 200ft contour over a distance of about 6.5 miles (longer if we go squiggly), which gives about 1:115 average, but, to keep a constant 1:115 would involve a lot of earthwork, so it will probably be squiggly, with variable gradient, very like the W&LLR, which has significant stretches c1:30.

 

There is a quite tricky area in the Lye Green to Penn’s-in-the-Rocks locality, because we need to cross a watershed between four or five small streams that are all tributaries to the Medway, but wander off in different directions ..... it’s very broken and steep, so this bit is going to cost money, but eventually we can run down the valley of Mottsmill Stream to near Birchden Junction. This is a very sharply vee-section Valley, but we can just about create a shelf in the side of it.

 

At Glen Andred/Birchden, we have a choice.

 

The standard gauge LR was supposed to get across the LBSCR, presumably on a trestle viaduct, and regain c200ft on the other side of the valley ....... which is interesting, because there is a long c40ft high rock face there (Harrison’s Rocks) ...... I’d need to see the plans. Then head to Groombridge station, probably with a cutting through a spur that bumps up to c230ft.

 

I suggest that, as a narrow gauge line, we forget that last, expensive, bit, and terminate at Glen Andred, and get the LBSCR to erect a Motor Halt, like the one at High Rocks further on, for interchanging passengers (this would involve probably an elevated walkway and a load of stairs, because of the height we are at), and interchange goods to a new LBSCR siding by means of a timber Derrick.

 

All in all ....... the GWR engineer who was used to decry the line talked about it being far too steep at 1:40 as a maximum, and I’m sure it could be done at that.

 

For a standard gauge line, it would need quite a lot of earthwork to avoid utterly mad curves, but in 30 inch gauge it could include some fairly mad curves, reducing earthworks, but making it longer ....... it would take calculations, and a knowledge of contemporary costings, to balance between digging and squiggling.

 

As a SG line, it wouldn’t have been impossible, but it would have been a bit of a nightmare. At 30 inch gauge, with good modern locos (that again!), no problem at all, stuff like this was bread and butter in the Colonies.

 

Photo below shows the real survey in progress. I don’t think I’m infringing copyright, because my father wrote the book in which it is reproduced!

Edited May 17, 2018 by Nearholmer

[BlueLightning]

All very interesting! I know some of the areas you mention very well.

 

I think you are right about terminating at Glen Andred instead of Groombridge. It wouldn't make sense to have the extra expense to get over the LB&SCR line to come into Groombridge.

 

I have been meaning to get to Lewes to have a look at the plans for quite a while now, however life keeps getting in the way!!!

 

Gary

[sir douglas]

if youve got gradients and potentially heavy log trains why not go for larger locos, although not copying exact prototypes many builders had off the shelf designs, theres the Kalthrop idea of larger locos and all biogie stock on the Leek and manifold which was his test bed for the Barsi railway in india

 

L&M kitson "E.R.Kalthrop"

 

big brother "sir Alec" on the Barsi

 

bogie stock was from Leeds forge such these other examples 

 

1898 bogie for india

 

bogie van for the Kalka shimla

 

i think a suitable size if going in the Kalthrop direction would be the Hunslet 2-6-2's like WHR Russel or Sierra Leone

 

4-6-2 Natal government

[Andy Kirkham]

Alright, I promise to be quiet!

 

I think I must have been unduly influenced by ‘Duncan’ (a Barclay well tank) and ‘Rusty’(a R&H), giving me a taste for the catalogued industrials.

 

Eh?

 

That is clearly the original illustration by John T. Kenney (my favourite among Awdrey's artists), but the liveries have been changed. The steam locos should be  scarlet and Rusty black. 

 

A flagrant Orwellian falsification of history!

Edited May 17, 2018 by Andy Kirkham

[Nearholmer]

Blow me!

 

I’ve found one of those envelopes of old photos by H G Cassoulet.

 

These have pencilled on the back: NC&GLR May 1928. Down train near Glen Andred, locomotive 0&K No.1 ‘Primus’.

[Nearholmer]

And, Sir Douglas’s suggestion of the Calthrop model is a relevant one, although he has the batting order reversed. The LMVLR came after the Barsi, not before.

 

Calthrop’s advice is readily to hand to be consulted.

 

Expensive, though. Do we really think that the NC&G is going to generate enough traffic to need this sort of approach?