The Nutley, Crowborough and Groombridge Light Railway - Fictional Narrow Gauge in East Sussex

[BlueLightning]

Sir Douglas,

 

That stock is great!!! I do like a powerful looking engine! I am very fond of that Kitson at the top!

 

Kevin ,

 

Those photos are bloody marvellous!!! I'll have to replicate that train one day!!! Just on a much smaller scale!

 

and while I want to image that the railway can have anything and everything, I can't see it having been a massively busy line, so perhaps we should avoid more expensive types of loco.

 

Gary

Edited May 17, 2018 by BlueLightning

[Nearholmer]

Northroader

 

The Snailbeach Bagnall ‘Dennis’ and the W&L locos were very similar in size and capability, ‘Dennis’ being ever so slightly larger.

 

You are right about the Snailbeach gradient being ‘with the load’, so quite why they went for such a chunky loco, who knows. Maybe they had extension plans up their sleeves, because there were mines beyond the upper terminus, and, having walked it, the route to them would have been twisty or steep, or both.

 

I had a quick read, and it seems that the W&L locos were designed/specified by the Cambrian Railway’s engineer, which explains why Beyer Peacock were chosen to build them, in that the Cambrian and BP had a bit of a symbiotic relationship at this juncture. I’d still be willing to bet that a Bagnall would have been cheaper!

 

The W&L locos and wagons (initially unsprung) came in for a bit of a lambasting at the time, because they looked very much like things designed by someone who had no narrow gauge experience. I’m sure I’ve read a rant about them, written by Calthrop, in a letter to The Engineer.

 

Kevin

Edited May 17, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Continuing with what has rapidly become an obsession, I’ve been looking in more detail at the potential route in what I think is the most difficult locality, and boy, is it difficult!

 

First the topo map, onto which I’ve marked “don’t even think about it” locations, very prominent ‘landed’ properties with more or less landscaped grounds.

 

Then the same area on OS, which makes clear that we really need to go right past the back door of Penn’s in the Rocks.

 

The routes on the two don’t align perfectly, but you will get the general idea. Deep cutting in the dotted area, I think, so a lot of land-take to allow for the slopes.

 

Then a photo showing the house, and pretty much where the railway needs to go. This, bear in mind, is the former home of William Penn, of Pennsylvania fame, and is currently Grade 2 star listed. The grounds weren’t quite as fancied-up in 1900 as they are now, but this was no suburban semi.

 

This, I strongly suggest is why no railway got built.

[Nearholmer]

And, if you want to carry out a route survey, and happen to be nearby, Penns in the Rocks gardens are open (homemade teas served) this coming Sunday afternoon from 2 ‘til 6. This only happens once each year!

 

I have a feeling that this might not be the sort of affair that railway enthusiasts with a plan in mind would be welcome at.

[BlueLightning]

Very nice, and yes I can see problem with running past that particular door!!

 

Looking at the height map we appear to be running along a valley at that point, is there any chance of going round your "don't even think about it" location and running on the other side of the valley?? With a bridge further along if needed?

 

Gary

[BlueLightning]

And, if you want to carry out a route survey, and happen to be nearby, Penns in the Rocks gardens are open (homemade teas served) this coming Sunday afternoon from 2 ‘til 6. This only happens once each year!

 

I have a feeling that this might not be the sort of affair that railway enthusiasts with a plan in mind would be welcome at.

 

Something tells me if I turned up in my rather dirty 11 year old Transit van I would be sent away, open day or not!!

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

I think you might be right. And, my fifteen year old, and far from pristine car, would probably get turned away too.

 

It is a very posh sort of place.

 

As regards route, we are rather stuck, because if we move to the other side of the Mottsmill stream valley, we simply go past the front door rather than the back, and get the additional cost of a bridge further down the valley.

 

And, we might have to demolish a Classical Greek temple ...... although that might not have arrived until a bit later, when the the owner, The Duchess of Wellington, was busy having a passionate affair with posh garden designer Vita Sackville-West.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Regularity]

And, we might have to demolish a Classical Greek temple ...

Well now, that would be a bit of a folly, wouldn’t it?

[Nearholmer]

We're OK on the temple: it wasn't added until 1938, having been lifted and shifted from the garden of another house, where it was first erected in C18th.

 

I've ordered a copy of the detailed extract of the route plan that was prepared for this locality when the objections were considered in 1898 fro ESCC Records Office.

[BlueLightning]

Well I must admit I am glad we don't have to demolish the "temple".

 

It would be very interesting to see the actual route plan for the area, perhaps we are looking for a solution that was found c.120 years ago!

 

Gary

[Northroader]

And, if you want to carry out a route survey, and happen to be nearby, Penns in the Rocks gardens are open (homemade teas served) this coming Sunday afternoon from 2 ‘til 6. This only happens once each year!

I have a feeling that this might not be the sort of affair that railway enthusiasts with a plan in mind would be welcome at.

Spades and theodolites are not provided, take your own.

[Edwardian]

Gosh.  I was up in The Smoke yesterday and have had much catching up to do, but the last few pages have proved a fascinating read, it seems that this is a viable project.  We have a route and suitable motive power and stock identified.

 

There is only the small matter of building the model.

 

Penn Rocks looks likely to provide a superb backdrop.  Perhaps model the house to a smaller scale to achieve forced perspective, and the viewpoint restricted, from, say, a break in a tree-line or hedge immediately behind the line? 

 

Don't forget, the Quakers were as often as not Go Ahead Commercial Types - look at the Peases and the Stockton & Darlington - so I'm sure they'd be right behind a logging line. 

 

Gary, I hope you tackle it; another fascinating project to follow with great interest.

[Nearholmer]

The trouble is, Edwardian, that by our dateline, the Quaker residents had left. I haven't yet worked out who owned the property in 1898, the Wellesley family I think. [in 1898 it was the home of widow Pryce 'of independent means' and her adult children, one of whom was a JP. He inherited, and I think it passed to the Wellesleys on his death.]

 

The district had become 'gentrified' during the C18-19th.

 

What had been big, prosperous farmhouses, populated by sturdy yoemen, had been transformed into mega-comfy country houses, with highly landscaped grounds, as weekend retreats for big movers and shakers, who spent weekdays in London, or hidey-holes for artistic types from aristocratic backgrounds.

 

I think this might well form a cracking case example of highly influential 'establishment' figures coming into collision with local 'practical' figures, Mr Turner being one.

 

The plan was also opposed by the Open Spaces Society, because, up on the forest, it crossed common land. More 'artistic townies' getting in the way of locals making a decent living ...... to use inflammatory language.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Nearholmer

[RedGemAlchemist]

Narrow Gauge by Gary? This should be good  Definitely looks that way so far.
 

Hurrah!

 

He will be won over to the darker dark side... we got him to pre grouping, then LBSCR, then narrow gauge...

 

Now we need to get him into the pitch black side: 7mmNG!

I thought the dark side was freelancing?

Edited May 18, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[Nearholmer]

Moving to another of the 'don't go there' properties in the challenging part of the route, Park Grove, we have this summary, written in 1902:

 

"Park Grove was formerly known as Wigg's Farm and JohnWygg lived in the old farm-house in 1597. In 1730 it was owned by the Edwards famile, andin 1838 by Mr. James Patching, who sold the estate in 1874 to Mr. S. Hutchings. The present house which is known as "Park Grove" was built by him and he lived there until his death in 1886, when the property was purchased by Mr. George Greig, who enlarged the house. In 1888, Mr. Cecil Clarke bought the estate and added to the house. The year before last [1900] Mr. Frederick Harris took a lease of the property, and has since greatly enlarged the house and improved the grounds."

 

In 1897, it was tenanted to Colonel Snow (Retd, I think).

 

Fits the pattern of gentrification perfectly.

 

Two other properties to avoid:

 

- Buckhurst Park (landscape by Repton, gardens by Lutyens and Jekyll), owned by the Earl De La Warr, the Sackville family. So well connected that our survey team simply tugged their fore locks and moved on; and,

 

- Glen Andred, where we'd really like to site our terminus, "Glen Andred (which was completed in the year 1867 from plans by Mr Norman Shaw) was built for the late Mr E.W. Cooke, the artist, and purchased by the Reverend E.H. Boardman, … in 1880. The surroundings are most beautiful and the gounds are quite unique." now all Grade 2 star listed.

 

If we were to take a route through Buckhurst Park, which would help from a gradient viewpoint, we'd inevitably have to chop down some of 'The Five Hundred', which is the prototype for The Hundred Aker Wood of Winnie the Pooh fame (and contains two big ponds with excellent winter pike fishing!).

 

Not quite related to the railway that we are trying to plan, but interesting anyway, is that this little corner of Sussex was 'Fringes of the Bloomsbury Set' territory within ten years.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Nearholmer

[BlueLightning]

Thanks for all the comments guys!! This is proving to be a lot more interesting than I expected it to be!!

 

James, you should know you can't leave RMWeb for a day!!! That is rather a long time in the pre-grouping section!!

 

Red, I did freelance modelling right up until I got Oak Hill. So I have been to that section of the dark side!!

 

Kevin, to say your knowledge here is invaluable would be an understatement!!! I am very much enjoying learning the real world history of the locations on the potential route.

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

Well, here are two options for the lower-end, bringing together what we’ve looked at so far. The average gradient to get to from 200ft to c340ft elevation by either is a bit either side of 1:75, which is actually rather good. I still favour the eastern of the two routes, though, because I can see how to work the ‘cut and fill’, and get down the valley, whereas the western side has an awfully steep slope, into which it is going to be very difficult to cut a shelf.

 

I’ve dodged most of the ‘dont go there’ property, but, by the eastern route that I favour, am still in the garden of Penn’s in the Rocks.

 

I'm also beginning to see the road bridge over the LBSCR as a potential way onwards towards Groombridge ...... maybe a sort of long level crossing with the track embedded in the road ...... leading on to a cheap trestle viaduct, rather like the things on the Torrington and Marland, as a way across the Medway flood plain.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Nearholmer

[BlueLightning]

Not being familiar enough with those slopes, or particularly great at reading elevation maps I will have to take your word for it on the gradients. The only queston is which would be easier to overcome. The difficult earthworks, or the Penn's in the Rocks estate??

 

Gary

[Nearholmer]

Its a choice between a rock and a hard place.

 

Which could well be a large part of why it was never built!

 

You must go and look at the Mottsmill Valley to get a feel for why it would be a challenging place to put a railway, and why the north-west side is even harder than the other.

 

This is a view across the valley, from the NW side, looking SE (commons licensed, from geograph).

 

There's a tiny road, plus the stream down there, and we've got to add a railway.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Andy Hayter]

Of course if you want a locomotive designed for timber and freight movements over steep grades and tight curves then a Mallet design 0-6-6-0 articulated would be a good way to go

 

 

 

 

The two currently in service on the Vivarais are sharing a joint 200th year birthday this year.

 

 

And here is one I prepared (for the OH and her layout) earlier

Edited May 18, 2018 by Andy Hayter

[Nearholmer]

That has a lot of appeal.

 

Too big, though, so how about this baby one, operating on the W&LLR, which is very much this sort of railway.

 

http://www.unseensteam.co.uk/news/create-news-467

[BlueLightning]

Hopefully I will be able to at some point in the near future!

 

I had not imagined any particularly "big" locos on the line, but I do like the look of that! I could imagine it pulling a fair number of bolster wagons loaded up with timber!

 

Gary

 

EDIT: that little 0-4-4-0 does look very nice!!!

Edited May 18, 2018 by BlueLightning

[Northroader]

“Darling, who are these perfectly frightful people who are hacking their way through our shrubbery?”

“Feller told me you hired them to plan an extension to the rockery,”

“I never did anything of the kind, I’m putting heathers down there”

“Damme, what? Here, you! Beggar orff! And take your blasted telescope and stripey poles before I set the dogs on you!”

[RedGemAlchemist]

“Darling, who are these perfectly frightful people who are hacking their way through our shrubbery?”

“Feller told me you hired them to plan an extension to the rockery,”

“I never did anything of the kind, I’m putting heathers down there”

“Damme, what? Here, you! Beggar orff! And take your blasted telescope and stripey poles before I set the dogs on you!”

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni" at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land. Nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.

[Killian keane]

I think your George England is a rather logical choice for the South East of England, being situated in New Cross and having the closest rail connection with the LBSCR

Of course if you wanted to go completely off the rails (sorry!) you could do a narrow gauge version of the Titfield Thunderbolt