Late steam/early diesels in South Welsh Valleys

[TomJ]

More questions from me - I really hope there isn’t a question quota on here! Maybe one day someone will post a question which I know the answer to and I can repay the help....

 

Anyway I am idily pondering a layout set in the south welsh valleys in the early 1960s, an ex GWR branch with connection to the N.C.B. system. My question is when did regular BR steam end in the valleys and what replaced it? I know the 37s were famous for their work in the valleys but did they come straight after steam or was it hydraulics first? From another project I’ve a 22 and a hymek in green - would they have been seen in South Wales on coal? And finally was there much overlap between steam and diesel, could I get away with a bit of run down BR steam and some new diesels together?

 

It seems such simple questions but google has let me down.

 

I’m not averse at all to a large serving of ‘Rule 1’ as long as it’s vaguely plausible.

[Rivercider]

Searching on Flickr I typed 'Radyr 1963', and among the pictures is this steam and diesel shot

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/40479443692/in/photolist-qVpWXS-dSffRZ-24F2JjY-qRWUBk-rou16W-qSrEEj-aDFHr6-b8f6Ji-93MkP6-dvNVXJ-8Cih4B-aDKyhN-8Cm3pJ-8CebSY-8CefZQ-8ChKtT-8CkVyE-cXrWrA-jq9nep-8Toye7-e9ATie-jn9nS6-dREFop-8VXEKG-22rRh1u-8CkXxU-8Cm2iQ-8CkWCf-d4quP1-8ChGsv-8ChEyk-8CifJp-8Chz48-a7jP9e-YPVpHs-EtHsnF-cwSCds-dwrano-dwkBLX-dzc9j8

 

edit and Aberthaw in 1963

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/39069104960/in/album-72157624820751216/

 

cheers

Edited May 18, 2018 by Rivercider

[Andy Kirkham]

The absolute end of Western Region steam was the end of 1965, but I would think the transition period in the Valleys would have been over  the previous two years or so. I'm sure someone will know more exactly. The 37's were the immediate successors to steam and could certainly have been seen alongside steam. Hydraulics were almost never seen in the Valleys, with the exception of the Class 14's introduced in 1964, so they would have had only a brief overlap with steam.

[TomJ]

Thanks - that’s exactly the info I needed.

 

I wonder why there weren’t hydraulics in the Valleys? Were the lines still Western Region? I was expecting a situation like the West Country - where steam was replaced by hydraulics and the diesel-electrics only arrived to replace the hydraulics?

[TomJ]

Ps the photo of Radyr 1963 is one of those that looks just like a model! Although I’d be very pleased (and surprised) if mine looks like that....

[Andy Kirkham]

Thanks - that’s exactly the info I needed.

 

I wonder why there weren’t hydraulics in the Valleys? Were the lines still Western Region? I was expecting a situation like the West Country - where steam was replaced by hydraulics and the diesel-electrics only arrived to replace the hydraulics?

The Valleys were dieselised fairly late compared to the West Country, by which time I think it would have been decided that diesel-electrics were the way forward. 

[br2975]

Thanks - that’s exactly the info I needed.

I wonder why there weren’t hydraulics in the Valleys? Were the lines still Western Region? I was expecting a situation like the West Country - where steam was replaced by hydraulics and the diesel-electrics only arrived to replace the hydraulics?

.

A lot depends on how you define "the valleys".

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Western & Hymeks were a common sight in South Wales, with Warships too a lesser extent.

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All three could be seen at Radyr, with Hymeks occasionally working parcels as far as Pontypridd.

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In the "Western Valleys" of Monmouthshire, Westerns worked to Ebbw Vale, and the occasional Warship.

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Hymeks were less common in the Monmouthshire Valleys, but not unheard of.

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"Six eighters" (Cl.37) started to arrive in force in 1963, so there was a two year overlap with the last steam.

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A large percentage of the "nine fivers" (Cl.14) were based at Canton, but outbased at places like Radyr, Barry, Aberdare and Llantrisant but as they arrived steam was very much on its last legs in the area.

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Cl.22 were as scarce as hen's teeth anywhere West of the Severn Tunnel. I only know of three that ever made it to Cardiff. One For servicing in 1970, and the other two got to Barry on ballast workings from Parkend in 1971

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For inspiration, both factual and illustrated, you can do no better than apply to join the FB group "Railways in South Wales" but be warned, you need to get past the administrator(s).

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But, I can be bought !

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Brian R

Edited May 18, 2018 by br2975

[TomJ]

The administrators might find a request! I hope the answers are appropriate....

[br2975]

The administrators might find a request! I hope the answers are appropriate....

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It's a very good group, with very informative and helpful members.

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You will get all your answers there, trust me.

.I

Several RMwebbers are members.

 

Brian R

[br2975]

The administrators might find a request! I hope the answers are appropriate....

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Your membership request has been approved.

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Welcome aboard Tom.

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Brian R

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks - that’s exactly the info I needed.

 

I wonder why there weren’t hydraulics in the Valleys? Were the lines still Western Region? I was expecting a situation like the West Country - where steam was replaced by hydraulics and the diesel-electrics only arrived to replace the hydraulics?

 

Quite simple really - the WR conducted comparative trial s involving a Hymek and an EE Type borrowed from the ER and the EE Type 3 won - mainly on the basis of having extra weight and brake power compared with a Hymek.  But there were also reliability and power output considerations as well although in some respects as it had what amounted to 8 coupled wheels the Hymek did have some advantages when it came to adhesion but it had the disadvantage of a gear change from 1st to 2nd at just the wrong speed.  But the important factor on the Valleys was being able to stop loaded trains going downhill rather than keeping on the move empty trains going uphill (Ebbw Vale was of course something of an exception as it involved loaded trains going both uphill and downhill.)

 

So the WR decided - no doubt much to the happiness of the Director of M&EE at the newly emergent BRB  and in accordance with what the BTC had been starting to dictate - to order EE Type 3s for the South Wales Valleys freight dieselisation plus some of the D95XX DH 0-6-0s for the lighter trip turns (for which the 350ohp diesel shunters were too slow) while some of the 204 hp shunters were allocated for trip working further west because of their better gauge profile (and they were in any case faster than 350s).   Overall this added to the failure to confirm an order for a projected second tranche of Hymeks (which weren't actually officially allocated against any particular traffic and were in any case basically replacements for the mixed traffic 4-6-0 classes)  as sufficient EE Type 3s were ordered to cover some of the work which would have gone to them although in the overall scheme of things that made little difference to the size of the WR EE Type 3 fleet and definitely stopped the Hymek fleet increasing to an originally projected size of over 300 locos.   (The main reason for the Hymeks not increasing in numbers was also partly due to the decision to go for additional Type 4s well beyond the initially planned level).

 

By the time the Region got round to looking at dieselisation of South Wales Valleys it was well aware of the mechanical shortcomings of the NBL Type 2s plus in any event they lacked the necessary adhesion weight to handle the Valleys coal workings.  As an indication of the need for brake power a good illustration is that on some Valleys jobs an EE Type 3 could, and did, go through a complete set of brake blocks in less than week unless they were rotated through less arduous turns - but even then renewing brake blocks on a weekly basis was unavoidable on some jobs.

[TomJ]

Thanks for the add. It’s a fascinating page and I’ll delve into over the weekend

 

I only really know South Wales from the late 90s when the current MrsJ was studying at Cardiff uni. We were into climbing, walking and mountain biking so our jaunts often took us deep into the valleys. Even back then it was almost impossible to tell how industrial it had been just a few years earlier and I suspect even more so now. But her flat overlooked the Cardiff to Caerphilly line so I got to see 37s on the Rymney trains and the odd coal train. By the end of the two years all the (rather glamorous) girls who shared a flat with her had become almost trainspotters!

 

And as my N gauge china clay layout slowly plods towards completion I was looking for my next project. I realised I have a few pannier tanks and a prairie and lots of open and mineral wagons and my thoughts turned to those trips cycling on disused lines in the valleys.....

Edited May 18, 2018 by TomJ

[br2975]

And as my N gauge china clay layout slowly plods towards completion I was looking for my next project. I realised I have a few pannier tanks and a prairie and lots of open and mineral wagons and my thoughts turned to those trips cycling on disused lines in the valleys.....

 

There are too few models of the South Wales valleys, in any era, so another layout would boost any interest in an area that despite the intense railway activity over the years, has not attracted the attention of many modellers.

.

[Fat Controller]

More questions from me - I really hope there isn’t a question quota on here! Maybe one day someone will post a question which I know the answer to and I can repay the help....

 

Anyway I am idily pondering a layout set in the south welsh valleys in the early 1960s, an ex GWR branch with connection to the N.C.B. system. My question is when did regular BR steam end in the valleys and what replaced it? I know the 37s were famous for their work in the valleys but did they come straight after steam or was it hydraulics first? From another project I’ve a 22 and a hymek in green - would they have been seen in South Wales on coal? And finally was there much overlap between steam and diesel, could I get away with a bit of run down BR steam and some new diesels together?

 

It seems such simple questions but google has let me down.

 

I’m not averse at all to a large serving of ‘Rule 1’ as long as it’s vaguely plausible.

The valley workings went over to EE Type 3 haulage from 1963/4; the hydraulics didn't make many incursions into the valleys proper, though they were commonplace along the coast. The problem wasn't so much hauling the trains, but stopping them at the bottom. The 'six-eighters' had more brake force than the lighter hydraulics, but even they were sometimes overpowered by their trains- I saw at least three runaways on the L&MMR during my childhood.

Hymecs, along with Warships and Westerns, were to be seen on coal workings from the yards at the coastal ends of the Valleys (Llandilo Jct, Briton Ferry, Margam, Llantrisant, Radyr etc) towards England. I can't say I ever heard of any NBL Type 2 on these; they did sometimes turn up at STJ with workings from the Forest of Dean.

As to steam and diesels working together; they did, for a brief period from 1963 to 1965. I have recently seen photos of brand-new EE Type 3s at Llanelly shed, the last active steam depot in South Wales, taken in 1963. At that time, they'd be seen beside 16xx and 57xx Panniers, 66xx 0-6-2ts and even Castles.

[corneliuslundie]

Plug: You may find it worth joining the Welsh Railways Research Circle for info on Welsh railways. It is a very friendly outfit. 

Jonathan

[Penrhos1920]

Don't forget to read this topic http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/132193-class-116-diesel-multiple-units/&do=findComment&comment=3083634 all about the dmus that were introduced to the valleys. Most GWR built passenger coaches that had been used in the valleys were condemned by 1962.

[davepen]

As an indication of the need for brake power.

 

In the 60's/70s my Gran used to live overlooking, what is now, Fairwater station on the City line.  Note sure if it was deliberate, but many of the full wagons used to clank their brakes.  We used to live in a new (1968) house in Tonteg where the TVR Llantrisant branch crossed over the Barry Railway.  There was a cast sign saying all DOWN trains, to Tonteg BR or down to the TVR mainline had to STOP to pin their brakes before proceeding. Often wondered if the brakes were meant to be pinned down.

[Norton961]

Don’t forget that some of the NCB collieries not only had the usual Industrials ( the Horby Peckett would look nice) but a number of ex WR Pannier tanks and one of them was re painted a fetching green livery. I will see if I can dig out some photos.

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

In the 60's/70s my Gran used to live overlooking, what is now, Fairwater station on the City line.  Note sure if it was deliberate, but many of the full wagons used to clank their brakes.  We used to live in a new (1968) house in Tonteg where the TVR Llantrisant branch crossed over the Barry Railway.  There was a cast sign saying all DOWN trains, to Tonteg BR or down to the TVR mainline had to STOP to pin their brakes before proceeding. Often wondered if the brakes were meant to be pinned down.

 

There was a steep gradient in the general vicinity of Waterhall Jcn which might have required brakes to be pinned down.

 

NB A 'steep' gradient means one which is steeper than 1 in 260 so it might not necessarily be steep enough to require brakes to be pinned down.

[The Johnster]

Don’t forget that some of the NCB collieries not only had the usual Industrials ( the Horby Peckett would look nice) but a number of ex WR Pannier tanks and one of them was re painted a fetching green livery. I will see if I can dig out some photos.

 

David

 

7754

[The Johnster]

Steam finished in the Cardiff Valleys at the end of August 1965; East Dock servicing point in Cardiff closed from this date as well but it's facilities may have been used by visiting locos after this for the ensuing 6 months.  Any WR steam after the start of 1966 was at LMR depots.  Radyr, Ebbw Jc., Aberbeeg, Barry, and Llantrisant all closed to steam on 31/8/65, though stock movements were still taking place at Radyr using steam locos within the shed confines during the following week.  

 

The daily Cardiff-Pontypridd parcels was a regular Hymek turn, and I once took a train of road salt in wooden opens to Aber Jc with one in the early 70s, but hydraulics were rare in the valleys apart from the short-lived D95xx which replaced the equally short lived 94xx panniers.  Excursions took type 4 power to Treherbert, Merthyr, and Rhymney (as we spelled it then) but were almost always Class 47.  This was understandable for trains going off region, but there was a weight restriction at Queen Street bridge in Cardiff until it was renewed in, I think, 1971, with the current concrete structure, and this prevented the type 4s being used on any trains that were routed this way; trains destined upline used the Radyr Quarry line and avoided it. 

 

None of which explained why Westerns were so unpopular on these trains!  They would penetrate as far as Radyr, though,  as would Class 45/6, with freight of all sorts but mostly coal or coke.

[br2975]

"Westerns" didn't seem to appear at Radyr on a semi-regular basis until the reorganisation of the South Wales freight services in the late 1960s when two such machines were dedicated to shuttle as required between Jersey Marine, Margam and Severn Tunnel Junction with the occasional side job to Radyr.

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Following that they were quite common on 'House Coal Concentration' trains from Radyr to places like West Drayton, Acton, Willesden, Norwood Jct etc. These were 'Q' paths and originated at either Jersey Marine or Radyr.

 

Two "Westerns" had made it past Radyr when H.M. visited Aberfan, following the disaster in October 1966. One loco hauled 'The Grove' whilst the second followed light, to Merthyr.

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In addition, at least one more worked through the Rhondda Tunnel on diverted services, when the SWML was closed following the fatal Bridgend collision that involved D6983 and a Brush Type 4.

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As for 'Peaks' - they were cleared to Bargoed Pits, via the 'Big Hill' between Taffs Well / Walnut Tree Jct and Aber Jct.

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Bob Masterman captured one such loco on film, heading north between Ystrad Mynach and Hengoed with sixteen tonners circa 1966.

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With the advent of 'Mystery Excurisons' in the very late 1960s / early 1970s, many such trains started from Treherbert and Rhymney (few, if any, started from Merthyr - a DMU connecting service was usually laid on) but were invariably Cl.47 hauled.

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My surviving notes start from 1970-1971, recording my sightings of trains to and from Radyr near Waterhall Jct. via what is now the City Line and which include the following classes NCB Hunslet 18" 0-6-0ST, NCB 57xx 0-6-0PT 7754, then Cl.03, 08, 11, 14, 20, 25, 33, 35, 37, 40, 42, 45, 46, 47, 50, 52, 56, 60, 66, to name but a few off the top of my head and leaving out such things as Hastings Units, 4-REP driving cars etc.

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Brian R

Edited May 21, 2018 by br2975

[The Johnster]

Diversion for SWML trains if there was a blockage between Bridgend and Llanharan would normally have been via the Vale of Glamorgan, no stranger to Westerns, but I assume that the landslide (following a retaining wall failure after very heavy rain) and collision between Thor and D6983 fouled the junction at Bridgend.  It was in the cutting just to the east of the station. 

 

Loco biodiversity on the Radyr Quarry line was phenomenal for a local goods route (admittedly passenger rated and absolute block), and in late steam days mush have featured just about any WR allocated type with the usual double red and 1361/6 exceptions, along with a good bit of LMS input, as well as the usual diesel types of the day.  I recall watching a 9F getting under way from Quarry with a very heavy train of 16T minerals in about 1964 from the lane alongside the river bank that led to the shed entrance; it was one of my first visits to the shed by bicycle.  It took a long time to draw out perhaps 60 wagons to the point where the driver could see the brake van and get the 'tip' from the guard; then he opened up and blew a hole in the sky; brilliant!

 

Rugby excursions from up line were usually stabled in the reception roads at Radyr Quarry (through roads to the Junction), with the loco of one train coupling to the train ahead of it so that only the first loco had to run around to power the last arrived train out.  Downline trains used the Clarence Road branch until it closed in 1969, and the 'Electric Loop' at Newtown after that.  Nearly all these trains featured 47s, and watching the chaos at Cardiff General after a big game was always good fun as the panel tried to get rid of them as quickly as possible just as the Saturday evening peak was starting...

 

The returning up line traffic had to come off the North Curve at Canton, a single line which helped nobody, and cross the layout to attain the up main, while the downline traffic had to come off the Riverside platforms 8 and 9.  A good few of these would be send over the Vale of Glamorgan to save blocking the layout at Cardiff West.  If Wales had won, which we usually did in those days, the atmosphere would be wonderful as well.

Edited May 21, 2018 by The Johnster

[Norton961]

Thought I would post a few photos of ex GW Pannier tanks in industrial use in S Wales.

 

 

In earlier years (I think 1960) the NCB hired in some ex LNWR Coal Tanks for a short period to shunt a number of Collieries.

 

David

[The Johnster]

Ah, memories.