Craftsman 0-4-4T LMS 1P Kit build

[ianLMS]

Good morning all,

I have recently acquired (from a felow RMWebber) a Craftsman Midland 0-4-4T 1P loco kit complete with high level gearbox, motor and Romford wheels. I intend to commence building it in the next few weeks and am starting to plan it out and make sure I have everything I need before I get started (Poppy's chassis jig, wheel tool, B2B guage etc).

 

I watched a You-Tube video by "the loco builder" and he mentioned having to isolate the chassis from the wheels as he uses DCC. I intend to fit a chip into the loco and run it DCC as well.

 

Question: I have the driving wheels but the seller believes they are one pair insulated and one pair non-insulated. Does this make a difference? Do I need to isolate the non-insulated wheels from the chassis and if so, can you recommend the best option? or do I need to buy a new set of Insulated wheels?

 

I intend the post this in the DCC question page as well.

 

Thank you

Ian

Edited May 25, 2018 by ianLMS

[Jub45565]

I think the point about isolated chassis' is that if everything is isolated to start with, then any 1 wheel touching metal (frame, brakegear, etc) isn't going to cause a short. If one side is permanently shorted, then any contact on the other half will cause a short. I'm not sure why this is being sold as a DCC specific thing though?

 

To be honest I would ditch the chassis and use the Rumney Models option - which is designed for 00, EM or P4 building & includes a representation of the valvegear, plus is sprung so runs better & will have fewer pickup issues. I must admit to not being a completely innocent bystander though...

[Izzy]

 Unless the chassis etch has been re-done since I made a few of these the problem is that it's has cut-outs to take the 'standard fitment' X04 type motor common when the kit was first produced and this weakens it at it's narrowest point near the bogie. I would second the advice to replace it with another as I would to use all-insulated wheels. Saves all the hassle with insulating the chassis from the body since you are dealing with all-metal parts.

 

I would also suggest you consider fixing the bogie pivot point/ride height to prevent the chassis being 'rear-end heavy' as is common with some 0-4-2/0-4-4 models. It might be the replacement chassis suggested does this. I also fitted split-axle current collection to the bogies on my ones, but as you are going to use DCC I would say fitting a stay-alive unit should be considered as part of the basic package to aid reliable running.

 

Izzy

[ianLMS]

Very little to report right now - I placed an order with Markits for the insulated wheels, axle nut screwdriver and some other bits and bobs on 25th May. They were waiting for some stock to come in so they only posted them today. I hope to start the build in a couple of weeks once I have got over some life commitments which get in the way! 

 

The seller of the kit has already given me some great advice and tech drawings to deal with the chassis issue as I wont be using the X04 motor, and he recommended a location for the motor/gearbox/flywheel to help with the counter-balance issue. I have a stay-alive so hopefully I will find space to fit that in as well.

 

Looking forward to it!

 

Ian

[ROSSPOP]

Hi Ian

 

There is a lot of confusing clap trap about DCC

 

Make your loco as you would for normal DC and if it runs thoroughly without shorting out anywhere it will run just as well on DCC

 

Some would say you should`nt have a `live` chassis in DCC ( that`s just one side of insulated axles) but I have one  in 7mm and it runs fine.

 

If any one builds a chassis with a shorting out problem and then fits a decoder they will have an expensive problem.....simples.

 

Make sure you set up your decoder on the programming track setting and it will let you know if there is a problem before you can continue.

 

Quality decoders (Zimo and ESU) are mostly fail safe if you read the instructions.

 

 

Enjoy the Build

 

John

Edited June 15, 2018 by ROSSPOP

[ianLMS]

Thats a very nice looking loco you have there and thank you for the advice!

 

Ian

[ianLMS]

I am finally in a position to commence the build of the Craftsman LMS 1P kit. The Romford insulated wheels and axle nut tool have been safely delivered and I have immersed myself in the instruction sheet. I have constructed the High Level Gearbox and tested it. There is a slight clicking from the gears, so I need to investigate the alignment. It only happens one way though so it might be a bit of flash i missed. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by ianLMS

[ianLMS]

So, I encountered my first issue through lack of experience/planning. On following the instructions, I failed to spot the impact using a different gearbox/motor would have on the chassis. The kit calls for the X04 motor/gearbox arrangement and I have the High Level Gearbox/Mashima motor arrangement (previous owner decided it was a better option - with flywheel).

 

The instructions stated that I needed to fit strengthening panels above and around the driving wheel bearing and a spacer to strengthen the two sides. What I failed to do was determine the width of the High Level arrangement before going mad and fitting all the strengtheners. The result is that I had to un-solder and grind out the spacers. and cut a larger slot in the underframe to accept the bottom of the gearbox.

 

So far though, it hasnt impacted anything I can can build in addidtional strength as required.

 

Hopefully I will be more done over the weekend.

 

Ian

[ianLMS]

Here is the progress I have made so far on the chassis. After sorting the earlier issue, I managed to get the gearbox in and the axles to make sure it all lines up before painting. One thing I did find was that the Romford Wheels did not want to sit straight on the axle and there is a fair bit of movement even with the axles nuts being tighted right up. The wheels didnt go onto the axles that easy either so needed to be tapped home. Is that normal?

 

I assume the area that needs "filling in" thats mentioned earlier is the angled area behind the gearbox? I noted that when I put the footplate down, there is quite a gap. I will also need to over-come body removal aspect when I have fitted the boiler. I assume I will just cut out a section in the bottom of the boiler tube to allow the body to slip over the motor/flywheel?

Edited July 2, 2018 by ianLMS

[MarkC]

Here is the progress I have made so far on the chassis. After sorting the earlier issue, I managed to get the gearbox in and the axles to make sure it all lines up before painting. One thing I did find was that the Romford Wheels did not want to sit straight on the axle and there is a fair bit of movement even with the axles nuts being tighted right up. The wheels didnt go onto the axles that easy either so needed to be tapped home. Is that normal?

 

I assume the area that needs "filling in" thats mentioned earlier is the angled area behind the gearbox? I noted that when I put the footplate down, there is quite a gap. I will also need to over-come body removal aspect when I have fitted the boiler. I assume I will just cut out a section in the bottom of the boiler tube to allow the body to slip over the motor/flywheel?

Your issue with the Romford wheels not fitting to the axles easily is not uncommon, if there's the tiniest burr or raised edge on the squares of either the wheel or axle. It's been discussed elsewhere; just a very light touch of a needle file usually sorts that out. Are the wheels running true, now that you've tightened up the axle nuts? I'm presuming that when you talk about there being a lot of movement, you're talking about side to side movement in the frames? If so, you'll need to fit spacer washers between the wheels and bearings to limit it.

 

Looking at the motor/gearbox assembly, you shouldn't have any 'balancing' problems which are often found with 0-4-4Ts, especially if you can get some more weight into the boiler at the front once everything else is assembled. Lead pieces secured with epoxy - not PVA - works for me. If you can tilt the motor/gearbox assembly up a little, that will minimise the amount of material you will have to cut from the boiler skirt. That's quite a large motor/flywheel assembly you're using, which is good for haulage, but does make installation a little more tricky. A light spring to press the bogie down gently, even if you have got the weight well forward on the rest of the model, will help with keeping it on the track properly when running bunker first. I've built a couple of these kits, as well as other 0-4-4Ts, including a Jidenco/Falcon Brass Kirtley 0-4-4T, and this has worked well for me.

 

Closing off the cutout for the original motor can be done once you have assembled the running plate and arranged how you are securing it to the frames. IIRC it's a slot arrangement at the rear, and one bolt at the front?

 

Keep going though - it's looking  fine, and they do build up into nice models.

 

Mark

Edited July 3, 2018 by MarkC

[ROSSPOP]

Looking good

 

But you mention early on that you intend to go DCC

 

Quality decoders have `electronic `flywheels` so why are you bothering with 1960`s technology ?????

 

cheers

 

John

[ianLMS]

Thank you both for you comments and guidance and have taken much into account. 

 

In the end, I removed the flywheel as it impeded attaching and removing the body. This also negated the need to remove chunks from the boiler. I had installed a cab floor into the body, but had to remove it again as it prevented the body from sitting straight. I removed a section of footplate under the coal bunker as the slot fixing point wouldnt work with the new motor arrangement. It holds tight with just the front mounting screw.

 

I very gently filed the openings on the Romford wheels and they seem to sit much better now. Not had chance for a full test yet, but it runs ok on DC. There is plenty of space behind the gearbox for the DCC chip which is good. 

 

I have found though that between the side tanks and boiler there is a gap,. The mounting points for the tanks are set on the footplate and the boiler can only be that size as you need to solder the seam and make if fit the smoke and fire box. Perhaps an error on my part, or mayby thats the way it is? What would be best to fill the gaps? The widest gap is around 2-3mm at the front of the tanks? I cannot use solder to fill the gap as it will melt the white metal parts. I am thinking Epoxy "Metal" adhesive, or Humbrol Filler? 

 

Anyway, here are a couple of pics of progress. I should have doen a better job on the brake linkeage and it looks like the dome is leaning a little but so far I am reasonably happy with progress on my first ever loco build.

 

[ROSSPOP]

Very nice Ian,

 

The Craftsman 1P kit has always been a favourite of mine on and off for the past 30 years.and  I was sad to let mine go.(so I replaced with a 7mm version)

 

Check out Lanarkshire Models and Supplies website for 4mm replacement details , buffers and vac pipes etc......  I have a thing about detailing buffer beams properly if you can.

 

Cheers

 

John

[ianLMS]

Very nice Ian,

 

The Craftsman 1P kit has always been a favourite of mine on and off for the past 30 years.and  I was sad to let mine go.(so I replaced with a 7mm version)

 

Check out Lanarkshire Models and Supplies website for 4mm replacement details , buffers and vac pipes etc......  I have a thing about detailing buffer beams properly if you can.

 

Cheers

 

John

Thanks John - I have been really pleased with the kit so far.

 

I have some Alan Gibson brass sprung buffers and plenty of hoses/screw links to dress up the buffer beam. They break easy so i'm holding off fitting them until I have finished the main parts and have painted the body. 

 

I am having difficulty narrowing down the exact class type for this particular model but I think it is the Class 1833 (based on my search via Wikipedia) or it could be a 2228. The pictures of the various classes show subtle differences but not enough to be accurate and it doesnt show a list of models which had the Belpaire fireboxes installed. The Bachmann model is based on the 1532 class which has a different firebox/top vent fitted.  

 

Lets play "spot the difference"

 

Pic 1 is a Class 1833

Pic 2 is a Class 2228 (with condenser fitted)

Pic 3 is the Bachmann LMS version - Class 1532

Edited July 9, 2018 by ianLMS

[ROSSPOP]

duplicate

Edited July 9, 2018 by ROSSPOP

[ianLMS]

Last night I managed to fill the gaps between the tanks and the boiler using a small piece of brass soldered under the gap, and then filled with 70 degree solder melted with the hot air gun.

 

I also fitted the handrails, however, they dont line up as per the prototype. The side of the smoke box where the holes are pre-drilled is too low so when the hand rail is fitted straight, the point where it attaches to the tank off by quite a bit. The fix = either re-position the handrail in a higher position or fit the handrail at an angle. I think I will leave it as it is and live with it!

 

I tried to test the loco on the track, but for some reason the decoder would not programme. I checked the continuity before hand to make sure they were no shorts and everything was fine. If I can't fathom it out, I will remove the chip, re-test on analogue (previously ran fine) and re-fit a new chip (in case I fried the other one). It could also be a mistake I made in the programming process, so will check that as well. Even a factory reset didnt seem to want to work.

Edited July 11, 2018 by ianLMS

[Michael Edge]

Normal MR practice was to take the boiler cladding across the tank top with a curve in the area where you have a gap.

[ROSSPOP]

Normal MR practice was to take the boiler cladding across the tank top with a curve in the area where you have a gap.

 

 

Not sure about the accuracy of that one................................

 

 

 

John

[ianLMS]

Well, I am almost at the point where the body can be painted. I have added on a few extra bits, cleaned it up with a wire brush on a multi-tool, and a final cleaning with viakal, followed by soda crystals and a good rinse. I have Precision Paints Etching Primer ready to go, and will finish it off with a coat of black.

 

Unfortunately, after track testing, and programming the decoder, it is a very poor runner. Very jerky and stops after an inch or two, after which it wont respond. Put it back on the programming track, and re-programming is the onyl way to get it to respond again. I have added in lead shot tot he chassis to help weigh it down, but it seems I have to press down very hard to get it to respond.

 

I have 2 pick ups on each wheel, so 8 in total using the DCC Concepts ready made pick ups plus a scratch built version using brass rod and copper clad board. 

 

Using it in analogue mode, I can touch the wires to the wheels, and the motor runs no problem and the wheels turn just fine. I need to wire up a piece of test track using analogue to see if the wheels and pick ups are working as they should.

 

Any ideas?

Edited July 16, 2018 by ianLMS

[ROSSPOP]

Hi Ian

 

Sounds to me you have pickup issues as DCC is exceptionally sensitive .

 

Keep it all simple.

 

I use phosphur bronze strip trimmed and shaped with a slitting disc.and then `dimpled` at the working end.

 

 

 

I find using phosphur bronze strip promotes very strong contact with the wheel tread with minimal `braking` effect.

 

 

 

 

you can then use gloss black paint as insulation.

 

 

 

john

 

[ianLMS]

Shimples!! I have just ordered some phospher strip so will see how I get on. On the other forum, we beleive it could also be a mechanical issue with the gearbox / wheels out of alignment causing sufficient drag to stop the motor and the chip cuts out.

[ianLMS]

I spent yesterday stripping the motor/gearbox/chassis down, cleaning everything up, fettling all the parts and re-aligning everything. This removed all of the tight spots and allowed for much freer running. I bench tested the bearbox first, than added a wheel, then added it to the chassis, then added the connecting rods, each time running it using the DCC chip connected directly to the controller (disconnected layout and ran seperate feed terminated in two isolated lugs). I then fitted the pick-ups, and added the new phospher bronze pick-up and tested it by holding the power cables to the wheels. All good! I then put it on the track - it ran ok again holding power to the wheels. I then added the brake gear, reconnected the layout track to the controller and it was ok for a few seconds, then the same issue re-appeared.

 

I removed all of the brak egear again, and again, same problem. I then tested it on the rolling road, again, disconnecting the layout and plugging in the power cables. All good. 

 

So, I can only assume that the track isnt carrying the signal well enough to the decoder. Frustrating as I have no issues with my other DCC loco's, all fitted with the same chip and tested perfectly on the same bit of track. 

[ROSSPOP]

Hi Again Ian,

 

Assuming that you hav`nt fitted any axle springing, have you checked that you hav`nt got a slightly twisted chassis( sometimes made worse when attaching to the body)

 

I`m sure you have checked the chassis length ways by eye to make sure the axles are all aligned....

 

 

John

[hayfield]

Hi Again Ian,

 

Assuming that you hav`nt fitted any axle springing, have you checked that you hav`nt got a slightly twisted chassis( sometimes made worse when attaching to the body)

 

I`m sure you have checked the chassis length ways by eye to make sure the axles are all aligned....

 

 

John

 

 

John

 

I have had this issue with a 0 gauge etched kit built loco, as soon as I tightened the chassis to the body it twisted the chassis. in this case pickup was not the issue but derailing, easing off the bolt solved the problem (must put a piece of shim between the two)

[ianLMS]

Hi Again Ian,

 

Assuming that you hav`nt fitted any axle springing, have you checked that you hav`nt got a slightly twisted chassis( sometimes made worse when attaching to the body)

 

I`m sure you have checked the chassis length ways by eye to make sure the axles are all aligned....

 

 

John

Afternoon John. I havent put any sprung suspension in. I checked how all 4 wheels were sitting on a ceramic tile and everything looked straight and level. I will check again to see if there is anything else preventing good contact. I have two sets of pick ups on the leading wheel and one set of pick ups on the driving wheel, so if one wheel isnt touching, it should still pick up on the others. I will keep fiddling. If it fails to operate, I may revert to one of the suggestions above and purchase a Rumney chassis kit (with sprung suspension) and try again.