Greater Anglia's Stadler Flirt - Class 745 & 755

[Grovenor]

On 28/12/2019 at 12:59, tgk300 said:

I have found the page in which I got the idea of the total 4 car unit weight being 163.4 tonnes. 

This page states it on post no. 3723 https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/abellio-greater-anglia-class-755s-regional-trains.148431/page-125 

 

They state that the total unit weight is 163.4 according to the plate, but adding up all the vehicle weight plates, 112.2 tonnes is stated. Someone else has suggested that the 112.2 does not include the weight of the four Jacob bogies. 163.4 - 112.2 is 51.2. That would mean that each Jacob bogie weighs 12.8 tonne when connected to the unit. It amazes me that Stadler can make a unit like this only weigh 112.2 tonnes, to me it seems impossible. 

To me the vehicle weights look reasonable for a modern lntegral design, the 163t quoted for the train seems excessive, and 6 bogies should not weigh 50t even if they are, for some reason, not included in the car weights.

Comparable figures for a 3car set would be interesting, should reduce by 1 intermediate car body, one trailer bogie and two engines.

Rgds

Edited December 29, 2019 by Grovenor

[s182ggu]

2 hours ago, russ p said:

The tanks were smaller than first planned to keep the weight down so they can run at SP speeds

Hi Russ

Can you define ‘SP speeds’ please for the uninitiated?

[tgk300]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I would be surprised, and in fact positively alarmed, if the required amount of fuel and therefore the minimum amount be carried after fuelling was not included in the spec for these trains.  However it would obviously have had to be based on the anticipated fuel consumption on the diagrams they would be working plus some margin for perturbations.  If that didn't work out as specified for whatever reason then there should  be the very simple alternative of knowing the actual mileage they can run between fuelling and diagramming them accordingly  - all of that is a very basic part of train planning.

Do you know what the tank capacity of a 4 car unit is? I would imagine that GA were aware of the fuelling issue during the design process but chose to live with it as the increased hassle may of been offset by other benefits. 

[tgk300]

3 hours ago, Grovenor said:

To me the vehicle weights look reasonable for a modern lntegral design, the 163t quoted for the train seems excessive, and 6 bogies should not weigh 50t even if they are, for some reason, not included in the car weights.

Comparable figures for a 3car set would be interesting, should reduce by 1 intermediate car body, one trailer bogie and two engines.

Rgds

I thought that 163.4 tonne was a slight bit on the heavy side, but apparently that’s what’s on the weight plate. I could see 6 bogies weighing 50 tonne as don’t forget that four are Jacob bogies and the other two have traction equipment in.  112.2 does seem a little light though so I don’t really know what it believe. 
 

I would be very great full of anyone local could snap a photo of the weight plates on all 5 cars on a 4 car unit and see what the total weight as one of them will have it listed. 

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, s182ggu said:

Hi Russ

Can you define ‘SP speeds’ please for the uninitiated?

Hi Graham,

 

Sprinter speeds, originally for the Class 15x family when they were introduced as they had better brakes. Not sure if they officially apply to other units now.

 

Simon

[Satan's Goldfish]

Out of interest, what is the procedure to get passengers to Sheringham if the service is turned around early at Cromer? Does GA pay for taxis from Cromer?

[Pete 75C]

8 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Out of interest, what is the procedure to get passengers to Sheringham if the service is turned around early at Cromer? Does GA pay for taxis from Cromer?

 

Your ticket will be valid on Sanders buses but in practise, the Sanders drivers won't know there's been a problem and they have been known to want you to pay again. People have got taxis and then successfully claimed from GA but the whole thing is very disorganised. The "This train will terminate at Cromer" announcement is usually met with dread.

[russ p]

34 minutes ago, St. Simon said:

Hi Graham,

 

Sprinter speeds, originally for the Class 15x family when they were introduced as they had better brakes. Not sure if they officially apply to other units now.

 

Simon

Also 170 and I believe the other turbos and now these anglia units

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

Hi Graham,

 

Sprinter speeds, originally for the Class 15x family when they were introduced as they had better brakes. Not sure if they officially apply to other units now.

 

Simon

Speed limits are a right laugh. The sectional appendix states that the  Chiltern line has differential speed limits where the higher speed is allowed for loco hauled mk3s or sprinter units without a cab gangway. (I assume the 16x count as sprinters), and there's a similar story on the GE.

[s182ggu]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

Hi Graham,

 

Sprinter speeds, originally for the Class 15x family when they were introduced as they had better brakes. Not sure if they officially apply to other units now.

 

Simon

Thanks Simon.

 

Cheers

Graham

[tgk300]

So are the Class 755/3 and 755/4 units allowed to run to these “sprinter differentials”? 

[russ p]

8 hours ago, tgk300 said:

So are the Class 755/3 and 755/4 units allowed to run to these “sprinter differentials”? 

Yes

[dmustu]

14 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Speed limits are a right laugh. The sectional appendix states that the  Chiltern line has differential speed limits where the higher speed is allowed for loco hauled mk3s or sprinter units without a cab gangway. (I assume the 16x count as sprinters), and there's a similar story on the GE.

It's not a laugh, it's down to signal sighting. Units with gangway's in the front end have a limited view, compared with one's that don't. Because of that, speed is restricted on these in some locations so that the minimum sighting time for signalling can be achieved.

[Zomboid]

I figured that out, it's just a memorable thing from the SA. shows how differential speed limits can be all over the place.

On the GE it says about "higher speed permitted for the following trains" and lists class 90 lhcs and a bunch of units (including 745 & 755), so there's really no generic approach to these things.

[russ p]

22 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I figured that out, it's just a memorable thing from the SA. shows how differential speed limits can be all over the place.

On the GE it says about "higher speed permitted for the following trains" and lists class 90 lhcs and a bunch of units (including 745 & 755), so there's really no generic approach to these things.

 

Since privatisation differential speeds have been a mess .

There is one that's in the sectional appendix for Syston North curve 15mph instead of 10 for 15x trains but not 170s

[richardw1970]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

Since privatisation differential speeds have been a mess .

Very true, when Transpenine got their new 185's they were too heavy to run at SP speeds so are slower on some routes than the 158's they replaced.

[Classsix T]

19 hours ago, tgk300 said:

I thought that 163.4 tonne was a slight bit on the heavy side, but apparently that’s what’s on the weight plate. I could see 6 bogies weighing 50 tonne as don’t forget that four are Jacob bogies and the other two have traction equipment in.  112.2 does seem a little light though so I don’t really know what it believe. 
 

I would be very great full of anyone local could snap a photo of the weight plates on all 5 cars on a 4 car unit and see what the total weight as one of them will have it listed. 

[tgk300]

18 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

 

Thank you very much, I appreciate you taking the time to take this photograph.

 

So the total unit weight is 163.4 tonne and not 112.2. Confusing. 

[Classsix T]

One of the coaches, the one with the lavs, is a featherweight 16t. Much lighter than any of the others IIRC. 

I'm in Ipswich all afternoon, if I can get the other spec plates (and not feel self conscious about it!) I will. 

C6T. 

[tgk300]

With on 36 tonne on the four driving axles, and a total weight of 163.4 I would imagine that with all that power it would have some serious wheelslip on other routes such as my local one in poor weather. Tonne (whcih is what I assume to be on the driving axles) out of 163.4 is only 22%, not great for a modern high performanmce unit. It also decreses their power to weight from 22.9hp tonne (2575hp / 112.2), down to a still very impressive 15.8 (2575 hp / 163.4). 

[tgk300]

4 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

One of the coaches, the one with the lavs, is a featherweight 16t. Much lighter than any of the others IIRC. 

I'm in Ipswich all afternoon, if I can get the other spec plates (and not feel self conscious about it!) I will. 

C6T. 

16 tonne is light, that cannot include the bogies at that weight. The numbers on this unit just don't add up, and again, thank you for taking the time to help. 

[great central]

4 cars and only 202 seats? A 156 2 car has around 150 , not sure on total since the robobogs were fitted, not that great an improvement unless there's a lot more standing space?

[tgk300]

1 minute ago, great central said:

4 cars and only 202 seats? A 156 2 car has around 150 , not sure on total since the robobogs were fitted, not that great an improvement unless there's a lot more standing space?

So according to a Railway Magazine article, the 755/4 has 202 standard class seats as stated on the vehicle plate, and then an additional 27 tip up seats. The standing capacity is not stated. Don't forget that this unit is only 80m, and 7 of that is taken up by the powercar. It does seem quite low though. 

[Classsix T]

I didn't get any more Flirt action, my (13:58) Flixtowe train was bustituted so I stomped off in a huff.

Dark by the time of my return and a swift pelt across the footbridge landed me a seat in a declassified 1st class Mk3. Luxury.

 

C6T. 

[great central]

2 hours ago, tgk300 said:

So according to a Railway Magazine article, the 755/4 has 202 standard class seats as stated on the vehicle plate, and then an additional 27 tip up seats. The standing capacity is not stated. Don't forget that this unit is only 80m, and 7 of that is taken up by the powercar. It does seem quite low though. 

 

A 156 is 2x23m cars so a bit over half the length of these. There must be more standing room though. About the most I've had is around 120 in a single 153 when that was all that turned up for a Nottingham-Worksop one Saturday when Nottingham Forest had been playing at home.