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Greater Anglia's Stadler Flirt - Class 745 & 755


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1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

I am in no position to comment on any aspect of these new units except .......

 

......the horrendous horns / warning klaxons !!!

 

Innocently sitting alongside the river just outside Norwich, enjoying the sunshine and tranquility, when - a blast akin to the siren on the QE2 nearly precipitated me into the water!

 

This was repeated every time a Flirt approached the nearby level crossing.

 

Since when did we need a heart attack to warn us of an approaching train? What's wrong with Dee-daw?

 

Not impressed!

 

CJI.

 

The same type of horn has been used on the continent for years without complaint.


Surely a warning horn is meant to be clear and noticeable, from a quick look (or listen) on YouTube, the horn does it rather well.

 

For reference, the Class 80x’s are fitted with ‘neighbourhood’ friendly subdued horns for under 100mph, and from I gather there have been a few near misses because of it, so I’d rather have a train with a loud high pitch horn than a quiet one.

 

To be honest this sounds a complaint for complaints sake, something that is becoming common in RMWeb.

 

Simon

Edited by St. Simon
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2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

I am in no position to comment on any aspect of these new units except .......

 

......the horrendous horns / warning klaxons !!!

 

Innocently sitting alongside the river just outside Norwich, enjoying the sunshine and tranquility, when - a blast akin to the siren on the QE2 nearly precipitated me into the water!

 

This was repeated every time a Flirt approached the nearby level crossing.

 

Since when did we need a heart attack to warn us of an approaching train? What's wrong with Dee-daw?

 

Not impressed!

 

CJI.

The Daily Wail sponsored this post, right?

 

:PC6T.

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1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

 

 

For reference, the Class 80x’s are fitted with ‘neighbourhood’ friendly subdued horns for under 100mph, and from I gather there have been a few near misses because of it, so I’d rather have a train with a loud high pitch horn than a quiet one.

 

 

 

Like this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-57582182?fbclid=IwAR39tE1OswDnL6yTG9IppIKyCmq8UjUUX0QLAxsESgfFx_v9wImAielxWao

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9 hours ago, cctransuk said:

I am in no position to comment on any aspect of these new units except .......

 

......the horrendous horns / warning klaxons !!!

 

Innocently sitting alongside the river just outside Norwich, enjoying the sunshine and tranquility, when - a blast akin to the siren on the QE2 nearly precipitated me into the water!

 

This was repeated every time a Flirt approached the nearby level crossing.

 

Since when did we need a heart attack to warn us of an approaching train? What's wrong with Dee-daw?

 

Not impressed!

 

CJI.


Cars are increasingly isolated from the outside world, posh ones now even having double glazing.

 

The consequence is that any warning noise has to be increased in order to penetrate to the driver. It’s why the sirens on emergency vehicles are getting louder and louder.

 

The fact this all makes it very unpleasant to exposed pedestrians is apparently of no consequence. 
 

Paul

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6 minutes ago, Fenman said:

The fact this all makes it very unpleasant to exposed pedestrians is apparently of no consequence

I'm not sure it's of no consequence. It's an unavoidable consequence of the various factors that lead to the horns needing to be louder. I'm not sure physics allows for a horn to be sounded both loud enough for car occupants to hear and quiet enough to not upset pedestrians simultaneously. And Ufton Nervet shows why it needs to be audible to drivers.

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2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I'm not sure it's of no consequence. It's an unavoidable consequence of the various factors that lead to the horns needing to be louder. I'm not sure physics allows for a horn to be sounded both loud enough for car occupants to hear and quiet enough to not upset pedestrians simultaneously. And Ufton Nervet shows why it needs to be audible to drivers.

 

There are alternatives. I dunno: make it compulsory for cars to have a loudspeaker fitted which has a proximity alert, telling them to pull over right now? ALl the sound from that would be confined to the car, making it possible to have a less piercing warning for pedestrians, etc.

 

That's probably a garbage idea, but what is interesting in your reply is your presumption that catering to the needs of a motorist who has deliberately chosen to coccoon themselves in silence is much more important than the environmental impact on humans going about their business in the open air. Priority for motorists yet again. And then petrolheads wonder why people start insisting on low-speed roads, blocking of rat-runs, and even legislation to discourage them from driving cars which pollute the lungs and brains of toddlers in built up areas.

 

Back vaguely O/T, as a passenger I think these Flirts are rather good: much better than the tired old rattlers they have replaced.

 

Paul

 

 

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On 24/06/2021 at 22:15, St. Simon said:

To be honest this sounds a complaint for complaints sake, something that is becoming common in RMWeb.

 

I am fully entitled to an opinion - and mine is that the traditional British two-tone horn could not have been a problem causing accidents, or it would have been changed wholesale years ago.

 

CJI.

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Even locos in the past had a range of horns fitted.  I'm sure that some such as 47's had a differing tone.

 

There are way to many Snowflakes out there who complain about anything.  Had it where there was a person who complained about the steam trains producing smoke (all her photos just showed steam) and yet her neighbours sent messages after the pandemic closedown to say that they had missed the sight and hearing the trains.

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2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I am fully entitled to an opinion - and mine is that the traditional British two-tone horn could not have been a problem causing accidents, or it would have been change wholesale years ago.

 

CJI.

 

But then Puffing Billy was not a problem causing accidents either (normally horns prevent rather then cause accidents btw)

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4 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

But then Puffing Billy was not a problem causing accidents either (normally horns prevent rather then cause accidents btw)

 

Sarcasm does not become you - and it does not take away from the fact that I see no reason for anything more attention-seeking that the traditional British 'Dee-daw'.

 

You clearly do not agree - but then that is just YOUR opinion.

 

CJI.

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On 25/06/2021 at 12:37, AMJ said:

Even locos in the past had a range of horns fitted.  I'm sure that some such as 47's had a differing tone.

 

There are way to many Snowflakes out there who complain about anything.  Had it where there was a person who complained about the steam trains producing smoke (all her photos just showed steam) and yet her neighbours sent messages after the pandemic closedown to say that they had missed the sight and hearing the trains.

 

There are way too many Rednecks out there who have no tolerance of other people's opinions!

 

While we're there, there are far too many posters out there who can't type a grammatical posting - JMHO, of course.

 

Opinions differ - that is as much a part of diversity as is ethnicity.

 

CJI.

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4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I am fully entitled to an opinion - and mine is that the traditional British two-tone horn could not have been a problem causing accidents, or it would have been change wholesale years ago.

 

CJI.

 

How about getting in touch with Greater Anglia?

 

If it turns out you are the first person to complain about the horns they will probably make a note of your details and quietly regard you (sorry!) as a bit of a crank; but if you are the fiftieth this month then they might see a need to do something about it.

 

- Richard.

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37 minutes ago, 47137 said:

 

How about getting in touch with Greater Anglia?

 

If it turns out you are the first person to complain about the horns they will probably make a note of your details and quietly regard you (sorry!) as a bit of a crank; but if you are the fiftieth this month then they might see a need to do something about it.

 

- Richard.

 

No need - I live in Cornwall and was only visiting East Anglia; thankfully!

 

CJI.

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On 25/06/2021 at 07:08, Zomboid said:

I'm not sure it's of no consequence. It's an unavoidable consequence of the various factors that lead to the horns needing to be louder. I'm not sure physics allows for a horn to be sounded both loud enough for car occupants to hear and quiet enough to not upset pedestrians simultaneously. And Ufton Nervet shows why it needs to be audible to drivers.

You are presumably unaware that the inquest on the victims of the Ufton Nervet HST derailment recorded that the driver of the car deliberately parked on the level crossing intending to commit suicide. In which case  whatever sound the train made would have made no difference at all to the outcome.

Thus, I fear that I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

Edited by Arun Sharma
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Ufton Nervet shows the potential consequence of a car/ train crash at a level crossing. Yes it was deliberate, but the result could have been the same if it occurred accidentally.

 

There's obviously other systems in place beyond the train horn to prevent such an occurrence happening by accident, but the horn needs to be effective in case those fail.

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On 25/06/2021 at 12:55, cctransuk said:

 

There are way too many Rednecks out there who have no tolerance of other people's opinions!

 

While we're there, there are far too many posters out there who can't type a grammatical posting - JMHO, of course.

 

Opinions differ - that is as much a part of diversity as is ethnicity.

 

CJI.


And in YHO exactly what ethnic group are these Rednecks???? Go on…..? I have a friend very interested in your reply, from a professionally legal view point! 

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39 minutes ago, STONECOLDSMILE1882 said:


And in YHO exactly what ethnic group are these Rednecks???? Go on…..? I have a friend very interested in your reply, from a professionally legal view point! 

 

The same one as Snowflakes!

 

CJI.

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I am sure that rednecks, snowflakes etc can be from any ethnic group. It is an attitude to life not a racial characteristic.

And while some do not have a very good grasp of English (blame their schools) others like me just don't have very good control of their fingers!

In other words, it takes all types.

Let's get back to those East Anglian trains. I was a bit concerned to see it suggested that there had been another spate of failures. Let's hope they settle down again.

Jonathan

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On 25/06/2021 at 10:00, cctransuk said:

 

I am fully entitled to an opinion - and mine is that the traditional British two-tone horn could not have been a problem causing accidents, or it would have been change wholesale years ago.

 

CJI.

 

Except that it was.  I can only comment about what I know, but Deltics in particular had problems with horn audibility.  Audibility trials were taken place with three stationary locos on an early Sunday morning on the ECML with recordings taken at various distances from  in order to test various options in trying to make them louder.  The option settled for was to change the horn type to Westinghouse Pneuphonic, mounted on the nose.  As a side note, this means anyone with a Sound fitted Deltic modelling their early years probably has the wrong sound for the horn.

 

Some class 47's had issues too, the nickname "Spoon" coming from the garbled squeak of a noise their horns made.

 

So there have been documented issues (i.e. not opinion) for two tone horn audibility right from their introduction, with various attempts to improve the worst offenders.

 

It is perfectly OK having an opinion,  but if you don't base your opinion on a good foundation then you only have yourself to blame if it comes crashing down.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

Except that it was.  I can only comment about what I know, but Deltics in particular had problems with horn audibility.  Audibility trials were taken place with three stationary locos on an early Sunday morning on the ECML with recordings taken at various distances from  in order to test various options in trying to make them louder.  The option settled for was to change the horn type to Westinghouse Pneuphonic, mounted on the nose.  As a side note, this means anyone with a Sound fitted Deltic modelling their early years probably has the wrong sound for the horn.

 

Some class 47's had issues too, the nickname "Spoon" coming from the garbled squeak of a noise their horns made.

 

So there have been documented issues (i.e. not opinion) for two tone horn audibility right from their introduction, with various attempts to improve the worst offenders.

 

It is perfectly OK having an opinion,  but if you don't base your opinion on a good foundation then you only have yourself to blame if it comes crashing down.

 

 

 

Remind me please - how long ago did these tests / changes take place?

 

.... and for how many years thereafter did the BR standard two-tone horns remain in service?

 

... and are there not still BR standard two-tone horns in everyday operational service.

 

I base my opinions on personal observation - visual and audible - and have not had cause for concern as to the stability of those opinions.

 

CJI.

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I've no knowledge about train horns so I'll just stick with the simple part - how and where even the same piece of equipment is mounted can make quite a big difference as to how loudly it can be heard from and where. Acoustics can be a complex affair.

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43 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Remind me please - how long ago did these tests / changes take place?

 

.... and for how many years thereafter did the BR standard two-tone horns remain in service?

 

... and are there not still BR standard two-tone horns in everyday operational service.

 

I base my opinions on personal observation - visual and audible - and have not had cause for concern as to the stability of those opinions.

 

CJI.

 

There is no such thing as a  standard two tone horn.  There were a variety of manufacturers that supplied BR, and all had different characteristics.  There was great variation in note, volume etc. etc. and as @Reorte rightly said even position made a big difference, so identical horns on different trains would have different results.  BR was always trying to make them better, from the Deltics I mentioned, through to the chimes of the class 91's in the late 80's, right through to what we have now.  So for tests basically pick any year from then until now and there will have been some tests done in trying to improve the two tone horn, as it is still an ongoing process, just as it has always been.

 

Not to mention all the tests done each time a new train has been introduced, from the sixties to the present day.

 

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I guess aurally (and visually for that matter) these might be overkill even on todays UK rail network.

 

1531053657_KockumSonicsInnoTrans18092018-RMweb.jpg.dd76dba203c80f47ce460327f6cca683.jpg

 

Photo taken at the InnoTrans rail trade fair in Berlin, 18th September 2018.

 

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29 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

There is no such thing as a  standard two tone horn.  There were a variety of manufacturers that supplied BR, and all had different characteristics.  There was great variation in note, volume etc. etc. and as @Reorte rightly said even position made a big difference, so identical horns on different trains would have different results.  BR was always trying to make them better, from the Deltics I mentioned, through to the chimes of the class 91's in the late 80's, right through to what we have now.  So for tests basically pick any year from then until now and there will have been some tests done in trying to improve the two tone horn, as it is still an ongoing process, just as it has always been.

 

Not to mention all the tests done each time a new train has been introduced, from the sixties to the present day.

 

 

All this angst arose from a simple observation by myself, to the effect that I found the audible warning device fitted to the 'Flirts' to be excessively loud - and I remain of that opinion, despite a flurry of ruffled feathers from certain quarters.

 

I asked no-one to agree with me - clearly some do not - but it is an opinion to which I am entitled.

 

End of my input.

 

CJI.

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