Siggie in the east Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) Last bit of info from me for now. As a compromise from NR, over the weekend, treadles are being fitted to crossings on the sheringham/cromer branches to help with train detection so that services to Sheringham can begin to run again safely and reliably. This is NOT an admission of guilt on NRs part but a way of compromise and working together with GA to get the passengers the train service they deserve Thanks Edited December 18, 2019 by Siggie in the east 1 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siggie in the east Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Zomboid said: Sounds both believable and like it shouldn't be a massive deal to resolve - not knowing the layout of the equipment under there. I agree. I have no idea which way the sand "spout" faces but maybe the could just turn it to face the other way If that is the way to fix this, and without starting another massive row online, I wonder who is at fault for the way it has been made? Was the spec sent to Stadler from GA with the sanders required to apply to the non-driving wheel or did Stadler build them all with them in the wrong place? Interesting to see what happens. Thanks 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Just speculating, the minimum distance between the sander and TCA sounds like the kind of thing which may well not be in a specification or standard. Could well be that the specific issue is one which just hasn't affected anything else in the past, and it's just chance that these are the first trains to discover this. Or it could be that it was known and Stadler weren't told, or it could be that they were told and it didn't make it to the construction phase... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2019 A wrong sider is always worrying but in this case it seems to have helped with the finding of the (probable) cause for the issues. Well done to all involved in finding what is hopefully the issue and therefore allowing those who are able to, to work on a solution - which as Zomboid has said should be reasonably straight forward to resolve. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 12 minutes ago, Zomboid said: Could well be that the specific issue is one which just hasn't affected anything else in the past, and it's just chance that these are the first trains to discover this. Or it could be that it was known and Stadler weren't told, or it could be that they were told and it didn't make it to the construction phase... Perhaps it only shows up as an issue in combination with the track circuits used on the Cromer branch? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Excessive sand on the railhead has certainly been a cause of wrong side TC failures in the past, but not AFAIK having been deposited by the train involved ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Zomboid said: Needham Market & Stowmarket Cheers Hypnotoad, I knew Newmarket couldn't be right, and my over tired brain had renamed stowmarket to stow-on-the-wold (where the hell is that?! ) 1 hour ago, Siggie in the east said: News regarding the incident at the crossing on the cromer branch. S&T have investigated the issue and have found that it could be down to the stadlers. They have found that the location of the TCAs under the trains are too close to where the units sanders are and when the driver dispenses the sand, it comes out and interrupts the contact between the TCAs and the wheels, causing an interruption in the signal between the train and the track. That, coupled with leaf fall contamination and drivers using the sanders alot to keep traction has resulted in the issue we have seen with the train "dissappearing". Hope this makes sense. Thanks Edit- have heard it from a manager now that the Sanders are located in the wrong position. They are feeding the non- driving wheels when they should be feeding the driving wheels. The TCAs are linked with the non-driving wheels so we may have an answer to why it's not communicating with the infrastructure. But, but, but, it's a signalling issue! it's all NR's fault! The trains and GA are not to blame, etc, etc, etc Good work all on finding the issue, hopefully the resolution is a simple one. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Siggie in the east said: News regarding the incident at the crossing on the cromer branch. S&T have investigated the issue and have found that it could be down to the stadlers. They have found that the location of the TCAs under the trains are too close to where the units sanders are and when the driver dispenses the sand, it comes out and interrupts the contact between the TCAs and the wheels, causing an interruption in the signal between the train and the track. That, coupled with leaf fall contamination and drivers using the sanders alot to keep traction has resulted in the issue we have seen with the train "dissappearing". Hope this makes sense. Thanks Edit- have heard it from a manager now that the Sanders are located in the wrong position. They are feeding the non- driving wheels when they should be feeding the driving wheels. The TCAs are linked with the non-driving wheels so we may have an answer to why it's not communicating with the infrastructure. Waiting for someone to re-appear with his home cooked humble pie. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted December 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said: So who's at fault? The Swiss company built a product to the specs requested. The specs requested were as laid out for the previous model by the customer. The previous model was working in the system as it had a better operating envelope than had been recognised as being required. I've seen this situation many times over the years in electronics design, reliance on non warranted parameters or over performing hardware as per your example to get something to work; indeed I haven't seen it happen since... yesterday; also on a radio transmitter as it happens. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I'd love to know the thinking behind putting sanders on unmotored wheels. Sounds like rookie mistake to me, though it's not something I know much about. There could be a good reason for it being like that... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Zomboid, if they are before the driving wheels, it gives time to grind the sand down a little bit in the interface, and aid the traction. If it is after the driven wheels...well, nope, I've got nothing... James 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted December 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, Zomboid said: I'd love to know the thinking behind putting sanders on unmotored wheels. Sounds like rookie mistake to me, though it's not something I know much about. There could be a good reason for it being like that... I'm struggling to think of a reason too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, Zomboid said: I'd love to know the thinking behind putting sanders on unmotored wheels. Sounds like rookie mistake to me, though it's not something I know much about. There could be a good reason for it being like that... Traction tyres on the powered wheels ? Sorry - we need a bit of humour here. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I suppose if the configuration is (starting at the outer end of the unit): Sander - unmotored - motored then it would at least put sand under the driven wheels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Zomboid said: I suppose if the configuration is (starting at the outer end of the unit): Sander - unmotored - motored then it would at least put sand under the driven wheels. Unfortunately it's the outer 2 bogies that are motored. The Jacob's bogies in the middle are all unmotored. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classsix T Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Isn't it the same on 321s that the sanders aren't on the traction motor carriage? Apologies to Satan's for using location tri-codes for stations, at one time because I knew them they made National Rail Enquiries and the like so much easier to use. As a slightly connected issue, on three occasions I've felt the need to inform Drive of a train arriving at Needham that "you're showing reds Chief" all with TurboStars IIRC. The fact that it's only happened with 170s begs the question of is the direction of the train and the front end lighting not tied? I'd have liked to think you can't belt off from Ipswich and get up to 90mph with reds as your front end illumination, but apparently you can. Fortunately, Claydon LC has full barriers. Thing is, on a Flirt, I can't saunter up to the cab window to inform Drive. The door being that farther back, plus armed response coppers being called should I attempt it. C6T. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted December 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 18, 2019 Perhaps the location of the sanders depends whether the sand is intended to assist traction, or assist braking? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 On 15/12/2019 at 00:16, beast66606 said: GA had NO choice in the units going to TfW - they were effectively ordered to hand them over, this "fake news" story aboutGA choosing to hand units over before full acceptance of the new trains has been repeated many times on local Facebook groups and is simply not true, they had no choice in the matter. Presumably they did have more freedom with the 90 sets and they still got rid of them too early. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
17A Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I say …. if all else fails on the Norwich to Shez line, then we should have a whip round to invest in 7 & 1/4'' gauge track. We'll need to bring all stations to ground level and at Whitlingham we'll have a new station called 'Whitlingham International'. Of course we'll need permission from his lordship, looking at prices for speed limit sign and Upper Quadrant Home Signal Arm at £3.50 on ebay. Not only will we be saving money we'll be far more environmentally friendly and just to boot it'll be a community railway project. I'll get started at Gunton …… 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 48 minutes ago, 17A said: I say …. if all else fails on the Norwich to Shez line, then we should have a whip round to invest in 7 & 1/4'' gauge track. We'll need to bring all stations to ground level and at Whitlingham we'll have a new station called 'Whitlingham International'. Of course we'll need permission from his lordship, looking at prices for speed limit sign and Upper Quadrant Home Signal Arm at £3.50 on ebay. Not only will we be saving money we'll be far more environmentally friendly and just to boot it'll be a community railway project. I'll get started at Gunton …… Might be able to knock this guy down a bit https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F293341489648 With regard to the links with the Sheffield tram-train issues, I don’t think there are any. They were built by Vossloh who only sold the light rail business to Stadler afterwards 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, 31A said: Perhaps the location of the sanders depends whether the sand is intended to assist traction, or assist braking? Braking is more important. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Saw a Sibil on the Clacton branch today running on Diesel. Not quite sure why it was there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Talltim said: Presumably they did have more freedom with the 90 sets and they still got rid of them too early. Which 90 sets have they got rid of ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siggie in the east Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 43 minutes ago, beast66606 said: Which 90 sets have they got rid of ? Not sure of the set number but 1 is being stored on the MNR, they posted a video of it on the FB page being delivered by 37600 about a month ago Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher125 Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 53 minutes ago, Suzie said: Saw a Sibil on the Clacton branch today running on Diesel. Not quite sure why it was there! Driver training I think? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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