Greater Anglia's Stadler Flirt - Class 745 & 755

[ruggedpeak]

3 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Well said Sir!

 

The trouble is it's much easier to be an armchair critic and go off half-cocked!

 

I have the utmost respect and sympathy for the GA staff at the coalface who are having to deal with the issues surrounding the new GA fleet.

No one is criticising the staff on the frontline, but whoever is in charge but didn't have a plan for:

 

1) a new and problematic type of train failing full of passengers 

2) the rescue loco failing / not reaching the scene / having problems - I assume it came from Colchester or beyond, possibly Norwich 

3) no effective plan for detraining 400 people close to stations in London (bit different from the wilds of the Norfolk countryside miles from a road where it would be tricky)(doubly ironic as TfL got into trouble for detraining too quickly!)

 

Anyone in or out of an armchair should realise that where people are trapped/stranded when it gets past the first hour or so someone should be working up the evacuation plan in case the other solutions fail. 5 hours and calling in the heavies smacks of  a failure to plan for the most basic contingency. There is even an EMU depot 3 miles up the line with two 08's plus spare EMU's. 

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

The plan for a failure was to send the rescue loco, which they did, but that took some time. When that didn't work they had to come up with a different plan. Closing the GEML near Stratford to evacuate onto the ballast has to be the absolute last resort once everything else has failed.

 

I've had 3 hours on a stationary train staring vacantly at the same bush, and it's boring and frustrating, but far safer than stumbling along the track - that is a dangerous enough environment when properly trained and attired with boots and so on, never mind for someone who may not be especially fit wearing unsuitable shoes.

 

The train sitting down and refusing to go further is obviously bad, but from what's been said here the response from GA was about as good as could reasonably be expected.

[Titan]

One thing that seems to be forgotten is the unpredictability of the situation.  If it is thought likely that the train can be moved within half an hour*, even if the passengers have already been on the train some time, you are not going to detrain the passengers for the sake of a half hour* wait.  Was there any point in the proceedings when they did not think it would be sorted in half an hour*?  

 

*or reasonable time of your choice.

[russ p]

6 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Apart from the rotten chassis - absolutely nothing wrong!

 

What gives you that idea? Mk3s don't actually have a chassis they are integral construction 

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

 

What gives you that idea? Mk3s don't actually have a chassis they are integral construction 

Doesn't that mean that any corrosion issues are likely to be more serious, and potentially more expensive, to repair than on a vehicle with a separate body attached to a chassis?

[russ p]

8 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Doesn't that mean that any corrosion issues are likely to be more serious, and potentially more expensive, to repair than on a vehicle with a separate body attached to a chassis?

 

It's not that long they all went through big overhauls that rectified any corrosion. 

As someone who drives these trains and prepares them over the pit at bounds green I can say they are in very good condition 

[Bad79]

4 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

No one is criticising the staff on the frontline, but whoever is in charge but didn't have a plan for:

 

1) a new and problematic type of train failing full of passengers 

2) the rescue loco failing / not reaching the scene / having problems - I assume it came from Colchester or beyond, possibly Norwich 

3) no effective plan for detraining 400 people close to stations in London (bit different from the wilds of the Norfolk countryside miles from a road where it would be tricky)(doubly ironic as TfL got into trouble for detraining too quickly!)

 

Anyone in or out of an armchair should realise that where people are trapped/stranded when it gets past the first hour or so someone should be working up the evacuation plan in case the other solutions fail. 5 hours and calling in the heavies smacks of  a failure to plan for the most basic contingency. There is even an EMU depot 3 miles up the line with two 08's plus spare EMU's. 

 

 

 

nor the NRW staff who also deal with the fall out

 

[ess1uk]

43 minutes ago, Bad79 said:

nor the NRW staff who also deal with the fall out

 

????

who?

[Siggie in the east]

7 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

????

who?

I think that's meant to be network rail staff (NWR).

The signallers go through alot of stress is situations like this, plus the signalling shift managers. Then you have the MOMs and RIOs who manage the site on the ground who liaise with Control, BTP and also the signallers, while maintaining the safety of everyone venturing onto the track. 

[Bad79]

On 29/01/2020 at 08:58, russ p said:

 

That's correct,  I'm turning one of them today .

As there is two large logo 37s working it tomorrow shame I can't get the network rail stickers off them and replaced with independent snowplough Norwich! 

I saw you today, i waved!!!

 

Are we expecting bad weather???  Does NWR knowing something everyone else doesnt

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Zomboid said:

The plan for a failure was to send the rescue loco, which they did, but that took some time. When that didn't work they had to come up with a different plan. Closing the GEML near Stratford to evacuate onto the ballast has to be the absolute last resort once everything else has failed.

 

I've had 3 hours on a stationary train staring vacantly at the same bush, and it's boring and frustrating, but far safer than stumbling along the track - that is a dangerous enough environment when properly trained and attired with boots and so on, never mind for someone who may not be especially fit wearing unsuitable shoes.

 

The train sitting down and refusing to go further is obviously bad, but from what's been said here the response from GA was about as good as could reasonably be expected.

And let's just for a minute consider the logistics of it all -

1. As you say the obvious answer is to call in the rescue loco - there is one in situ manned and ready to go so 'somebody' has clearly taken that precaution.

2. The rescue loco takes time to get to the spot where it has to stop prior to be called forward to the failed train then has to go in at low speed and attach, brakes to be sorted etc

 

So far it is likely to have taken around 45-60 minutes from the time of the failed train coming to a stand, perhaps even longer if the Driver of the failed train first spent some time trying to get it moving on its own.

 

3.  Plan A hasn't worked so - for the sake of argument Plan B would be to evacuate the trains -

Stage 1 - find and get to site a sufficient number of PTS qualified staff, time required difficult to estimate but you can probably reckon an hour or more and you will need an absolute minimum of half a dozen people if the dead train is within a couple of hundred yards of a platform and I would actually prefer around 8 or 9.  Beyond that you should allow a minimum of 1 extra person per every 50 yards of walking distance.  But the big problem will be actually finding sufficient people.

Stage 2 - Brief your team  and obtain a possession/line block for them to work within.  We are now probably over 2 hours since the train came to stand and it could be as much as 3 hours.

Stage 3 - (Note possession is now in force)  Distribute team to their respective positions, probably take 10 minutes to check they are all in the right places. 

Stage 4 - Commence disembarkation of passengers and guiding them to the station platform.  inevitably there will be some not exactly sprightly, some may have luggage, there might be things like buggies for infants - and you haven't got anybody to help them apart from getting them off the train, and they have to be counted as they get off and counted as they get onto the station platform.  500 hundred people and assuming none of them trip or drop their luggage and the weather is good and the ground conditions are ideal and walking in single file they will go at the pace of the slowest so a good time over one hour to get them all off and probably at least 90 minutes until they are all clear onto a station platform.   All lines have so far been closed for 100 minutes.

Stage 5. Check the train is empty - 10 minutes to do a thorough check.

Stage 6, Recall the safety team and get them to check nothing has been dropped or left behind as they make their way to the station platform  - probably around 10-15 minutes.

Stage 7.  Check all the safety team are clear and give up the possession - which has shut all four running lines for around 2 hours.

 

Now all of this assumes the station to which you are evacuating people has eamps at the platform ends and that those ramps have not be blocked to prevent people using them.  If the ramps aren't usable due to ungated fencing or those 'dragon's teeth' things used at many stations where ramps still exist you can go back to the drawing board and forget Plan B.   It really would be, as 'Zomboid' said, a plan of last resort and it would not come without risks as anybody who has a walked on a railway will know - tripping is all too easy and ruining shoes is equally easy.

 

Assuming the near impossible task of being able to assemble a sufficient force of PTS qualified staff and a suitable ramped platform to get your passengers clear of the running lines and nobody tripping, or falling, or having a heart attack during the evacuation process I reckon you might have got all the passengers onto a station platform around about 3 hours or a little more after the train came to a stand.  You then have to move them on to wherever of course so that means joining a train on the reopened running lines where they have been backed up for 2 hours and are probably full & standing in many cases.

 

And one final point, why do you need so many people - simples, and speaking from experience - because if you don't your disembarked passengers will go all over the place.  The best way to move them is in fairly small 'shepherded' groups - which takes even longer or needs even more people to do the job.

[caradoc]

In addition to the excellent exposition above, once passengers are on the track no further attempt can be made to move the failed train, even if the fault has been quickly rectified, or provide additional assistance to haul it away.

[beast66606]

5 hours ago, Bad79 said:

I saw you today, i waved!!!

 

Are we expecting bad weather???  Does NWR knowing something everyone else doesnt

 

I saw him twice, at Cantley and over Reedham swing bridge - I shot him. (With a camera )

[Chris116]

57 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

......I shot him. (With a camera )

Saying "prove it!" is the easy way of asking you to post those photos as soon as you are able to, PLEASE.

[ess1uk]

20 hours ago, Siggie in the east said:

I think that's meant to be network rail staff (NWR).

The signallers go through alot of stress is situations like this, plus the signalling shift managers. Then you have the MOMs and RIOs who manage the site on the ground who liaise with Control, BTP and also the signallers, while maintaining the safety of everyone venturing onto the track. 

Network being one word.

can’t  be much fun in Route control or the signal box when that it going on.

[Siggie in the east]

17 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

Network being one word.

can’t  be much fun in Route control or the signal box when that it going on.

I tend to go very quiet and red in the face, or run around shouting at stuff when things like this happen. My smart watch tends to warn me of my rapidly rising heart rate too

Jokes aside, its controlled chaos really with most of the phones ringing constantly and depending on whether it's happened on an NX panel or an MCS workstation, depends on how many can 'work' together on each area at once. MCS tends to be a 1 man only job whereas an NX panel can be triple manned if its particularly bad.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Siggie in the east

[Classsix T]

17 minutes ago, Siggie in the east said:

I tend to go very quiet and red in the face, or run around shouting at stuff when things like this happen. My smart watch tends to warn me of my rapidly rising heart rate too

Jokes aside, its controlled chaos really with most of the phones ringing constantly and depending on whether it's happened on an NX panel or an MCS workstation, depends on how many can 'work' together on each area at once. MCS tends to be a 1 man only job whereas an NX panel can be triple manned if its particularly bad.

I'm imagining Jack Lemmon in "The China Syndrome", I seriously hope that isn't the case! Especially with the Leiston jobs...

 

C6T. 

[Bad79]

4 hours ago, beast66606 said:

 

I saw him twice, at Cantley and over Reedham swing bridge - I shot him. (With a camera )

I saw him over a swing bridge but wasnt Reedham or Somer

[russ p]

1 hour ago, Bad79 said:

I saw him over a swing bridge but wasnt Reedham or Somer

Must have been turning the plough at Trowse,  I was driving when we got back my mate drove the outward trip

[eastwestdivide]

1 hour ago, Classsix T said:

I'm imagining Jack Lemmon in "The China Syndrome",

or the air traffic controller in Airplane "looks like I picked the wrong week to quit smoking..."

[Bad79]

15 minutes ago, russ p said:

Must have been turning the plough at Trowse,  I was driving when we got back my mate drove the outward trip

I was at the top of the stairs looking for Basil's did make us all laugh(running in the one winter without a chance of snow) and then stuck behind Q train

Edited January 30, 2020 by Bad79

[Grovenor]

Quote

again you need staff and you still have the danger and awkwardness (impossibility for some) of getting people down from the failed train and in thios case up to the other one - luggage, small children, old people,  and all.

On DLR every car carries a ramp that can span between doorways when trains are on adjacent tracks and staff are trained to evacuate trains that way, no need to climb up and down. Also carry a ladder to use if evacuation onto the track is the only way but that does require someone to carry wheelchair users. HMRI also required ramps or steps at platform ends to allow evacuation from trackside, blocking the ramps was not an option. Steps are preferred on new builds as the ramps can be very slippery in icy conditions. Wheelchairs don't get involved at the platform ends as they can't get down the ladder or negotiate trackside.

[Gwiwer]

5 minutes ago, Grovenor said:

On DLR every car carries a ramp that can span between doorways when trains are on adjacent tracks and staff are trained to evacuate trains that way, no need to climb up and down. Also carry a ladder to use if evacuation onto the track is the only way but that does require someone to carry wheelchair users. HMRI also required ramps or steps at platform ends to allow evacuation from trackside, blocking the ramps was not an option. Steps are preferred on new builds as the ramps can be very slippery in icy conditions. Wheelchairs don't get involved at the platform ends as they can't get down the ladder or negotiate trackside.

Requirements differ.  The DLR was an all-new light railway and perhaps subject to slightly different procedures and requirements compared with the national network.  The DLR does not, for the most part, have a 4-track main line and while its trains might carry 500 passengers in the peak should the worst happen they are seldom far from a station.  Indeed some stations are so close as to be barely the length of the train apart.  The single-track tunnel bores all have side walkways for evacuation.  

 

I was once required to assist in the evacuation to track of a train.  Not a failure but the derailment of a near-full railtour.  At low speed but on electrified track with conductor rails.  It must have been an hour before we were given authority to de-train.  In that time control and signallers will have organised discharging of traction current and the required line blocks.  Any other trains nearby which had come to a stand but were otherwise unaffected would have been terminated at a platform rather than left standing at a signal for ages.  

 

Then it was down the ladder from a single door, in the dark, onto the ballast.  One at a time and with warnings to "Not step on any rail" and "Treat all rails as live".  Passengers were counted off, shepherded through uncertain territory and over very uneven ground to the nearest station.  This had a usable ramp (though no longer does) as the incident occurred before the days of ungated platform end fences and "dragon's teeth" blocks.  They all had to be counted on to the platform and the numbers had to agree.  They didn't.  We were out by a single-digit number.  Until we realised that the number in question was those of us doing the evacuation and shepherding.  All was well.  

 

It probably took 2 1/2 hours from incident to having the site clear.  And that was on slam-door stock without door locks, with through gangways and therefore with the ability to relatively easily evacuate the train.  Apart from some who missed out on some track-bashing I don't think I heard one complaint.  

 

An evacuation takes quite some time as Mike states.  And as several of us here know.  But the length of time it took GA to clear their train still begs questions.

[uax6]

10 hours ago, Siggie in the east said:

I tend to go very quiet and red in the face, or run around shouting at stuff when things like this happen. My smart watch tends to warn me of my rapidly rising heart rate too

Jokes aside, its controlled chaos really with most of the phones ringing constantly and depending on whether it's happened on an NX panel or an MCS workstation, depends on how many can 'work' together on each area at once. MCS tends to be a 1 man only job whereas an NX panel can be triple manned if its particularly bad.

 

Its the incessant phone calls from control* asking what is happening I hate... They tend to get the message when they ask when I reply 'I'm talking to you, which prevents me from doing something useful'.

Its quite strange really, you get loads of calls for about half an hour, and then it all tends to go quiet.

Can be very annoying, as the incoming calls all need answering, thus preventing effective calls/work from being done and increase the chance of a mistake happening, as they are distractions from what you are doing....

 

*and every other Tom, Dick and Harry

 

Andy G

 

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, uax6 said:

 

Its the incessant phone calls from control* asking what is happening I hate... They tend to get the message when they ask when I reply 'I'm talking to you, which prevents me from doing something useful'.

Its quite strange really, you get loads of calls for about half an hour, and then it all tends to go quiet.

Can be very annoying, as the incoming calls all need answering, thus preventing effective calls/work from being done and increase the chance of a mistake happening, as they are distractions from what you are doing....

 

*and every other Tom, Dick and Harry

 

Andy G

 

Meanwhile in Control the Controllers are asking each other 'What the h*ll is going on and why doesn't anybody tell us anything?'  Two sides to every story alas although some decent organisation makes a big difference - e.g. only one person in Control to speak to the signalbox, preferably someone who knows the area properly.

 

On one occasion after a relatively minor derailment I did the standard test to check if we could run past and found that we could - so we did, at very low speed.  I duly informed the DCC in the relevant Control only to have it suggested by him that I introduce Single Line working between the two signalboxes he named.  So I replied by asking him who was going to call the signal engineers and civil engineers - me or him?  He asked why we needed to do that and I told him that we needed to get one of those named signalboxes rebuilt before we could put in SLW as it was well over 5 years since it had been demolished.  Accordingly I duly, and very nicely, invited him out for a 'day on the district' on his next spare day but he never took up the offer.