Greater Anglia's Stadler Flirt - Class 745 & 755

[black and decker boy]

I'm new to this thread and was previously unaware of these units.

 

Am I right in thinking it's effectively a 4-car EMU with a diesel generator van plonked in the middle rather than being bi-modal throughout?

 

If so, what a damned good idea, as everything else can be standard and the DMU can presumably become a straight electric almost instantly if/when electrification is extended.

 

John

 

PS. Is there a gangway through the "power car"?

Power car is on articulated bogies so you would need to put something in its place to go straight EMU. However, we don’t do straight EMU now if DfT get their way do we, last mile Diesel engine on East Coast long distance “Intercity” class 801s

 

Ps, the flirt diesel power car is wider than all of the other coaches.

[Steadfast]

68s have them

As do 70s, steps and below the doors

 

Jo

[BernardTPM]

IAm I right in thinking it's effectively a 4-car EMU with a diesel generator van plonked in the middle rather than being bi-modal throughout?

If so, what a damned good idea, as everything else can be standard and the DMU can presumably become a straight electric almost instantly if/when electrification is extended. 

Nothing new about that idea. Armstrong Whitworth promoted the same concept in the 1930s.

[Zomboid]

Power car is on articulated bogies so you would need to put something in its place to go straight EMU. However, we don’t do straight EMU now if DfT get their way do we, last mile Diesel engine on East Coast long distance “Intercity” class 801s

 

Ps, the flirt diesel power car is wider than all of the other coaches.

I remember reading that they were designed to be readily converted.

You could just lose one of the articulated bogies if the diesel segment was removed, but I highly doubt that will ever happen to these units.

[newbryford]

As do 70s, steps and below the doors

 

Jo

 

They're not the brightest - even though this was taken on a grey day

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited December 16, 2018 by newbryford

[roundhouse]

Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread but one set of doors per coachon each side rather than the usual two on modern stock would seem to make it slower for passengers to get on and off these.

[Fenman]

Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread but one set of doors per coachon each side rather than the usual two on modern stock would seem to make it slower for passengers to get on and off these.

It’s designed for rural routes across East Anglia, so I imagine that peak-hours, London-style crush-loading is not the primary purpose.

 

I think they look rather smart, for what are fairly utilitarian units. Certainly compared to what they are replacing.

 

Paul

[black and decker boy]

It’s designed for rural routes across East Anglia, so I imagine that peak-hours, London-style crush-loading is not the primary purpose.

 

I think they look rather smart, for what are fairly utilitarian units. Certainly compared to what they are replacing.

 

Paul

Except the 10, 12car versions replacing the 90+MK3 rakes on the Norwich to London line and the 10, 12car versions for the Stanstead Express.

[Fenman]

Except the 10, 12car versions replacing the 90+MK3 rakes on the Norwich to London line and the 10, 12car versions for the Stanstead Express.

 

Er... I thought we were talking about the 4.5 car MUs, from the photo above?

 

In any event, the Norwich rakes are (supposed to be) InterCity vehicles, not mass-movement commuter trains, so the same argument applies. Frankly I find it depressing that every new train is assumed to have to cope with crush-loadings of commuters, and to be designed-down to that spec.

 

Then again, I'm from East Anglia where most of us seem to prefer things to be a bit slower... 

 

Paul

Edited December 16, 2018 by Fenman

[Christopher125]

If so, what a damned good idea, as everything else can be standard and the DMU can presumably become a straight electric almost instantly if/when electrification is extended.  

 

It's perhaps more likely they'd move elsewhere if electrification was extended and the ROSCO could find a new home for them as bi-modes attracting higher leasing charges.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Christopher125

[Siggie in the east]

Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread but one set of doors per coachon each side rather than the usual two on modern stock would seem to make it slower for passengers to get on and off these.

The doors are wider than that of the ones on the 321's, 360's and 170's which also have double doors. These new units have doors that are big enough so that entering and alighting passengers can both move on and off at the same time, thus making things faster and reducing dwell times.

Cheers

Edited December 16, 2018 by Siggie in the east

[phil-b259]

The doors are wider than that of the ones on the 321's, 360's and 170's which also have double doors. These new units have doors that are big enough so that entering and alighting passengers can both move on and off at the same time, thus making things faster and reducing dwell times.

Cheers

 

As are the doors on the 700s.... and we all know how Spartan they are.

 

I think the jury is still out on whether this 'single doorway per carriage' (however wide it is) will work and whether station dwell times will suffer or not.

 

 

 

In any event, the Norwich rakes are (supposed to be) InterCity vehicles, not mass-movement commuter trains, so the same argument applies. Frankly I find it depressing that every new train is assumed to have to cope with crush-loadings of commuters, and to be designed-down to that spec.

 

 

Which is part the problem. While Norwich - London trains may well be deserving of InterCity status they also tend to make quite a few station calls closer to London (thanks to a lack of capacity / the 4 tracking ending at Shenfield rather than Colchester) which are better suited to a traditional commuter EMU layout.

[Siggie in the east]

As are the doors on the 700s.... and we all know how Spartan they are.

 

I think the jury is still out on whether this 'single doorway per carriage' (however wide it is) will work and whether station dwell times will suffer or not.

 

 

 

Which is part the problem. While Norwich - London trains may well be deserving of InterCity status they also tend to make quite a few station calls closer to London (thanks to a lack of capacity / the 4 tracking ending at Shenfield rather than Colchester) which are better suited to a traditional commuter EMU layout.

Ah but when it comes to the 10car intercity 755s, they have 2 pairs of doors per car, the 745 3car and 4car only have 1.

I'm more worried about how badly they have been route restricted at the moment. E.g. 2 Stadler trains of any formation aren't to pass in ipswich tunnel due to gauging and they can only travel over the up line in either direction, so door configurations may not matter at the moment

[russ p]

Ah but when it comes to the 10car intercity 755s, they have 2 pairs of doors per car, the 745 3car and 4car only have 1.

I'm more worried about how badly they have been route restricted at the moment. E.g. 2 Stadler trains of any formation aren't to pass in ipswich tunnel due to gauging and they can only travel over the up line in either direction, so door configurations may not matter at the moment

Who on earth allowed a situation such as this to be accepted!!!

Its normal for proper intercity trains to pass in Ipswich tunnel and as paths are at a premium to do this is absolutely ludicrous

[phil-b259]

Who on earth allowed a situation such as this to be accepted!!!

Its normal for proper intercity trains to pass in Ipswich tunnel and as paths are at a premium to do this is absolutely ludicrous

 

NR are under a legal obligation to make the necessary alterations for new rolling stock ordered by franchises tendered by the DfT providing it meets the UK norms as far as gauge is concerned (hint 'norms' is not the same as 'universal'). Equally it was not unknown for BR to have to make infrastructure modifications for new rolling stock from time to time - the big differences is you didn't tend to get to hear about it as there wasn't  things like social media or the legal brigade sniffing round.

 

For all we know Ipswich tunnel may just need a slight tweak of the track geometry rather than it being a fundamental problem that will be difficult to fix.

 

However I am aware that one of the problems with articulated carriages is they can have more of a 'sway' about them at the ends and this has been cited as a reason not go go for articulation on the tube network with its increasable tight clearances on older lines. If this is the issue with the Sadler products then I grant a solution could be problematic - but why must we always assume the worst?

Edited December 16, 2018 by phil-b259

[russ p]

Because Phil as someone who regularly submits VSTP paths for the GE its bad enough to get one now without some stupid tramcar which reduces capacity on an already overloaded mainline!

['CHARD]

 some stupid tramcar 

 

Saucer of milk over here, please  

[Suzie]

Looks like if electrification from Felixstowe to Peterborough occurs (electric spine still happening at some point for intermodal capacity increase?) then there might then be a few bi-modes that don't require Diesel and car 'B' can be swapped out for a new passenger body. By that time the recovered Diesel engines will probably be required for spares anyway to keep the rest of the fleet running. 

[Suzie]

Presumably the tracks in Ipswich tunnel were put as close together as possible to reduce the amount of floor lowering required for the last lot of gauge improvement work to take containers. Apart from taking ECS trains to Marks Tey (or presumably Colchester now if the new trains are fast enough to run between existing services) for the Sudbury line there should not be any need for bi-modes to go through Ipswich tunnel so it should really be a non-problem for the most part.

[black and decker boy]

Presumably the tracks in Ipswich tunnel were put as close together as possible to reduce the amount of floor lowering required for the last lot of gauge improvement work to take containers. Apart from taking ECS trains to Marks Tey (or presumably Colchester now if the new trains are fast enough to run between existing services) for the Sudbury line there should not be any need for bi-modes to go through Ipswich tunnel so it should really be a non-problem for the most part.

It depends what is causing the gauging issue. As the Intercity services are also going to use these things in electric mode and that all current DMU are replaced by these is bi-mode form, there will be a lot of workings through Ipswich.

 

How often do 170s currently work through to London?

[beast66606]

Because Phil as someone who regularly submits VSTP paths for the GE its bad enough to get one now without some stupid tramcar which reduces capacity on an already overloaded mainline!

 

I'd heard, a good few months back, from my Mrs who knows someone who knows someone whos partner is involved in this (hes involved in the commissioning I think) about the Ipswich tunnel problem but kept quiet due to the tenuous nature of the information, I must admit to shaking my head when I heard

 

 

How often do 170s currently work through to London?

 

Rarely.

[Chris Turnbull]

It’s designed for rural routes across East Anglia, so I imagine that peak-hours, London-style crush-loading is not the primary purpose.

 

I think they look rather smart, for what are fairly utilitarian units. Certainly compared to what they are replacing.

 

Hmm.  Try catching a summer Saturday service to Great Yarmouth.  Correction - any daytime summer service to Yarmouth.  I always try and avoid them if possible or, at least, choose a service in the opposite direction to the flow.

 

Lowestoft isn't much better.  A few years ago the Norwich-Lowestoft service was rostered for a three-car 170.  As the train was was classed as second class I was able to use the first-class compartment at no extra charge.  The rest of the train was jam-packed with holidaymakers with all their concomitant luggage who were not as au fait with the rules as I.  I sat there very smugly but soon took pity on them and explained the finer points.  I could see from their eyes that they weren't convinced but the need to relax overcame their doubt.  They filled the compartment and piled their luggage against the door to the rear driving compartment.  I didn't say anything and awaited developments.

 

We set off and a few minutes later there was the usual announcement over the tannoy: "Please have all tickets ready for inspection".  This was followed by several thumping noises as of a door trying to be opened but hitting an obstruction.  Another announcement ensued: "There will be no ticket inspection due to the guard's inability to get out."

 

Chris Turnbull

Edited December 17, 2018 by Chris Turnbull

[Guest]

Precisely. Whilst I'm not comparing the shoppers and peak-time students to/from North Walsham and Norwich to a typical London commuter crush, capacity can be an issue even on rural routes. The current two-car 156 on the Sheringham branch is often at capacity at certain times of the day and I had the misfortune to ride on a substituted 153 last weekend which was an absolute joke.

For a rural station like Sheringham which for those that don't know is akin to a temporary halt, maximum two cars, I had half expected the platform length to be increased in preparation for these new trains. I'm pretty sure this isn't going to happen, no doubt for reasons of budget/planning etc. I would therefore assume that for an arriving train, passengers will be told to move forwards and alight through the front two cars. Likewise, when boarding, passengers will enter the train and then move forwards from the rear two cars.

The doubling of train length will be very welcome for those using these routes, that's for sure.

[roundhouse]

My experience on Summer Saturdays at Norwich is that such services do get wedged, sometimes leaving people behind. Luckily we have been only going as far as Norwich when there havent been the through services and will only use the branches outside the Summer peak.

Edited December 17, 2018 by roundhouse

[Zomboid]

It could only affect the bi modes, as the diesel generator module is a bit bigger than the passenger carrying vehicles.

 

Or it could all be a load of nothing that will go away when someone takes a closer look. Guess time will tell.