Bilton Junction

[Jon4470]

I’ve finally decided to take the plunge and start a topic on this subject!

 

My intention is to model this area in OO (and OO-9 for the gas works Railway). The layout will be set in the LNER period - notionally 1938 but with some latitude.

 

Why start the topic now? Well, at the start of the year I set myself a few modelling goals (finish all the half built kits etc). Those goals included two that I think this topic will help me with.

Firstly I will build at least one of the scenic boards this year - going public will make me do this!

Secondly I want to improve my photography skills - we’ll see if that happens!

 

Jon

Edited September 15, 2018 by Jon4470

[Jon4470]

A little bit of the prototype history.

 

Bilton Junction is on the old Leeds Northern main line that ran from Leeds to Northallerton via Harrogate and Ripon. The actual Junction is just north of Harrogate.

At this Junction there were also a set of interchange sidings for the Harrogate Gas Works Railway. These brought coal in and took away tar and ammonia. The Gas Works Railway was narrow gauge and on two levels at this site to allow for gravity loading.

 

The rails are all long gone but the area can be easily accessed on foot - the old main line is a public footpath now.

 

Jon

[AdeMoore]

Like the sound of this Jon, good luck with it subscriber 1! So I’ll be keeping an eye on progress .

Post up some pic’s of it in its heyday if you have some or know of any online.

Cheers

Ade

[Jon4470]

Like the sound of this Jon, good luck with it subscriber 1! So I’ll be keeping an eye on progress .

Post up some pic’s of it in its heyday if you have some or know of any online.

Cheers

Ade

Thanks - I suspect that I will need some good luck along the way.....

 

I’ll post some of the background information that I have in due course (that will be another learning curve!)

 

Jon

[Jon4470]

So why have I settled on this subject for a layout?

 

I have nothing against fictitious locations. However, I wanted the challenge of trying to re-create in miniature something that actually existed 80 years ago - so (for me) it had to be a real location.

 

I always take an interest in local history, industry and transport - where ever I live and work. So when I moved to North Yorkshire it was inevitable that I would take an interest in the LNER & NER. I wanted a main line with expresses and long goods trains. I soon realised that a big station was out of the question because of the space involved! Then I began to think about what was important for me in modelling. It took a while, but eventually, I realised that what I really like to do is to make locomotive kits. So the layout is really just a back drop to watch these in action. I do admire great scenic work, townscapes, industry etc but for me they are lower down the priority list. So now I was looking for a stretch of mainline with something interesting to look at (but not a station necessarily). Then I remembered about the gas works railway ......some standard gauge sidings to play around with AND a narrow gauge line!

 

Further investigation confirmed the choice - the expresses were mainly quite short, there were some hefty goods workings, a regular Pullman train, local passenger and goods - oh and one of the narrow gauge locos’ name was the same as my wife’s maiden name!

Finally the main line was on an embankment- ideal for watching trains go by.

 

All I needed now was to work out what space I really needed......time for some serious research into track diagrams etc.

 

Jon

[AdeMoore]

Now Jon these where your at?

Not to sure on the narrow gauge though corporation depot pic? But that’s dragon junction. I’ve had a stab at it

[Jon4470]

Now Jon these where your at?

Not to sure on the narrow gauge though corporation depot pic? But that’s dragon junction. I’ve had a stab at it

Hello Ade

 

You have the correct location.

 

The track layout is, as you say, for Dragon Junction. This is the first Junction on the way out of Harrogate in a Northerly direction. The right hand tracks head towards Starbeck - these still exist. The left hand tracks are the main line to Northallerton. If you follow these tracks then the next Junction is Bilton.

 

The photographer (of the signal box) is facing north. Just behind him is the actual Junction. Over the level crossing on the left and opposite the signal box was the tar dock. A bit further north of that were the coal drops and sidings. The narrow gauge line started from here and travelled a rough semi circle to the west - the actual gas works was on the western side of Harrogate near the Skipton Road.

The photo was taken after the wartime layout changes - you can see new brickwork at the far end of the signal box where it was extended to cope with the extra levers required by additional crossovers and lay by sidings.

 

At the site now? Well there is a small car park where the photographer is standing. The buildings are gone but the tar dock still stands (constructed from concrete with thick tar spills still evident) and the remains of the coal drops can be seen - but not easily because of the undergrowth.

 

I will post the track diagrams for the standard and narrow gauge this weekend. That will highlight one or two little dilemmas that I need to resolve before I can start laying track.

 

Jon

[Jon4470]

Here are couple of links the show some photos of the area and some background information.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page26.htm

 

http://biltonconservationgroup.co.uk/barber-reconstruction-project-–-progress-report-september-2014

 

Jon

[Jon4470]

And here is a photo of the tar dock and signal box. The loco is now happily preserved at Alston.

 

 

http://yorkshirewoldsrailway.org.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=2369&sid=fd1b9e5f2421a79f33eeb2906f89c157&mode=view

 

Jon

[AdeMoore]

And here is a photo of the tar dock and signal box. The loco is now happily preserved at Alston.

http://yorkshirewoldsrailway.org.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=2369&sid=fd1b9e5f2421a79f33eeb2906f89c157&mode=view

Jon

Great photo that Jon so that’s the narrow gauge in the for ground?

Cheers

[Jon4470]

Yes - that's Barber and two tank wagons on top of the tar dock. Must have been a bit scary I think - 8 feet in the air and not a lot of room to play with. The signal box is in the background and is in it's original state - before the wartime extension.

[Jon4470]

As promised a  couple of diagrams - please forgive the hand written nature of them!

 

First - this is the general area showing the route of the narrow gauge line.

 

 

 

IMG_20180602_0001.pdf

 

 

And second is the track layout as I think it was in the 1930's

 

 

IMG_20180602_0002.pdf

[AdeMoore]

As promised a  couple of diagrams - please forgive the hand written nature of them!

 

First - this is the general area showing the route of the narrow gauge line.

 

 

 

IMG_20180602_0001.pdf

 

 

And second is the track layout as I think it was in the 1930's

 

 

IMG_20180602_0002.pdf

Good work Jon so is the second picture the boundary of the intended layout?

Cheers

[AdeMoore]

Narrow gauge line looks interesting tunnel on it by the look? Found a map on the Scottish Libary maps site.

 

 

 

Cheers

[Jon4470]

Good work Jon so is the second picture the boundary of the intended layout?

Cheers

That’s my current thinking. I have scaled out the distance from the level crossing to the end of the sidings and that would take 12 feet. The Junction could be the return curve to a fiddle yard - the line to Starbeck would be a dead end.

The total space required would be 20 ft by 8 ft - which, of course, I don’t have!

 

So I need to decide whether to reduce the length, build a big shed etc

 

In the short term I think I need to work on the basis of a layout that can be dismantled. So the first board would be 4 ft long starting at the level crossing.

 

These dilemmas are what made me start the topic - I might actually make a decision or two!

 

Jon

[Jon4470]

Narrow gauge line looks interesting tunnel on it by the look? Found a map on the Scottish Libary maps site.

C623AD07-4A00-40A3-AF20-186F7F0139A9.png

Cheers

 

One end of the tunnel is a bricked up “feature” in someone’s back garden now I believe.

 

The tunnel was very restricted loading gauge. In turn That meant that all the locos had low roofed cabs.

 

Jon

[Butler Henderson]

One end of the tunnel is a bricked up “feature” in someone’s back garden now I believe.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/2663073748/in/photolist-54jz7N-54fgia-54jX3C-82mCWC-54jY7L-7breLk-RqQ4Ph-PncEWA-PncERL-PncEFW-PncEtw-PwMcZ1-PncF2L

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/2662999982/in/photolist-54jz7N-54fgia-54jX3C-82mCWC-54jY7L-7breLk-RqQ4Ph-PncEWA-PncERL-PncEFW-PncEtw-PwMcZ1-PncF2L

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/2662159583/in/photolist-54jz7N-54fgia-54jX3C-82mCWC-54jY7L-7breLk-RqQ4Ph-PncEWA-PncERL-PncEFW-PncEtw-PwMcZ1-PncF2L

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/phill_dvsn/2663077352/in/photolist-54jz7N-54fgia-54jX3C-82mCWC-54jY7L-7breLk-RqQ4Ph-PncEWA-PncERL-PncEFW-PncEtw-PwMcZ1-PncF2L

[Butler Henderson]

The narrow gauge line was covered in some detail in Harrogate Gas Works Its railways and other transport systems, Martin P.F.Hallows and David H.Smith , Narrow Gauge Railway Society, The Narrow Gauge 146  ISBN 0 95707169 6 0

[Jon4470]

The narrow gauge line was covered in some detail in Harrogate Gas Works Its railways and other transport systems, Martin P.F.Hallows and David H.Smith , Narrow Gauge Railway Society, The Narrow Gauge 146  ISBN 0 95707169 6 0

Yes this book is pretty thorough in it’s coverage. In addition to the history and description of the line it includes drawings of the locos and rolling stock. (These will come in handy because I will have to scratch build the wagons as there are no kits that I’m aware of)

 

With regard to the narrow gauge elements of the Junction there are two other books that I have found useful:

 

Narrow Gauge Railways by Humphrey Household ISBN 0 86299 575 2

 

The Railways of Harrogate and District by James Rogers. ISBN 1 873513 33 X

 

There was also a web site www.thebarberline.co.uk but this appears to have shut down.

 

Jon

[AdeMoore]

Web archive has it but no images saved unfortunately http://web.archive.org/web/20100426062933/http://www.thebarberline.co.uk:80/

Cheers

[Jon4470]

So at the moment I'm trying to finish off some main line coach kits - one nearly complete and two a long way behind that. Once they are done I'll post some photos.

 

Starting this topic has re-kindled my interest in the narrow gauge part of the area. So much so that I have started to work out how to build the wagons. There were two types - the coal hoppers and the tank wagons. I will need two of each. The book - Harrogate Gas Works Its railways and other transport systems referenced in post 18 - has drawings of these wagons. Some of the details and dimensions are estimates but I'm sure that I don't know any better so I will take them as accurate. So tonight I have drawn up an exploded view of the main components of the hopper wagon. I have also produced a shopping list because I don't have the correct sizes of plastic channel in stock. I plan to build the body from plasticard and the bogies from brass (unless I can find some kit bogies that look ok).

 

The plan is below - hope it makes sense!

 

 

 

[Jon4470]

 

And this link should take you to a photo that shows the two tank wagons dis- used. You can make out quite a bit of detail from these and it also becomes apparent that they were handed - the discharge pipes were at opposite ends of the wagons presumably so they matched the standard gauge wagon filler caps.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/crowquine/15459546010?rb=1

[Butler Henderson]

Is the LNER 1930s period definite - as the Starbeck-Pannal direct route closed in June 1951 setting the layout later than that would be more realistic as far as the lack of traffic going to Starbeck as all through trains from the north had to run through Harrogate.

 

I actually have a credit in the James Rodgers book for a very limited albeit probably significant contribution as I pointed out the originally intended title of "Harrogate and District" was that of the local bus company!

[AdeMoore]

Here’s Jon’s link. Great prototype image loads of details full of atmosphere.

 

 

Photographer and copyright unknown.

[Jon4470]

Is the LNER 1930s period definite - as the Starbeck-Pannal direct route closed in June 1951 setting the layout later than that would be more realistic as far as the lack of traffic going to Starbeck as all through trains from the north had to run through Harrogate.

 

I actually have a credit in the James Rodgers book for a very limited albeit probably significant contribution as I pointed out the originally intended title of "Harrogate and District" was that of the local bus company!

Hello

That’s an interesting question and idea.

I originally started out with the idea to model 1950’s BR - just before the modernisation plan. More recently i’ve Migrated towards 1930’s because I think there is more colour and more variety of locos and rolling stock. Last year I really made an effort to attend more shows and to really look at layouts and decide what I really liked. This confirmed my thoughts - I like 1920’s/1930’s, expresses, round and round layouts. (I also like docks and coal mines - but that is another story!)

So I think the answer is yes it will be 1930’s.

 

One thing I have always felt,though, is that it should be possible to run a quite varied timeline on layouts without it looking completely wrong. So it should be possible to have, say, 1920’s followed by 1930’s, then wartime, post war and early 1950’s without things getting too incongruous. I know that the precise track might have changed, the signals might be upgraded, buildings change colour etc but it shouldn’t be too off putting.

 

By the way - I tried a bit of detective work - checked the acknowledgments in the Rogers book and a couple of your posts elsewhere to track you down....Think you are one of two in the acknowledgments! It’s a good book and one tha5 I frequently refer back to.

 

Jon