Bilton Junction

[AdeMoore]

Great idea that Jon where did you manage to find those copper clips?

I may do that myself for the very same reasons.

Cheers.

[Jon4470]

4 hours ago, AdeMoore said:

Great idea that Jon where did you manage to find those copper clips?

I may do that myself for the very same reasons.

Cheers.

 

Thanks Ade

 

I bought them from eBay.....the description was:

 

Mueller BU-34C Solid Copper Mini Alligator Clip with Smooth Jaws 5A

 

There are several suppliers - I just went with cheapest UK one.

[Chas Levin]

Hello Jon, I've reached your latest post, having read through from the beginning and very much enjoyed it all! Seeing Spencer take shape into a lovely loco was great and the layout and the A2 are looking excellent!

I'd seen your wheel lining jig in the photos you posted recently on my own thread and you mentioned you were considering adjustments to deal with the Wobble Problem - did you have any time to spend on that?

I'm working on a little stand that can have a motor-plus-gearbox mounted underneath it, with the axle standing up vertically on which a wheel is mounted to rotate horizontally, for the same purpose.

[Jon4470]

21 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Hello Jon, I've reached your latest post, having read through from the beginning and very much enjoyed it all! Seeing Spencer take shape into a lovely loco was great and the layout and the A2 are looking excellent!

I'd seen your wheel lining jig in the photos you posted recently on my own thread and you mentioned you were considering adjustments to deal with the Wobble Problem - did you have any time to spend on that?

I'm working on a little stand that can have a motor-plus-gearbox mounted underneath it, with the axle standing up vertically on which a wheel is mounted to rotate horizontally, for the same purpose.

 

Hello Chas

Thanks for the comments - I’m glad that you enjoyed the read....it does veer from one subject to another but that’s just a reflection of my interests chopping and changing. Hopefully though it is all focussed on, one day, creating a layout based on a specific location.

 

As for the wheel lining jig - I took a few photos today.

 

The reason for the jig is that, centre punching an indent ( accurately) on the end of an axle, is not something that I think I can do. So that means that the normal compass points in my lining pen won’t work. The other reason for the jig was to support the wheel so it doesn’t deflect when the lining is applied.

 

So I replaced the compass points with a piece of brass rod

 

 

 

 

I then inserted some brass tube into the wooden block. This was cut down so that, when the wheel is placed on the tube, the wheel is fully supported by the block

 

 

 

That was the change from my previous effort.

 

The lining pen is inserted into the tube

 

 

At this point paint did not flow and I ..... gave up!

 

Now looking at it today I think pert of the problem is the angle that the jaws of the lining pen are at.  I’m pretty sure that only the outer jaw is touching the wheel.....will have to ponder some more

 

Hope the photos help...the lining pen is quite stable in the arrangement ...not perfect though.

 

I plan to practice lining at some point and I think I’m going to pay close attention to the angles that give successful results.

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

Hello Jon, yes, I think the angle at which the pen makes contact is critical - both blades have to be in contact I think, so that the line of paint is laid down beween them and they act as guides each side of it.

I'm sure you've effecte an improvement there though by having the wheel supported in a more stable way.

My experience using bow pens is not huge either though - in fact it's been over a year since I last lined a coach, so I plan to do quite a bit of practice before I use one next...

[teaky]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

 

Hello Chas

Thanks for the comments - I’m glad that you enjoyed the read....it does veer from one subject to another but that’s just a reflection of my interests chopping and changing. Hopefully though it is all focussed on, one day, creating a layout based on a specific location.

 

As for the wheel lining jig - I took a few photos today.

 

The reason for the jig is that, centre punching an indent ( accurately) on the end of an axle, is not something that I think I can do. So that means that the normal compass points in my lining pen won’t work. The other reason for the jig was to support the wheel so it doesn’t deflect when the lining is applied.

 

So I replaced the compass points with a piece of brass rod

 

 

I then inserted some brass tube into the wooden block. This was cut down so that, when the wheel is placed on the tube, the wheel is fully supported by the block

 

That was the change from my previous effort.

 

The lining pen is inserted into the tube

 

 

At this point paint did not flow and I ..... gave up!

 

Now looking at it today I think pert of the problem is the angle that the jaws of the lining pen are at.  I’m pretty sure that only the outer jaw is touching the wheel.....will have to ponder some more

 

Hope the photos help...the lining pen is quite stable in the arrangement ...not perfect though.

 

I plan to practice lining at some point and I think I’m going to pay close attention to the angles that give successful results.

 

Jon

This post from Mike Trice may be of interest: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15815-using-a-ruling-pen/&do=findComment&comment=163644

 

[Chas Levin]

On 09/05/2021 at 20:05, teaky said:

This post from Mike Trice may be of interest: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15815-using-a-ruling-pen/&do=findComment&comment=163644

 

Hello Rob, that's a great thread and Mike's post is very helpful, I'd read it before and the next post down quotes Larry Godard (Coachman) with some excellent tips - in fact that's where I got the recipe for half and half Humbrol Yellow and Cream which worked very well for me on teak coaching stock.

 

I've found using a bow pen quite unlike painting with a brush: it's a little more like laying down a line of paint - or putty - from a tube, a continuous movement. One problem I've yet to conquer is the small thickening or blobbing at the start and end of lines - practice will help though .

Edited May 11, 2021 by Chas Levin

[Jon4470]

1 hour ago, teaky said:

This post from Mike Trice may be of interest: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15815-using-a-ruling-pen/&do=findComment&comment=163644

 

Hi Rob

 

Thanks for the link - very useful. I am at the stage (as Larry Godard says) where I need to practice, practice, practice....

 

Jon

[teaky]

13 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Rob

 

Thanks for the link - very useful. I am at the stage (as Larry Godard says) where I need to practice, practice, practice....

 

Jon

Ian Rathbone (I think) recommends buying a cheap metal coach which can be stripped easily and repeatedly without damaging the material itself.

[Jon4470]

1 hour ago, teaky said:

Ian Rathbone (I think) recommends buying a cheap metal coach which can be stripped easily and repeatedly without damaging the material itself.

I have a Hornby Dublo Duchess loco body for that purpose. (Ian was not impressed when I painted it LNER green though)

 

I’ll start with a sheet of brass that has been painted and concentrate on nice straight even lines. I want to really embed my knowledge. 
I’ll the progress to curves and corners... after that 3D objects.

my main frustration is that I am inconsistent.... hopefully this approach will help.

By then I’ll probably have a few models in the queue

[Jon4470]

Something a bit different on the work bench this week.

One of the things that I re-discovered during my tidy up was this poor thing:

 

 

This is actually the first loco kit that I ever built......back in the 1980s. If I recall correctly it was bought from Beatties. It’s a K’s Stanier 8F and still has the original wheels and motor

 

 

At some point it has taken a fall. The front buffer beam is bent, some steps have fallen off, a rear buffer has come away etc

 

 

 

As part of tidying up I decided to sort this loco out......re-attaching the missing bits is tidying up - right?

 

The other thing I wanted to fix were the very wonky boiler handrails. I built them like that because that’s where the holes were on the kit.....never occurred to me that the kit might be wrong.

 

 

[Jon4470]

I set to at a steady pace.

 

First I straightened the front buffer beam. It isn’t quite perfect.....but neither is anything else on this loco! I then re-instated the steps under the cab - soldered in this time.

 

The next things I turned my attention to we’re the handrails. The old ones were snipped off.....K’s used plastic handrail knobs in this kit so it wasn’t difficult to remove them. I marked a horizontal line each side and then drilled holes for the new handrail knobs. I couldn’t get to the inside of the boiler so I glued these handrail knobs in place.

 

 

At last, after 35 years, it has horizontal handrails!

 

Next on the list were cylinder drains....just visible in the photo above. I fabricated these from short handrail knobs and brass wire.

 

 

Finally on the loco, I created pickups. The original design had pick ups on the tender wheels only. I don’t like tenders and locos to be permanently coupled so I decided to make the pickups from the loco only. The other reason is that the phosphor bronze pick up strips were acting as fantastic brakes on the tender wheels!

 

A couple of copper clad pieces plus 0.45 nickel silver wire were formed up into pickups prior to being glued to the mainframes. (The frames are soooo thick that I decided against trying to solder the copper clad to these.)

 

 

The pickups still need to be trimmed......and it looks like one needs to be bent back onto its wheel

 

The loco was put on the test track and.......it worked

I then cleaned the wheels ( and track) plus lubricated the bearings and the loco then worked better!

 

THe tender was quite simple - replace one buffer, new handrails on one side and fit a new false “floor” for the coal. The K’s tender just had an empty space where the coal is supposed to go!

 

 

 

So so now the whole loco and tender looks like his

 

 

I weighs a ton....so I imagine that it will pull a good load. That is until the old K’s motor gives up!

 

This was always meant to be a restoration, not a rebuild, and I’m pleased with it. The fact that it actually runs is a bonus. I’m probably going to touch in the black paint with Humbrol 33...just like the first time around and leave it like that. If I tried a respray it might work but then it wouldn’t be original......and I’d probably alter it to be an LNER livery

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

[AdeMoore]

What a great piece of your modelling journey Jon done her proud too.

Cheers

[Jon4470]

I decided to revisit an old DJH kit for a D20 that has been hanging around part built for way too long. I think that I last had a go at this in 2018. 

 

The kit is an old style white metal kit. This also means it has very thick brass frames and no details (like brakes) below the footplate. I had tried to solder on some wires to form the supports for brakes....but it had turned into a bit of a mess to be honest. I decided that I would replace the frames completely. I cut some (thinner) brass to the same size as the kit frames and set about creating a new chassis. After a few evenings work I had a running chassis.

 

I then started to ponder the bogie fixing to the footplate.......but That’s a story for another day!

 

Anyway, tonight I finished attaching the brakes to the new chassis. I used my new “helping hands” for this and ......well.......they helped! No more chassis wobbling around while I try to solder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been working on a couple of other things.....

One new baseboard has been built. Next visit to a DIY place will include the wood for the next baseboard.

AlsoI have made progress on the timetable/sequence for the layout. I want to identify the locos, carriages and wagons that I need. That will help me to focus my efforts. 

 

Jon

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jon4470

[Chas Levin]

22 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

I decided to revisit an old DJH kit for a D20 that has been hanging around part built for way too long. I think that I last had a go at this in 2018. 

 

The kit is an old style white metal kit. This also means it has very thick brass frames and no details (like brakes) below the footplate. I had tried to solder on some wires to form the supports for brakes....but it had turned into a bit of a mess to be honest. I decided that I would replace the frames completely. I cut some (thinner) brass to the same size as the kit frames and set about creating a new chassis. After a few evenings work I had a running chassis.

 

I then started to ponder the bogie fixing to the footplate.......but That’s a story for another day!

 

Anyway, tonight I finished attaching the brakes to the new chassis. I used my new “helping hands” for this and ......well.......they helped! No more chassis wobbling around while I try to solder.

 

 

 

 

I have been working on a couple of other things.....

One new baseboard has been built. Next visit to a DIY place will include the wood for the next baseboard.

AlsoI have made progress on the timetable/sequence for the layout. I want to identify the locos, carriages and wagons that I need. That will help me to focus my efforts. 

 

Jon

 

Interested to see your helping hands stand has what look like copper clips, Jon: is there any reason for that? I have a couple of different ones and the clips are the same plated iron/steel as the rest of the thing...

[Jon4470]

11 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Interested to see your helping hands stand has what look like copper clips, Jon: is there any reason for that? I have a couple of different ones and the clips are the same plated iron/steel as the rest of the thing...

I replaced the original crocodile clips with the copper ones. The reason is that I never liked the original clips - their grip was quite strong and the serrated teeth were sharp. So I searched for non- serrated (blind) clips  and the one I found just happened to be copper.

 

The end result is that I now actually use the helping hands...I no longer worry that the clips will distort or damage the model that they are holding. The grip is strong enough for soldering or glueing but I doubt it would hold things for filing or cutting.

 

Jon

[Chas Levin]

12 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

I replaced the original crocodile clips with the copper ones. The reason is that I never liked the original clips - their grip was quite strong and the serrated teeth were sharp. So I searched for non- serrated (blind) clips  and the one I found just happened to be copper.

 

The end result is that I now actually use the helping hands...I no longer worry that the clips will distort or damage the model that they are holding. The grip is strong enough for soldering or glueing but I doubt it would hold things for filing or cutting.

 

Jon

Ahhh - very interesting! Yes, I find the clips a touch on the enthusiatic side too and I often resort to inserting a folded slip of paper to mitigate the clench (not a phrase you hear often) but I'll investigate replacement clips, which I'm sure would be easier: the paper slips fall out at the most inopportune moments!

[Jon4470]

I mentioned a couple of posts ago that I was working on a sequence. Well, the approach that I have taken is to combine various data sources.

 

I have a census of trains through Ripon taken on a Thursday in 1931. This gives the time, direction, loco class and number and the number of carriages or wagons in each train.

 

 I have a carriage roster from 1932. This gives the types of carriages that were rostered for each working e.g. Third, brake third etc along with the total number of seats for each class. This is usually sufficient to work out the diagram number for the carriage.

 

Finally, I have a working timetable from 1934.

 

For quite some time I have been working through these to help me decide on Models to build. Over the last couple of weeks, though, I have started to match all these sources together. The aim is to decide which trains I will run and in what sequence. At the same time I want to identify the loco, coaches and, if possible, the wagons that are required for each train.

 

Lastly I want to work out what fiddle yard/ cassettes are required to be able to run the sequence.

 

I find it an interesting exercise and,I hope, that it will help me plan the build af rolling stock and the build of the off scene elements of the layout.

 

Jon

[Jon4470]

Following on from the previous post I thought I’d give an example of the information that I end up with. (The spreadsheet is a work in progress still and is a bit large to post here)

 

The census has a Local Passenger train arriving at Ripon at 06:55 on A Thursday in June 1931. There were 4 carriages and the loco was a D20 number 2011. 

 

The timetable tells me that a passenger train was scheduled to arrive at Ripon at 06:49 and used carriage set 43. It also tells me that the service was the Leeds to Stockton. The timing of this service is very close to that on the census....so I think that they are one and the same.

 

The carriage roster tells me that set 43 comprised 4 carriages - 2 brake thirds, a third and a composite. It also tells me how many seats of each class and the format of the coaches. Hence I know that the set was BT(3), T, C (4,3), BT(3). (The brakes had 3 compartments and the composite had 4 first and 3 third class compartments)

 

The carriages could be NER clerestory, NER elliptical roof or Gresley non corridor. In fact, the set could be a mix of these by the 1930s. Photos are what then can use to decide on the mix.

 

So I can represent this service with a D20 plus BT(3), T, C (4,3), BT(3). I can confirm the loco number by checking it’s allocation in 1931 and picking a loco from the same shed in 1938 (date of the layout).

 

I’m working through each service in this detail to end up with a list of locos and carriages. The carriage formation just described was the standard one on the Leeds Northern.....so I can re- use the same models for many trains if I want. Re-using carriages like this is one of the reasons that I am thinking about cassettes for storage because I’m told ( by those that should know) that this is both space efficient and easier to use when re-marshalling trains.

 

Jon

 

 

[Jon4470]

To bring things around in a full circle, the D20 number 2011 that hauled the Leeds Stockton service, was shedded at Neville Hill from build in 1899 to 1940 ( according to Yeadons). So that means that I have the identity for my current loco build.

[Chas Levin]

[Jon4470]

I’ve been slowly moving things along recently in between household jobs- which take priority in the good weather.

 

I have been building scenic baseboard number two. Well, you know the phrase measure twice, cut once? To that should be added...... measure the correct dimension twice! I’ve ended up with some, accurately cut, oversize Cross members.....which means I’ve sort of started baseboard number three! 

 

Never mind, another trip to the DIY shed to get some more plywood and I should be able to finish both boards two and three.

 

Then I’ll just need to put all three up, lay the track base etc, etc

Might be possible outside if the weather is good enough - and I can find a flat enough spot. Or maybe I could borrow the kitchen/ diner?

[Jon4470]

I’ve also been working on the D20 chassis.

 

I’ve been determined to get this running really well before getting on with the interesting bits of the build!

 

I got things going well until the coupling rods went on. This time the problem wasn’t caused by any binding though - so that was a relief. The loco would run along nicely, and slowly, and then just stop. If not mechanical, then it had to be electrical...... First I cleaned the test track thoroughly....and the wheels. This helped, but did not cure the problem.

 

So then I watched...and watched...and watched....Eventually I saw what I think is the issue. The chassis is yawing (waddling) from side to side.....remember it is only an 0-4-0 at this stage. As I recall 0-4-0s are prone to this yaw. At the limits of the yaw the wheels have a very limited pick up connection with the track. 

 

What to do?

 

First...more cleaning of the wheels right on the edges of the tyres. That helped a bit.

 

Next - could I widen the back to back of the driving wheels.....not with these wheels because they are old Romford. Replacement is a last resort...because this is meant to be a cheap and cheerful build!

 

Third ...electrical pick up. Could I improve it...maybe.

 

Then it dawned on me - fit the bogie wheels so that there is less yaw!

 

I had already decided on an experiment for the bogie on this kit.

The kit bogie was designed to be attached by a bolt straight down through the smokebox. This leaves acres of daylight around the bogie wheels, which I don’t like as it is just not what the real thing looked like.

I had made the scratch built frames about half as long as the footplate ( just by copying the originals- see a few posts earlier). I decided that I could make a narrower set of frames for the front half of the loco and treat the whole section as a bogie by attaching it to a spacer using a bolt. Furthermore by putting a wire from the “ bogie” through some guides on the footplate there would be an element of side control. 

 

So I put this lot together and - it worked!

 

The frames and loco ( just resting in place) look like this

 

 

 

 

The chassis components are

 

 

 

 

I plan to add a layer of plastic sheet to the front frames/ bogie (along with a few rivets- the brass strip between the wheels represents the bogie frames - so it will hopefully look more like frames and a bogie. A bolt passes up through the pivot plate, through the front spacer on the mainframes and into a retaining nut on the footplate.

 

 

The side play guide wire looks like this

 

 

 

The brass strip takes some of the weight of the loco superstructure  and the wire is soldered under this, it then runs in two guides soldered into the footplate

 

 

 

 

Next test will be to see if it is flexible enough to go around bends!

 

Bit of a long post - sorry - but I’m pleased with this and, I hope, I can now move on to the next stage of the build.

 

Jon

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Jon4470

[Chas Levin]

Very nice work Jon; I thought I mght have to do this on my current build, after learning about the idea when Jol Wilkinson mentioned it being done as part of a Brassmasters chassis, but I didn't need to in the end. It's a nice solution though, using clever engineering in a way that isn't visible but does the job!

[Jon4470]

2 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Very nice work Jon; I thought I mght have to do this on my current build, after learning about the idea when Jol Wilkinson mentioned it being done as part of a Brassmasters chassis, but I didn't need to in the end. It's a nice solution though, using clever engineering in a way that isn't visible but does the job!

 

Thanks Chas. I definitely can’t claim to be the originator of the idea - having seen it in a few different places before. (I think 52f models use it on one kit - I saw a test build at a show that he was at some years ago.)

As you say it seems to work and I can confirm, after a couple of tests, that it goes around bends Ok!

 

I’ve spent this evening scratch building a replacement smokebox saddle to support the elongated smokebox. It’s getting there but will take a bit more time to finish off.