BR Locomotive Green

[PenrithBeacon]

I am quite happy to paint my green locos in anything calling itself Brunswick, or British Racing. Life's too short to waste on this sort of thing; close enough for jazz does for me. We'll be arguing about shades of black next (this is NOT an invitation to open a topic about how many shades of black were different to blackberry!!!).

Sorry, I just wanted to know! Now I do and I’m content!

[PenrithBeacon]

British Racing Green was/is a darker green than GWR/BR Green.

When I was wandering around the NRM on Wednesday I was struck by how different the engines, steam and diesel, were wrt colour. Then I persuaded John Arthur of the NRM to go round the Great Hall with me with one of the colour match cards. The result was illuminating! With the exception of D8000 all engines matched the card no matter the lighting they were clearly a match from Lode Star to D200.

I think the odd one out, D8000, has to do with the way that the synthetic version of the paint ages, but I’m unsure. All I can say is it has the same slightly greyish version of deep bronze green that I remember diesels but not steamers had in the fifties /sixties.

[markw]

British Racing Green was/is a darker green than GWR/BR Green.

Aston Martin and Napier have used 'British Racing Green' that is lighter than GWR/BR green, there is no specific shade for British Racing Green, different teams, manufacturers, individual drivers have used many different shades.

 

https://petrolicious.com/articles/a-colorful-history-of-national-racing-hues-british-racing-green-2-of-4

[cctransuk]

Sorry, I just wanted to know! Now I do and I’m content!

 

So did those of us who remembered the original - and we were / are content.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[RedgateModels]

On 27/07/2018 at 07:01, peterfgf said:

Which one do you use for BR steam loco green please?

 

Peterfgf

Several BR Standards, one O Gauge Hymek down, will be used for an O gauge 33 and yes, that Vulcan Pannier Tank will be Rover Brooklands Green too so there 😉

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by RedgateModels

[davefrk]

When I was wandering around the NRM on Wednesday I was struck by how different the engines, steam and diesel, were wrt colour. Then I persuaded John Arthur of the NRM to go round the Great Hall with me with one of the colour match cards. The result was illuminating! With the exception of D8000 all engines matched the card no matter the lighting they were clearly a match from Lode Star to D200.

I think the odd one out, D8000, has to do with the way that the synthetic version of the paint ages, but I’m unsure. All I can say is it has the same slightly greyish version of deep bronze green that I remember diesels but not steamers had in the fifties /sixties.

Yes but David, that is in a museum and who's to say they weren't all re-painted with the same manufacturers paint. I thought we were talking about engines from many years ago painted in railway workshops. I do agree with you that the green did vary from works to works and through the ages, that's why I used to show customers colour swatches so they could decide on BR green or GWR early green, GWR late green (my preference) from Precision, Railmatch, or Cherry.

 

Dave Franks.

I have a landrover painted with Bronze Green PPG coach enamel on pale green undercoat and a friend has a similar Landrover painted Bronze Green 2 pack epoxy paint and they are totally different in sunlight.

[Compound2632]

Yes but David, that is in a museum and who's to say they weren't all re-painted with the same manufacturers paint. 

 

But that's exactly PB's point, surely? The perceived colour depends on context - lining and adjacent colours as well as lighting.

[45125]

The exact shade of the green varied between the manufacturers (Masons, Dulux, Williamsons etc) just as it does today. It also depends on which works painted them (and painters) I have seen painters mix various tins to paint locos so that the application remains constant on the loco.

[Porcy Mane]

It's all been said before! Over and over again.

 

I know we should never use preserved locos as examples but I've no doubt that the guys who were responsible for painting these two locos probably took more care in getting the correct shade of paint, and then applying it than a BR works ever did. So the question, as ever, is which "shade" is correct?

 

 

Maybe we should start another thread correct size numerals and don't get me started on the correct rendition of duck egg (or was it eggshell?) blue!

 

So back to this photo:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134657-br-locomotive-green/&do=findComment&comment=3190083

 

The two green Hymecs are illuminated by the same natural lightsource. The skirt green on both locos (BSS 2660-5-062 if my OCD serves me correctly) is virtually identical in shade but the "dark" green above, markedly different. A difference that can't be put down to weathering effects, angle of light falling on the loco, painters brush strokes, etc., etc., etc ad infinitum.

 

P

[Irish_R_M]

I always held the belief that British Racing Green was as a "hat tip" to the 1903 Gordon Bennett Cup race held in Ireland - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1903_Gordon_Bennett_Cup, and that they chose a colour which was green with more yellow in it, rather than, for example, the maunsell green which has a blue hue. If anything, D123, by that logic, is perfect, as there's no blue in it, whereas D5185 has a nice spoonful in there.  Rich. 

[Il Grifone]

Aston Martin and Napier have used 'British Racing Green' that is lighter than GWR/BR green, there is no specific shade for British Racing Green, different teams, manufacturers, individual drivers have used many different shades.

 

https://petrolicious.com/articles/a-colorful-history-of-national-racing-hues-british-racing-green-2-of-4

 

Once upon a time, I had a tin of paint (Humbrol I think, but it has long since gone hard and been thrown out) labelled 'British Racing Green'. Though a similar colour to Loco Green, it was quite a lot darker.

 

This reminded me that one my first efforts (I must have been about ten at the time and had decided it should appear in B.R.G.*) at repainting involved a Dinky Toy Ferrari and Hobbies Ltd. dark green paint. This came in a large tube and was rather thick so the results were less than perfect....

 

* We used to race them in the playground by seeing whose car would go farthest. This involved much oil and damage to the cars....

Edited July 28, 2018 by Il Grifone

[stewartingram]

People getting hung up with a particular name for a shade of colour really irks me. For heavens sake, IT IS JUST A NAME. So what if Humbrol, Halfords, Dulux or whatever call it (say) Brunswick Green, it is the shade of the colour that matters, they could all be different. Try Stroudleys "Improved Engine Green for taste!

 

Stewart

[PenrithBeacon]

Yes but David, that is in a museum and who's to say they weren't all re-painted with the same manufacturers paint. I thought we were talking about engines from many years ago painted in railway workshops. I do agree with you that the green did vary from works to works and through the ages, that's why I used to show customers colour swatches so they could decide on BR green or GWR early green, GWR late green (my preference) from Precision, Railmatch, or Cherry.

 

Dave Franks.

I have a landrover painted with Bronze Green PPG coach enamel on pale green undercoat and a friend has a similar Landrover painted Bronze Green 2 pack epoxy paint and they are totally different in sunlight.

John Arthur and I compared the colour card with Lode Star (last painted in the mid-fifties), Evening Star (1980s), Ellerman Lines (1970s), Deltic(? unsure) and D200 (?) and they were clearly the same colour.

 

D8000 (1988) has aged very differently to the others but it looks like the slightly grey dark green I remember from the 50s-60s period. I don’t know why!!!!

Edited July 28, 2018 by PenrithBeacon

[2750Papyrus]

I believe the late Malcolm Crawley referred to the BR shade as "cowpat green"...….

[Graham456]

Dave Franks.

I have a landrover painted with Bronze Green PPG coach enamel on pale green undercoat and a friend has a similar Landrover painted Bronze Green 2 pack epoxy paint and they are totally different in sunlight.

Haveing ignored this topic until now because I have heard it all befor over 40 years about something called deep bronze green and what colour it is regarding code no's pan no's who's is the best match!

Nearly every one ignores the variables! Ranging from paint manufactures,varnishes,application,mood of painter, then what it did for a liveing not to forget wheather it was kept in a shed or outside when not in use,

And I am talking about series one Land Rover's but which bit dosent apply to locos as well

P S the only one which is so wrong is Hornby GWR green

P P S how can you apply paint codes to paint pre paint codes existing?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Graham456

[Clive Mortimore]

It's all been said before! Over and over again.

 

I know we should never use preserved locos as examples but I've no doubt that the guys who were responsible for painting these two locos probably took more care in getting the correct shade of paint, and then applying it than a BR works ever did. So the question, as ever, is which "shade" is correct?

 

GCR-L'borough-18-077-D5185&D123-EditSm.jpg

 

Maybe we should start another thread correct size numerals and don't get me started on the correct rendition of duck egg (or was it eggshell?) blue!

 

So back to this photo:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134657-br-locomotive-green/&do=findComment&comment=3190083

 

The two green Hymecs are illuminated by the same natural lightsource. The skirt green on both locos (BSS 2660-5-062 if my OCD serves me correctly) is virtually identical in shade but the "dark" green above, markedly different. A difference that can't be put down to weathering effects, angle of light falling on the loco, painters brush strokes, etc., etc., etc ad infinitum.

 

P

Hi Porcy

 

Your photo of the Hymeks and Duff is a great example of the same colour looking different. All 3 green locos would have had BR Spec 30a green applied to them but all three appear not to be the same shade. Hopefully Railmatch, Precision, and Humbrol continue to manufacture their BR green to their present standards so we as modellers can represent the in service variations as found on the real things 60 to 50 years ago.

[coachmann]

Only amateurs get hung up on paint colour. Professional model painters don't. Rather than have cellulose paint mixed to pattern, 'Bracks', myself and several other full-timers adopted a standard colour that was constant and readily available in cellulose. It has been used ever since, and I noticed that at least one of the younger full-time model painters has adopted the same green. It is not, as far as I know, available from Halfords.

 

When it comes to model paints, Humbrol's so-called railway colours were a joke. 

Edited July 28, 2018 by coachmann

[Compound2632]

It is not, as far as I know, available from Halfords.

 

You're an old tease, Larry.

[coachmann]

You're an old tease, Larry.

Not intentional I can assure you. I am simply avoiding repeating myself on threads that deal with the same old issues every few months. The colour is B.S. 224 Deep Bronze Green. I get it from a trade supplier.

Edited July 28, 2018 by coachmann

[PenrithBeacon]

Not intentional I can assure you. I am simply avoiding repeating myself on threads that deal with the same old issues every few months. The colour is B.S. 224 Deep Bronze Green. I get it from a trade supplier.

Agreed!

[The Johnster]

Tease or not, Coachy has the right approach to this.  Personally, because I model in a domestic environment where painty smells are objected, and I don't much like them myself, I use acrylics, more specifically Revell 36/40 Black Green Matt, for green locos, and I reckon it looks enough like locomotive green for my 1950s BR Western Region in South Wales purposes, and I like the semi-matt finish.  It looks better (IMHO) if a standard paint is used across all your locos; differences can be invoked with weathering or a coat of matt or (if you really must) gloss varnish, but the basic colour is the same, as it should be.  Even if it is not actually spot on correct (the different lighting conditions on your layout will negate that anyway), it is desirable that all the green locos are the same colour, even if it's a bit off.

 

You can say the same about black of course, and I use Tamiya XF33 Rubber Black for locos, because I like the flat finish and the slight coal dusty look it gives them.  Again, it can be altered with varnishes and/or weathering.  Decide on a standard colour, stick with it, and forget it; there are more important things to worry about, such as when is the Bachman 94xx going to appear?

[Il Grifone]

It's all been said before! Over and over again.

 

I know we should never use preserved locos as examples but I've no doubt that the guys who were responsible for painting these two locos probably took more care in getting the correct shade of paint, and then applying it than a BR works ever did. So the question, as ever, is which "shade" is correct?

 

GCR-L'borough-18-077-D5185&D123-EditSm.jpg

 

Maybe we should start another thread correct size numerals and don't get me started on the correct rendition of duck egg (or was it eggshell?) blue!

 

So back to this photo:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/134657-br-locomotive-green/&do=findComment&comment=3190083

 

The two green Hymecs are illuminated by the same natural lightsource. The skirt green on both locos (BSS 2660-5-062 if my OCD serves me correctly) is virtually identical in shade but the "dark" green above, markedly different. A difference that can't be put down to weathering effects, angle of light falling on the loco, painters brush strokes, etc., etc., etc ad infinitum.

 

P

 

To my eye and memory (both fallible) the one on the right. IIRC there were two sizes of numerals.

 

Close examination of the centre Hymek in the other picture shows that she isn't even the same shade all over, The right hand cab in particular appears to be a different green which looks very much the same as the Hymek on the right. It is possible they are painted different shades, but I would put it down to weathering.

 

I can remember freshly painted locomotives which were a bright green and/or black, whereas most were some shade of dirty grey/black even if green underneath. Sometimes the number had been cleaned showing the paint colour (not very often). I recall seeing a 97xx pannier tank in the late fifties with her GWR 'shirt button' still showing under the grime. Not a trace of green however, just an all over uniform dirty grey.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Il Grifone

[trustytrev]

Hello,

      All this fuss about historical paint colours really makes me smile. Nobody has even considered or mentioned the fundamental action of stirring the paint in its container before use. I am sure the stirring of a painter in a workshop of old after a hard night before in the pub would bear little resemblance to that proposed by some clip board carrying checker in an office at the other end of the country. The chances for paint jobs to vary from one day to another or place to place is not really that unlikely.

trustytrev.

PS: a bit like the spell check that insists on American versions while I type this.

[Chuffed 1]

FWIW, back in the sixties I had the Triang Albert Hall as a Christmas present, I think 1965 (just as the last Halls went for scrap). I was struck at the time how the shade of green was more accurate than the Hornby castle my brother had, having a blacker, flatter tinge.

Brunswick Green was specified on an Airfix City of Truro I had around the same time.  I remember it well as both my brothers and I hadn't a clue what shade this was. I also remember that the few ER locos I saw had a seemingly lighter shade of green (as did the maroon Mk1s). A different cleaning regimen perhaps?

I fully endorse the previous statement re: City of Birmingham. Maybe Lode Star is a different shade, and then again Caerphilly Castle should be in Swindon Dark Green as well?

[The Johnster]

Exactly the same paint, from exactly the same tin, applied within a few seconds of exactly the same time, is capable of looking (but not actually being) radically different on exactly the same surface in exactly the same lighting conditions simply by virtue of the size and shape of the painted object, or the colour and shading of surrounding objects. 

 

This fact should be taken into due consideration in all such discussions, possibly to the extent of silencing them; it is a subject about which it is impossible in most practical senses to express anything other than a subjective opinion as opposed to an objectively determined fact. 

 

In in other words, close enough will do for me!