RMB Diagram 97 details [1801-12]

[D1072]

This is a request for detail differences between the various batches of Mk1 RMB Miniature Buffets.

 

Batch 1; Diagram 97, Lot 30485 [York 1957] were 1801-1812.    These were basically a TSO with two sets of seating bays removed to one side of the centre door only and replaced by the buffet section.

They differ from the more familiar batch 2; Diagram 98, as modelled by Hornby and Bachmann, which have an extra pantry on the buffet side at the other side of the centre door, with one less window and a bay of seats less as a result.

 

Batch 2 were lots 30520/507/670/702, coaches 1813-1882.

The general arrangement diagrams shown on the Easybuild coaches website appear to say that Diagram 99 had an identical body to Dia 98, but were built with Commonwealth bogies.

 

Somewhere (and it could well have been on RM Web, but I can't find it); I've come across some info about different positions of roof vents and roof pipework on the Diagram 97 coaches.

 

Does anyone have any information?

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

[stovepipe]

These should help

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28843-mark-1-rmb-diagram-97/

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115727-mk1-rmb-diagram-97-roof/

[srihaggis]

Maybe i've misunderstood both the OP and the words in the link, i've worked in 1811 and that has both the counter and the 1 bay of seating removed for a storage cupboard with a sliding door on it?

[Bomag]

Maybe i've misunderstood both the OP and the words in the link, i've worked in 1811 and that has both the counter and the 1 bay of seating removed for a storage cupboard with a sliding door on it?

 

As stated in the link the missing storage cupboard was added in a later rebuild (which was probably the same time some of lot 30485 were also fitted with ETH, air brakes and B4 bogies). 1811 was withdrawn in August 81 so would have run about half its service life with the cupboard.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Bomag

[D1072]

Maybe i've misunderstood both the OP and the words in the link, i've worked in 1811 and that has both the counter and the 1 bay of seating removed for a storage cupboard with a sliding door on it?

There appear to be seven of the initial batch of 12 in preservation; when I travelled in the MRC's coach I noted that it was the same as the larger batch of diagram 98/99.

I have a 1957 abc of BR Mk1 coaches which shows the original arrangement.    Stovepipe's posts above clear up the confusion - all of the first batch of twelve were converted to later specification by removing another four seats and adding the store, probably in the 70's.   However, the original batch retain a different arrangement of roof ventilators and rainstrips.

Thanks Stovepipe!

[srihaggis]

Thanks for the info - I must admit from a non-topic related relevance, having been so used to travelling in/on 1811, when I was in an RMB just before xmas on the mainline I thought to my self this can't be an RMB, just something not quite right, I put it down to the coach being rammed with people making it look odd, but now I know! Thanks

[MJI]

I have seen 1808 and 1811 at GWR

[srihaggis]

GWR sold 1811 around 2006.

[Davexoc]

Lifted from Hugh Longworth's book of 2013;

1801-1812 Lot No. 30485 - Diag. 97 on BR1 bogies, 48 seats - 2 refurbished to RBR and several received B4s - 3 scrapped

1813-1837 Lot No. 30520 - Diag. 99 on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 4 refubished to RBR - 12 scrapped, 2 mainline registered

1838-1852 Lot No. 30507 - Diag. 98 on BR1 bogies, 44 seats - 1 refurbished to RBR, 5 got Commonwealths and 4 more B5s - 5 scrapped, 2 mainline regd.

1853-1864 Lot No. 30670 - Diag. 99 on on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 7 refurbished to RBR - 1 scrapped, 4 mainline regd.

1865-1882 Lot No. 30702 - Diag. 99 on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 9 refurbished to RBR - 3 scrapped, 1 mainline regd.

 

All were built at Wolverton except for the original batch which were York products.

 

Hope that is useful,

 

Dave

[mike hughes]

Isn’t it typical as saw 1807 at the Mid Hants diesel gala last Saturday, can’t remember if took any photos of it in

 

Michael

[Bomag]

Lifted from Hugh Longworth's book of 2013;

1801-1812 Lot No. 30485 - Diag. 97 on BR1 bogies, 48 seats - 2 refurbished to RBR and several received B4s - 3 scrapped

1813-1837 Lot No. 30520 - Diag. 99 on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 4 refubished to RBR - 12 scrapped, 2 mainline registered

1838-1852 Lot No. 30507 - Diag. 98 on BR1 bogies, 44 seats - 1 refurbished to RBR, 5 got Commonwealths and 4 more B5s - 5 scrapped, 2 mainline regd.

1853-1864 Lot No. 30670 - Diag. 99 on on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 7 refurbished to RBR - 1 scrapped, 4 mainline regd.

1865-1882 Lot No. 30702 - Diag. 99 on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 9 refurbished to RBR - 3 scrapped, 1 mainline regd.

 

All were built at Wolverton except for the original batch which were York products.

 

Hope that is useful,

 

Dave

 

No RMBs were refurbished to RBR (AJ4xx), some did have a refresh of the catering facilities but I don' think that they had their TOPS codes changed (AN20x) 

[Wickham Green]

Lifted from Hugh Longworth's book of 2013;

1801-1812 Lot No. 30485 - Diag. 97 on BR1 bogies, 48 seats - 2 refurbished to RBR and several received B4s - 3 scrapped

1813-1837 Lot No. 30520 - Diag. 99 on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 4 refubished to RBR - 12 scrapped, 2 mainline registered

1838-1852 Lot No. 30507 - Diag. 98 on BR1 bogies, 44 seats - 1 refurbished to RBR, 5 got Commonwealths and 4 more B5s - 5 scrapped, 2 mainline regd.

1853-1864 Lot No. 30670 - Diag. 99 on on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 7 refurbished to RBR - 1 scrapped, 4 mainline regd.

1865-1882 Lot No. 30702 - Diag. 99 on Commonwealth bogies, 44 seats - 9 refurbished to RBR - 3 scrapped, 1 mainline regd.

 

All were built at Wolverton except for the original batch which were York products.

 

Hope that is useful,

 

Dave

Did the fitting of Commonwealth bogies normally justify a new Diagram  -  or was there something else different about Dia.99 ?

[Davexoc]

No RMBs were refurbished to RBR (AJ4xx), some did have a refresh of the catering facilities but I don' think that they had their TOPS codes changed (AN20x) 

RBR referred to all refurbished buffet vehicles fitted with fluorescent lighting, with the TOPS codes remaining the same as built to designate the actual type.

 

Did the fitting of Commonwealth bogies normally justify a new Diagram  -  or was there something else different about Dia.99 ?

Yes because it changes the weight of the vehicle.

[Bomag]

RBR referred to all refurbished buffet vehicles fitted with fluorescent lighting, with the TOPS codes remaining the same as built to designate the actual type.

 

No, the TOPS codes were changed on refurbishment - both the RBR (exRBK) and RBR (exRB) had different codes in the AJ4xx range - AJ403 instead of AJ402 or AJ411 for exRB. RBR (exRU) changed from AL4xx to AJ4xx on refurbishment and gaining a Buffet. Facelifted RMBs were still referred to as RMB.

[Wickham Green]

 

Yes because it changes the weight of the vehicle.

Having tracked-down the Diagram on http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/CoachingStockDiagramBookIssue.pdf I concede that the bogies do, indeed, seem to be the only difference between 98 & 99 ............. but I've yet to find any other vehicle type where such a change of bogies resulted in a new Diagram - other than experimental types - so I'm not convinced this is the whole story !

[CloggyDog]

Just checked my 1974 RCTS coaching stock book, which shows W1803/M1805/E1808-10/M1811/2 as still being 48-seat.

 

Bogie-wise, 1801/2/4/5/8-12 all shown as BR1, 1803/6/7 on B4s

 

All were 48-seat by the 1978 issue.

 

I'm about to start SC1829 (44 seat, BR1s) in H0 from a pair of Lima BSKs (which will also yield me another BG)

 

 

[MJI]

1808 in 1986 had the pantry window plated over

 

 

 

[diyceejay]

Can anybody tell me when W1803 was converted? I'm modelling 1982 Penzance and literally about to renumber and insert a window into my farish model E1834...when I chanced on this thread....I'm hoping it was pre '82 to save me the jointing a fillet issues....!

[CloggyDog]

On 28/07/2022 at 18:48, diyceejay said:

Can anybody tell me when W1803 was converted? I'm modelling 1982 Penzance and literally about to renumber and insert a window into my farish model E1834...when I chanced on this thread....I'm hoping it was pre '82 to save me the jointing a fillet issues....!

 

All had been done by 1978, based on the RCTS CS book of that year. 

 

W1803 listed as 44 seat, dual-heat, B4 bogies in 1978. 

 

Hth

[45655]

On 05/06/2018 at 22:13, mike hughes said:

Isn’t it typical as saw 1807 at the Mid Hants diesel gala last Saturday, can’t remember if took any photos of it in

 

Michael

MHR had 1806 and 1807 at one time.  Unfortunately 1806 was burnt out by vandals some years ago.

 

Both were acquired in 1982 after they had been refurbished and held in reserve for the Pope's visit to the UK in that year and both had the store added in place of a seating bay on the opposite side of the centre vestibule to the servery.  However the interior decor was completely different - 1806 was varnished wood and 1807 is Formica.

 

MHR also had 1840 and 1851 from the later batch.  They also had Formica interiors but the main visible difference from the earlier examples seemed to be that the window units were of the later pattern with rubber glands.  1840 was ex-Glasgow and had some pretty serious locking arrangements on the servery and store!  I believe this vehicle is now owned by WCRC.  1851 arrived stripped of seats and has seat units removed from 4 CEP electric units when these were refurbished.  This vehicle is still at MHR but is currently out of traffic.

 

The last time I encountered an RMB on the main line was on the Liverpool Street - Cambridge run in the early days of mobile phones (before everybody had one).  The centre vestibule between the servery and the store had been converted into a telephone kiosk.  I'm sure I have seen an example on a heritage railway somewhere (sorry I can't recall where) where the servery has been extended through the vestibule into the store, but I guess this is a post-BR modification.

 

Keith

Alton.

 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, 45655 said:

MHR had 1806 and 1807 at one time.  Unfortunately 1806 was burnt out by vandals some years ago.

I well remember the day I was in the mess at Ropley and someone entered and announced the 1806s boiler had been condemned ............... there was a stunned silence for a few moments until it was reallised that he wasn't referring to 'U-Boat' No.31806 which was also being restored at the time !