Rapido LB&SCR Class E1 0-6-0T

[dibber25]

My finger is in for at least one or two. I have a prospective layout in mind, which is lined up for these little beasties.

 

Nice one Rapido.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

Thanks, but it's Model Rail who have commissioned the 'E1' to be made by Rapido. (CJL)

[Compound2632]

Looking at the list of variants in SEM's opening post, I note that there will be a variety of what someone referred to as "pretty liveries", none, in my opinion, prettier, or should I say more handsome, than LNWR lined black - a livery that suits any engine, even one of Midland ancestry. 

 

Clearly the IEG passenger livery will be a popular variant. My limited understanding of this class is that they were much used on short-distance goods work - tripping in the London area, for instance (many joint lines...) My question is, was there any criterion for an engine being in the passenger or goods green livery? Is there much known about which engines wore which and when?

 

Apologies if this has already been addressed - I didn't see it on a cursory scan through. Feel free to kick me in the direction of the relevant posts!

 

Written by one who has accidentally found himself building some Brighton wagons c. 1902...

[Edwardian]

57 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Looking at the list of variants in SEM's opening post, I note that there will be a variety of what someone referred to as "pretty liveries", none, in my opinion, prettier, or should I say more handsome, than LNWR lined black - a livery that suits any engine, even one of Midland ancestry. 

 

Clearly the IEG passenger livery will be a popular variant. My limited understanding of this class is that they were much used on short-distance goods work - tripping in the London area, for instance (many joint lines...) My question is, was there any criterion for an engine being in the passenger or goods green livery? Is there much known about which engines wore which and when?

 

Apologies if this has already been addressed - I didn't see it on a cursory scan through. Feel free to kick me in the direction of the relevant posts!

 

Written by one who has accidentally found himself building some Brighton wagons c. 1902...

 

For c.1902, only Stroudley Goods Green will suit an E1.

 

The announced locomotives include:

 

No.97 Honfleur, in IEG. 

 

Built in 1874 as one of the first six, The were apparently all out-shopped in Goods Green and initially all allocated to Brighton.  

 

There is a physical difference in relation to the first six, which I assume MR/Rapido have picked up on, in the sharp angle to the top of the bunker rear, as opposed to the curve used for the others.

 

IEG was applied to No.97 and 20 odd classmates in 1880, when upgraded to as a temporary expedient to deal with increased suburban traffic from London Bridge and Victoria. MR's model should, then, feature Westinghouse brake cylinders.  With the advent of the D tanks in 1881-2, the need for the E1s to work passenger trains, for which, I think it's fair to say, they were not well suited, fell away.

 

Returned to goods work, the dates at which they were returned to Goods Green would be worth knowing.  RCTS says that in many cases IEG was retained until the next visit to Brighton, but that New Cross repainted some well in advance of this.   

 

No.127 Poitiers in Goods Green.

 

This will be a first, I think? An RTR loco in Stroudley Goods Green.  What a treat! I really look forward to seeing how this green, with its subtle lining comes out.

 

Built in 1878.  By the mid-1890s she was at Horsham, as was No.97, and they shared local shunting and goods duties, and worked up to Guildford with a daily goods.

 

These two should, therefore, pair well with the forthcoming Rails/Dapol Terrier, Boxhill, as the model should be representative of an 1880s condition loco, before the removal of the condensing pipe.  So, there's a nice 3-tank 1880s Brighton micro in the offing.  

 

No.B96, Marsh Umber

 

Ex-Salzberg, built in 1883.  Note the spelling. She was a Three Bridges loco at Grouping. The picture in MR shows her March 1927 condition, with Marsh boiler, safety valve and chimney, still in Marsh Umber and with the later LBSC lettering, i.e. without the ampersand.  She was converted to E1R the following October.

 

 

[Compound2632]

Thanks for this. As I've been poking around the market for Brighton wagons, it's become evident that it's one of a very few lines (the others being the Chatham and to some extent the South Eastern) where it's actually easier to model c. 1882 than c. 1902! So to that extent the IEG E1 is a winner. I'll be sticking with c. 1902; 2020 could be an expensive year for tank engines. One drawback is that the available Brighton goods brake van kit is a relatively expensive one, from Roxey. 

 

We'll see...

[truffy]

On ‎16‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 13:08, dibber25 said:

Please see Model Rail's Facebook page or the Model Rail website for future updates on the progress of this model. (CJL)

 

I failed to find any mention of this on the MR website. Nothing on Rapido UK either.

 

And is it just because I don't have an account for Mr Zuckerberg to abuse, or is Facebook always a mess?

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, truffy said:

 

I failed to find any mention of this on the MR website. Nothing on Rapido UK either.

 

And is it just because I don't have an account for Mr Zuckerberg to abuse, or is Facebook always a mess?

At present there is nothing to report. The '16xx' is next and as we have only recently received the last of the 'J70s' the timetable has slipped a little. Announcements will generally be made on Facebook or the Model Rail website as RMweb belongs to British Railway Modelling magazine. (CJL)

[phil gollin]

.

 

Can someone confirm that this model is still going ahead (now that the Class 11 and 12 diesel shunters - via Heljan - have been announced) ?

 

If so, any idea when ordering will be opened ?

 

Thanks.

 

.

Edited July 14, 2019 by phil gollin

[Pre Grouping fan]

My understanding was that 16XX Pannier was to take priority over the E1 at the design stage. So now that Pre-Orders have opened up for that I assume the design stage is done/almost done and the E1 will now move forward.

 

As Heljan will be manufacturing the Class 11's I assume they will move along beside the E1 project.

[dibber25]

The 'E1' has been commissioned from Rapido Trains and will follow behind the '16XX'. It is not affected by the Class  11 diesel shunter which is being commissioned from Heljan. Ordering for the 16xx opened quite recently so it is likely the E1 will be around 12 months behind the 16xx. (CJL)

Edited July 14, 2019 by dibber25

[phil gollin]

.

 

Thanks,  excellent news.

 

Good luck with all the new models.

 

.

[mdvle]

16 hours ago, phil gollin said:

Can someone confirm that this model is still going ahead (now that the Class 11 and 12 diesel shunters - via Heljan - have been announced) ?

 

A posting on the Class 11/12 thread indicates they aren't scheduled to arrive until 2022/2023 thus there would appear to be lots of space for the E1 to fit in after the 16XX.

[Compound2632]

On 24/02/2019 at 09:37, Compound2632 said:

One drawback is that the available Brighton goods brake van kit is a relatively expensive one, from Roxey. 

 

 

Poking around in G. Bixley et al., Southern Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1985), I'm starting to think that Billinton's first design of goods brake van, SR Diagram 1566, looks like a relatively straightforward scratch-build...

 

I feel a transfer goods trip working c. 1902 coming on: E1 in Stroudley goods green; a couple of opens A and D (5&9 Models); cattle wagon; two or three Stephenson Clarke wagons; sheeted Midland D299; Billinton brake. 

 

Where was traffic exchanged between the Brighton and the northern lines?

[Oldddudders]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Where was traffic exchanged between the Brighton and the northern lines?

Trip working via the WLL?

[Nearholmer]

Or the ELL, although perhaps not coal wagons. I think that E1 worked goods to Shoreditch and Liverpool Street.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Trip working via the WLL?

 

For traffic from the North Western but what about Midland from Childs Hill / Cricklewood / Brent (as you will)?

 

24 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Or the ELL, although perhaps not coal wagons. I think that E1 worked goods to Shoreditch and Liverpool Street.

 

For traffic from the Great Northern and Midland via the widened lines, and Great Eastern, I suppose. 

 

My understanding is that the Midland engines at least, and probably the Great Northern, worked through to the south of the river.

 

This is Guy Rixon territory - also time to revisit the mothballed Basilica Fields website.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

“My understanding is that the Midland engines at least, and probably the Great Northern, worked through to the south of the river.”

 

My understanding also, and very definitely the case for coal trains to the MR and GNR owned coal depots in South London, which is why I suggested the ELL workings, which I know were LBSCR ones.

 

[Wickham Green]

Don't forget that there were Midland and Great Northern ( ( NOT M&GNR ) tanks retaining condensing gear well into BR days whereas everything south of the river had lost it long before ........... mind you non condensing locos certainly worked through the Widened Lines after the war - there are pictures of post-grouping 3F tanks, at least .... I'm not sure whether the J50s condensed - there are plenty of photos of them emerging from the depths at Holborn.

[Oldddudders]

Where exchange traffic was concerned, it seems more than likely that both railways worked trips across London, on an out-and-back basis. This was true in later eras, right up to the demise of wagonload as a major traffic.

 

And, of course, LBSCR locos ran passenger trains through as far as Rugby with the Sunny South Special, jointly with the LNWR. 

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Trip working via the WLL?

There were definitely trips to the (G)WR from Longhedge, Hither Green, and Norwood Junction via the WLL.   As far as I know trips from the SR to the GNR side ran via the ELL as already mentioned. Overall Cross London tripping between yards tended to be worked on an out & back basis and in some cases only one of the railways/Regions did all the tripping - for example between the GE side and the Western the tripping seems to have been wholly worked by GE based engines.

 

There was also a quite complex pattern of Running Powers south of the river for the 'northern' companies to serve there various depots although by the 1930s some of these Powers were not exercised which suggests some of the coal yards might have been served via transfers via local marshalling yards.  I do have a full list of Running Powers across London but they should not necessarily be confused with tripping between yards where in some cases Running Powerts definitely did not exist.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Don't forget that there were Midland and Great Northern ( ( NOT M&GNR ) tanks retaining condensing gear well into BR days whereas everything south of the river had lost it long before ........... mind you non condensing locos certainly worked through the Widened Lines after the war - there are pictures of post-grouping 3F tanks, at least .... I'm not sure whether the J50s condensed - there are plenty of photos of them emerging from the depths at Holborn.

 

Am I right in thinking that no Brighton Es were condensing? (Some As were, weren't they? - for the Thames Tunnel.) If so, that would imply that any cross-London tripping by Es was in the west. Although I quite fancy a little flight of fancy micro set in a deep brick-lined cut; a Kirtley back-tank (if I'm feeling picturesque) or one of Johnson's big condensing tanks - 2441 Class - if I'm feeling brutal) emerging from the stygian gloom of the tunnel (smoke effects?) to exchange traffic with the waiting Class E and Billinton brake. (Of course in reality exchange was done at yards out futher south in the open air where there was a bit more elbow-room for some serious shunting.)

 

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Where exchange traffic was concerned, it seems more than likely that both railways worked trips across London, on an out-and-back basis. This was true in later eras, right up to the demise of wagonload as a major traffic.

 

And, of course, LBSCR locos ran passenger trains through as far as Rugby with the Sunny South Special, jointly with the LNWR. 

 

I'm probably stretching it to have an E tripping to Brent...

 

... and Es weren't used on the Sunny South! That was Marsh's superheated atlantic tanks, whose economy of water consumption made such an impression on Bowen-Cooke.

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

There were definitely trips to the (G)WR from Longhedge, Hither Green, and Norwood Junction via the WLL.   As far as I know trips from the SR to the GNR side ran via the ELL as already mentioned. Overall Cross London tripping between yards tended to be worked on an out & back basis and in some cases only one of the railways/Regions did all the tripping - for example between the GE side and the Western the tripping seems to have been wholly worked by GE based engines.

 

There was also a quite complex pattern of Running Powers south of the river for the 'northern' companies to serve there various depots although by the 1930s some of these Powers were not exercised which suggests some of the coal yards might have been served via transfers via local marshalling yards.  I do have a full list of Running Powers across London but they should not necessarily be confused with tripping between yards where in some cases Running Powerts definitely did not exist.

 

The earlier one looks, the more complex. On the passenger side, Victoria, in which the Great Western had a part share, was home to cross-London services not just of the Great Western but also the Midland. 

[The Stationmaster]

Not to forget that at one time (albeit I think only for the duration of one timetable) there was an LBSCR service into Paddington. 

[Nearholmer]

GN and MR goods ran via the Widened Lines and Snow Hill.

 

Goods vis the ELL was fairly limited because it had to either run into Liverpool Street and reverse, or use the limited capacity wagon hoist at Shoreditch. I believe that only GER traffic, not GNR traffic, went that way.

[GreenGiraffe22]

was searching photos of E1s to see where they got about to, here is 2606 announced by Model Rail behind a West Country at Brighton which is one I intend to purchase

 

 

Also announced no.96 , although in a slightly earlier condition at Three Bridges 

 

 

Not announced but a livery that's a little different, perhaps for a future, future release

 

 

Currently looking forward to these more than any other announcement on the market, can't wait to see how the project progresses!

 

[Jack P]

On 11/08/2019 at 08:40, GreenGiraffe22 said:

was searching photos of E1s to see where they got about to, here is 2606 announced by Model Rail behind a West Country at Brighton which is one I intend to purchase

 

Currently looking forward to these more than any other announcement on the market, can't wait to see how the project progresses!

 

 

That's a really excellent picture.

Hornby really need to do an original cab Bulleid so that we can re-create this!

[Compound2632]

On 10/08/2019 at 21:40, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Also announced no.96 , although in a slightly earlier condition at Three Bridges 

 

 

I've been rather intrigued by the TO BE RETURNED TO LONDON marking on the Midland D299 wagon in the background! (Comments here please.)  Looking through the Brighton photos, I'm catching glimpses of D299s in several...

 

Going back to the discussion of cross-London transfers from the northern lines, I was rather taken with this photo - apologies for the wrong E-number. Dated 1906, so pre-pooling. The leading section of the train is coal off the Great Northern. I think the caption is in error: the first wagon is Dinnington not Charrington; Dinnington Main colliery being in the South Yorkshire coalfield. It first produced coal in 1905 ; it's unclear to me how coal was shipped out prior to the opening of the South Yorkshire Joint.