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Model Rail announce GWR Class 1600 0-6-0PT via Rapido


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51 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Overly complex design costs and this will come out of Model Rail's profit margin. If indeed this model has been designed by the producing factory then they are squids in! Actually I think it's probably designed by Rapido and this issue ought to have been picked up by internal design reviews. 

 

I refer my honourable friend to my earlier response to his original statement.

 

I strongly doubt that the achieved level of 'out-of-the-box' detail and running capability could have been achieved with a less complex design - no capable designer would introduce needless complexity.

 

What my honourable friend wishes for is a less detailed / capable design for the majority of purchasers, so that he can more easily throw away the most expensive part of the model in order to spend more money achieving the niche result that he desires.

 

I'm afraid that I cannot characterise that stance as being reasonable.

 

John Isherwood.

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46 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I refer my honourable friend to my earlier response to his original statement.

 

I strongly doubt that the achieved level of 'out-of-the-box' detail and running capability could have been achieved with a less complex design - no capable designer would introduce needless complexity.

 

What my honourable friend wishes for is a less detailed / capable design for the majority of purchasers, so that he can more easily throw away the most expensive part of the model in order to spend more money achieving the niche result that he desires.

 

I'm afraid that I cannot characterise that stance as being reasonable.

 

John Isherwood.

Hi John,

 

I don't answer on David's behalf here, but I would respectfully draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that Messrs Bachmann have only just produced a model to rival the fidelity and sophistication of the 16XX, but have done so in a way that permits unreasonable folk like me ;) to take it's top off.

 

I would also draw your Honourable Personage's attention to the fact that I did most unambiguously say that such views were indeed representative of a tiny niche only, really rather insignificant and unimportant and with no pretence of being reasonable whatsoever!

 

But I will say it again, I am very grateful to Model Rail and Rapido for choosing the 16XX for their project. Even converting one to P4 in the matter that Re6/6 is so bravely doing is quicker than building the whitemetal kit!

 

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2 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Hi John,

 

...

Even converting one to P4 in the matter that Re6/6 is so bravely doing is quicker than building the whitemetal kit!

 

But it requires a very much lower skill level, this is important to P4 modellers like me who aren't master craftsmen. 

In an earlier post you alluded to white goods being, quite often, throwaway items once they need repair. I suspect that this is the first British outline RTR model that will conform to that paradigm. I doubt if any professional model repairer would want to quote for taking this apart and repairing it. Assuming, of course, that spare parts will be avaliable. 

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1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

this is important to P4 modellers like me who aren't master craftsmen. 

 

David, I'm definitely not a master craftsman by any stretch of the imagination .....more a master bodger!

 

This conversion really is turning out to be straightforward (so far!) due to the excellent design of the parts below the running plate, (above it, I make no comment!) What is not so straightforward are my engineering skills. I'm just an 'average modeller' taking my time and planning each operation very slowly, thinking two steps ahead before doing anything. I don't want to ruin a lovely but expensive model for a lack of thought!

 

The current job is quartering the bushed Ultrascale wheels So far so good!

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2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Hi John,

 

I don't answer on David's behalf here, but I would respectfully draw Your Honour's attention to the fact that Messrs Bachmann have only just produced a model to rival the fidelity and sophistication of the 16XX, but have done so in a way that permits unreasonable folk like me ;) to take it's top off.

 

I would also draw your Honourable Personage's attention to the fact that I did most unambiguously say that such views were indeed representative of a tiny niche only, really rather insignificant and unimportant and with no pretence of being reasonable whatsoever!

 

But I will say it again, I am very grateful to Model Rail and Rapido for choosing the 16XX for their project. Even converting one to P4 in the matter that Re6/6 is so bravely doing is quicker than building the whitemetal kit!

 

 

Coincidenally enough, I have just descended from my workshop - known to SWMBO as 'The Play Room' - where I was applying etched plates and real coal to the 16XX, and coal to the 94XX; they are now standing adjacent to each other on the test track.

 

Having been unable to resist the temptation to trundle a few recently-built wagons up and down the tracks and admire the latest loco acquistions, I have to concede that they might easily have come from the same factory. Nonetheless, I feel that the 16XX has the edge where fidelity, sophistication and running qualities are concerned.

 

As a confirmed OO Luddite, the 16XX does all and more than I could wish - with the sole exception of the front coupling arrangements. Fortunately for me, I use the Peco / Hornby Dublo Simplex coupler, and I have managed to fit this in such a way that it is optimally located in relation to the buffer faces.

 

I have no problems whatsoever with those who choose to adapt RTR items for P4; I just felt that an outright dismissal on the basis of the exploded diagram in the instructions was a tad 'tetchy'.

 

John Isherwood.

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30 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Coincidenally enough, I have just descended from my workshop - known to SWMBO as 'The Play Room' - where I was applying etched plates and real coal to the 16XX, and coal to the 94XX; they are now standing adjacent to each other on the test track.

 

Having been unable to resist the temptation to trundle a few recently-built wagons up and down the tracks and admire the latest loco acquistions, I have to concede that they might easily have come from the same factory. Nonetheless, I feel that the 16XX has the edge where fidelity, sophistication and running qualities are concerned.

 

As a confirmed OO Luddite, the 16XX does all and more than I could wish - with the sole exception of the front coupling arrangements. Fortunately for me, I use the Peco / Hornby Dublo Simplex coupler, and I have managed to fit this in such a way that it is optimally located in relation to the buffer faces.

 

I have no problems whatsoever with those who choose to adapt RTR items for P4; I just felt that an outright dismissal on the basis of the exploded diagram in the instructions was a tad 'tetchy'.

 

John Isherwood.

And that of course is what it is all about.  The majority market - by a massive margin - for UK outline models is 00 and if a company wishes to make a profit that is the market it will go for if it gets involved in r-t-r.   Similarly as the overwhelming majority of British outline 00 models are made in China, wherever they happen to be designed, the parts which go into them will be what is available in China.    The result with the 16XX appears to be a generally rather good 00 model of a 16XX with only the front coupling being a visible (but solvable) blot on the landscape - in other words the commissioner, designer, and factory have largely succeeded in what they set out to do.

 

If what in all honesty is a pretty small minority want something which is easy to convert to P4. (so perhaps spoiling 'RE6/6s fun and experimentation in the process) will the additional sales to them meet the effect of the higher prices that making that simpler process by outnumbering lost sales at the non 'easy convert price' with new sales to the easy to convert market?    If someone is so sure that then they have only to 'do an SLW' with a steam outline loco commission in order to prove everybody else wrong all you need is something way in excess of £100,000 (or prepaid advance orders to create that necessary capital) and off you go.  But if you are prepared to risk that sort of money are you equally prepared to allow the possibility of a hundred or so 'convertible' models reducing your market for plain vanilla 00 sales?   I suspect one's approach  might be a bit different if you are risking your own or your employer's money rather than telling someone else how to spend theirs (but I may be wrong on that)?

 

BTW there are plenty of factories in China looking for model railway commission work so there should be no dfficulty proving everyone else is wrong.

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2 hours ago, cctransuk said:


Coincidenally enough, I have just descended from my workshop - known to SWMBO as 'The Play Room' -

Haha.....mine is called the playroom also, but I get my own back when Mrs BB wants to watch a film as the “cinema room” is in the same space :lol:

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

If what in all honesty is a pretty small minority want something which is easy to convert to P4. (so perhaps spoiling 'RE6/6s fun and experimentation in the process) will the additional sales to them meet the effect of the higher prices that making that simpler process by outnumbering lost sales at the non 'easy convert price' with new sales to the easy to convert market? 

To be honest, Mike, given the statistic that most OO RTR models either reside in display cabinets (or even don't come out of their pristine boxes), I suppose we should be grateful that there is a mechanism inside at all!

 

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15 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

........If what in all honesty is a pretty small minority want something which is easy to convert to P4. (so perhaps spoiling 'RE6/6s fun and experimentation in the process)

......who is having a lot of fun, albeit at a snail's pace! What would be nice Mike would be if just sufficient clearance between splashers and bogie frames were engineered in at the design stage, but hum ho, I can but dream(!), although space was sufficient with the Kernow Bullied diesel where the wheels dropped in perfectly IIRC.

 

Generally P4ers will usually get round most conversion obstacles with varying degrees of finesse or in my case the lack of it!

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2 hours ago, Re6/6 said:

......who is having a lot of fun, albeit at a snail's pace! What would be nice Mike would be if just sufficient clearance between splashers and bogie frames were engineered in at the design stage, but hum ho, I can but dream(!), although space was sufficient with the Kernow Bullied diesel where the wheels dropped in perfectly IIRC.

 

Generally P4ers will usually get round most conversion obstacles with varying degrees of finesse or in my case the lack of it!

Great to hear you're enjoying it John - but I knew you would anyway.   I think there can be a very distinct difference between steam outline and diesel/electric outline modeels and that is the matter of splashers.  I know the ability to go for thinner mouldings is improving but there still has to be sufficient space in the mould to allow the injected material to flow properly and evenly to every part of the tool and if that doesn't happen the moulding is rejected, it's unusable.  So I suspect designers might have to err on the side of caution and certainly talking to one designer his view was that it was unavoidable to go for thinner mouldings in that area therefore it was difficult to justify a more readily convertible loco.   Splashers are small and thus more critical that a three or four axle bogie side frame in moulding terms but even there the risk of going too thin is no doubt present as there is also the question of handling damage.

 

Whether models are, or aren't, going to spend their lives in display cases is an interesting point (some of mine very definitely aren't everyday runners but should I put a display case on any wall in this house I would no doubt be an ex-Stationmaster for the second time and on this occasion a sort of 'ex' which definitely does not appeal to me :butcher: ).   But the odd thing is that it seems to be teh devil's own to persuade 'manufacturers' to produce unpowered models of just about anything including diseasals which spent most of their working lives running round in pairs).

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18 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Haha.....mine is called the playroom also, but I get my own back when Mrs BB wants to watch a film as the “cinema room” is in the same space :lol:

You’ll have to do better than that! “Playroom” is more insulting than “cinema room”. :jester: I don’t mind cheerful insults. I refer to my roof space as my belfry, as in “bats in my belfry” and so long as sophisticated models are free of import duty because they are classified as “toys”, I’m all for it. 

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2 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

You’ll have to do better than that! “Playroom” is more insulting than “cinema room”. :jester: I don’t mind cheerful insults. I refer to my roof space as my belfry, as in “bats in my belfry” and so long as sophisticated models are free of import duty because they are classified as “toys”, I’m all for it. 

Yes but I like the cinema room as well......it was either a full around the room 7mm layout or a roundy roundy 4mm in one part and the cinema in the other half of the room......oh these compromises we make :D

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On 27/02/2021 at 19:24, Captain Kernow said:

To be honest, Mike, given the statistic that most OO RTR models either reside in display cabinets (or even don't come out of their pristine boxes), I suppose we should be grateful that there is a mechanism inside at all!

 

Is that right? In one way I am not surprised. But manufacturers do not appear to be driven by those stats if it is the case, given the continuous improvement in mechanisms and other features such as lights and sound - or even 'firebox glow', gimic though it may be. Those things require some sort of layout to appreciate, DC or DCC.

 

As an aside it is interesting to note that even Accurascale appear to have baulked at making their Manor easily convertible, though (i think i am right in saying) they have done that with all their wagons.

 

I think that it would help if there were more sources of 'drop in' finescale wheel sets to make RTR conversions easier. I have been a happy customer of Ultrascale. But having to wait months to get up and running, not to mention the cost, must put a lot of people off, particularly if they have an existing 'fleet' of any size to convert. 

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On 27/02/2021 at 12:08, Chris Chewter said:

I think with the right figure placement, firebox glow can be quite effective.

 

 

It also reflects through the windows when viewing from different angles:

 

 

Whilst I was originally sceptical, I quite like it! 

Doesn't look too bad from those angles, but when I ran mine while kneeling on the floor (so I was looking up at the model) I could see a bit of red glow below the tanks just in front of the cab - it looked like the fire had melted a hole in the bottom of the loco! Are they all like that or has mine been sub-optimally put together?

 

I won't be sending it back as it ran wonderfully - going smoothly through a shutting exercise when everything else stalls at least once. It does make a slightly unhealthy noise at higher speeds but I'm guessing that would iron itself out if I was able to run it in properly - my brother asked me to see how fast it could go but I can only turn the knob so fast and my shunting plank is quite short so by the time I'd reached full speed and started slowing down again the rear tension lock had put a slight scratch on the Peco buffer stop at the end of the siding. No damage to the loco fortunately.

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28 minutes ago, Rhydgaled said:

.... when I ran mine while kneeling on the floor (so I was looking up at the model) I could see a bit of red glow below the tanks just in front of the cab ....

 

Sounds a bit like the guest house claiming a sea view - but only if you stood on a chair and used binoculars!

 

John Isherwood.

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1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

Sounds a bit like the guest house claiming a sea view - but only if you stood on a chair and used binoculars!

 

John Isherwood.

It's there, between the land and the sky!

 

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38 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Sounds a bit like the guest house claiming a sea view - but only if you stood on a chair and used binoculars!

 

John Isherwood.


You will be wanting herds of wildebeeste sweeping majestically across the plains next! :D

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1 hour ago, Rhydgaled said:

Doesn't look too bad from those angles, but when I ran mine while kneeling on the floor (so I was looking up at the model) I could see a bit of red glow below the tanks just in front of the cab - it looked like the fire had melted a hole in the bottom of the loco! Are they all like that or has mine been sub-optimally put together?

 

Probably due to a hole in the fire - did it sound any different (you can usually hear a hole before you can easily see it)?  Maybe you should get a different model of a Fireman in the cab to make sure he's more attentivre to his job? :)

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9 hours ago, cctransuk said:
9 hours ago, Rhydgaled said:

.... when I ran mine while kneeling on the floor (so I was looking up at the model) I could see a bit of red glow below the tanks just in front of the cab  ....

 

Sounds a bit like the guest house claiming a sea view - but only if you stood on a chair and used binoculars!

 

John Isherwood.

My perspective wasn't much different to this (pic isn't mine) - surely kneeling on the floor gives a more-prototypical view of the model:D

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