Model Rail announce GWR Class 1600 0-6-0PT via Rapido

[The Stationmaster]

They definitely worked passenger services on the BP&GVR (picture in the 'Pannier Papers') and also in the Forest of Dean.  The "Pannier Papers' also implies that they worked passenger trains on the Severn & Wye.  I wouldn't be surprised if they worked passenger (workmen's) trains on the Highworth branch as they outlasted the 58XX and probably got on those trains before they went over to diesel haulage.  There is a published photo of one on a passenger train on the Tetbury branch.  So absolutely typically pannier tank territory in terms of passenger train working

 

Very relevantly in operational terms was the fact that they had steam pipes so were obviously intended right from the start as being suitable to work passenger trains and they had quoted passenger train loads in the WR Passenger Loads Books.  The only quirk about them was that they were classified as 2F but that wasn't really much of a quirk when you remember that the 57XX were classified 3F and the 94XX were classified 4F and both of those classes were regularly diagrammed on regular work (including trains carrying Class A headlamps in the case of the 94XX).

[Captain Kernow]

Good news about how this delightful loco is progressing. I am planning to order a couple, but I have one fairly major concern as regards the origins of this model.

 

I recently acquired a Model rail J70 tram engine and it's a real beauty. I think I got a bit carried away, but I reasoned that it had just as much right to run on my outrageously improbably Welsh light railway as a Terrier tank or other locos.

 

When I built some of the point work for 'Bethesda Sidings', I built them to OO-SF, ie. with a gauge of 16.2mm in parts (through the crossings), to improve the appearance of same.

 

This doesn't present a problem with any locos of stock that has what I consider the 'standard' OO back-to-back of 14.5mm. As such, Bachmann, Hornby, Dapol and Oxford Rail locos go through the OO-SF pointwork with no problems, as do my locos with Romford/Markits RP25 wheels.

 

When I tried the J70 loco, however, I found that it kept sticking on the OO-SF bits of 16.2mm gauge track. I checked the back-to-backs and they are 14.75mm.

 

I have the same problem with a Hattons/DJM 14XX (my second one, using the original chassis), where the back-to-back is 15mm.

 

I can deal with both locos, given time, but this will involve a partial (at least) dismantling of the chassis to deal with the back-to-backs. The 14XX is also border line for a new chassis anyway, given the problems some of us have been having with that particular loco, but the J70 is a lovely, sweet runner on plain track and also on non-OO-SF point work. I'm not looking forward to taking all that valve gear apart, but it will have to be done, if I want to run the loco on this particular layout.

 

My request/plea with regard to the 16XX, given that it's also from Rapido, is for the back-to-backs to be to the 'standard' 14.5mm, please and thus consistent with most other OO RTR manufacturers.

 

Many thanks.

 

[dibber25]

16 hours ago, NXEA! said:

Apart from the Dornoch branch, did any of the 16xx's have booked passenger work? I've seen the Tetbury branch mentioned. 

On the Tetbury branch there is one known (and photographed) instance of 1664 working the last end of term train for Westonbirt Girls School just a few days before the branch closed completely. The train was three coaches - a Collett full brake (for copious amounts of luggage, no doubt) and two LMS Stanier coaches. I presume it was taken over by something larger, onward from Kemble. '16xx's may have worked passenger trains on the branch prior to the arrival of railbuses in February 1959 but photographs generally show '58XX' 0-4-2Ts or '57XX' panniers when steam was in regular use. Trains often ran as mixed and involved shunting en route, at Culkerton. (CJL)

[dibber25]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Good news about how this delightful loco is progressing. I am planning to order a couple, but I have one fairly major concern as regards the origins of this model.

 

I recently acquired a Model rail J70 tram engine and it's a real beauty. I think I got a bit carried away, but I reasoned that it had just as much right to run on my outrageously improbably Welsh light railway as a Terrier tank or other locos.

 

When I built some of the point work for 'Bethesda Sidings', I built them to OO-SF, ie. with a gauge of 16.2mm in parts (through the crossings), to improve the appearance of same.

 

This doesn't present a problem with any locos of stock that has what I consider the 'standard' OO back-to-back of 14.5mm. As such, Bachmann, Hornby, Dapol and Oxford Rail locos go through the OO-SF pointwork with no problems, as do my locos with Romford/Markits RP25 wheels.

 

When I tried the J70 loco, however, I found that it kept sticking on the OO-SF bits of 16.2mm gauge track. I checked the back-to-backs and they are 14.75mm.

 

I have the same problem with a Hattons/DJM 14XX (my second one, using the original chassis), where the back-to-back is 15mm.

 

I can deal with both locos, given time, but this will involve a partial (at least) dismantling of the chassis to deal with the back-to-backs. The 14XX is also border line for a new chassis anyway, given the problems some of us have been having with that particular loco, but the J70 is a lovely, sweet runner on plain track and also on non-OO-SF point work. I'm not looking forward to taking all that valve gear apart, but it will have to be done, if I want to run the loco on this particular layout.

 

My request/plea with regard to the 16XX, given that it's also from Rapido, is for the back-to-backs to be to the 'standard' 14.5mm, please and thus consistent with most other OO RTR manufacturers.

 

Many thanks.

 

Rapido normally advise to check and, if necessary, adjust the back-to-back on their models, as the assembly method works within certain tolerances. However, the J70 does not include this instruction (probably an omission on my part). It should be possible to adjust the wheels inwards very slightly by some careful pressure, should it be necessary, but the model is manufactured for use on 16.5mm gauge track and pointwork on which it has been tested and performs satisfactorily. I have certainly never encountered the need to dismantle valve gear in order to adjust back-to-back and it is not a course of action I would recommend. (CJL)

[Captain Kernow]

32 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

It should be possible to adjust the wheels inwards very slightly by some careful pressure

I would be happier doing that on a loco without valve gear, of course. I may be able to shape up some kind of 'tool', which could press on the wheels, without affecting the valve gear and then use finger pressure, with a 14.5mm back-to-back gauge located between the wheels themselves.

 

 

34 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

the model is manufactured for use on 16.5mm gauge track and pointwork on which it has been tested and performs satisfactorily

I completely appreciate that and do not have any problems with my own model on pointwork that is to 16.5mm gauge, as opposed to OO-SF.

 

So far I have had problems with the J70, the Hattons/DJM 14XX and also Heljan bogie diesels on OO-SF pointwork. All other makes don't give any problems.

 

Unfortunately, the J70 is potentially the harder to fix, by virtue of it's fine and delicate valve gear.

 

36 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

I have certainly never encountered the need to dismantle valve gear in order to adjust back-to-back and it is not a course of action I would recommend. (CJL)

I only mention the idea of dismantling the valve gear as a way of getting clear access to the wheels, in order to press them on their axles back to 14.5mm back-to-back. If this can be achieved without dismantling the valve gear, I will be very happy indeed!

 

Dismantling RTR valve gear is also something I wouldn't recommend. The last time I did so (on a Bachmann loco), I found that building a complete new chassis (Comet) for the locomotive was easier than trying to re-assemble their valve gear and getting it to run smoothly.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

On the Tetbury branch there is one known (and photographed) instance of 1664 working the last end of term train for Westonbirt Girls School just a few days before the branch closed completely. The train was three coaches - a Collett full brake (for copious amounts of luggage, no doubt) and two LMS Stanier coaches. I presume it was taken over by something larger, onward from Kemble. '16xx's may have worked passenger trains on the branch prior to the arrival of railbuses in February 1959 but photographs generally show '58XX' 0-4-2Ts or '57XX' panniers when steam was in regular use. Trains often ran as mixed and involved shunting en route, at Culkerton. (CJL)

There is a picture of 1648 hauling a single auto trailer leaving Tetbury in the Wild Swan book which covers the branch.

[dibber25]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

There is a picture of 1648 hauling a single auto trailer leaving Tetbury in the Wild Swan book which covers the branch.

 

I'd missed that, although I had got 1648 on my list of locos that I hoped we could cover. Not the first interesting Tetbury photo that I've missed until recently. Completely off topic, but Colour-Rail 212474 is a shot of W55032 at Tetbury, the only non-railbus unit I've ever seen pictured on the branch. I know single-unit railcars were used in the hard winter of 1963 when the railbuses froze up and I wonder if this (undated) shot is at the tail end of that episode. I guess Troublehouse and Church's Hill could not be served, as the railcars had no suitable steps. (CJL)

[NXEA!]

Thanks for the responses all, much appreciated. 

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

On the Tetbury branch there is one known (and photographed) instance of 1664 working the last end of term train for Westonbirt Girls School just a few days before the branch closed completely. 

 

Wow! Those schoolgirls must have been like St Trinian's to close a branch line. 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

Incidentally when it comes to modelling ideas associated with these engines the St Blazey engines were sent there principally to work the Goonbarrow branch.  So 16XX in clay country on a. minimalist branchline (basically a long siding in non-WR speak) is a possibility (and definitely a 'certainty' for one person who appears to be looking at this thread looking at this thread, sorry St E  )

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally when it comes to modelling ideas associated with these engines the St Blazey engines were sent there principally to work the Goonbarrow branch.  So 16XX in clay country on a. minimalist branchline (basically a long siding in non-WR speak) is a possibility (and definitely a 'certainty' for one person who appears to be looking at this thread looking at this thread, sorry St E  )

That's right. A 16xx, a 2021 and a 74xx will work turn and turn about on my version.

[tomparryharry]

On 18/07/2019 at 12:04, St Enodoc said:

That's right. A 16xx, a 2021 and a 74xx will work turn and turn about on my version.

 

I'll settle for the 16xx, and the 2021. 

[Steamport Southport]

That's a bit of a coincidence. I've just gone through my spare name and number plates looking for a 16XX which I thought I had and found two 2021s that I can't remember buying. Picked up cheap at exhibitions for something like 50p each. Yes, my naming and numbering does get a bit random.

 

I'm pretty sure I had a 16XX. But now I have 2081 and 2122. No engines, just the plates. 

 

I mainly wanted to research the 16XX I thought I had the plates for so that I could order the one that fits best.

 

 

 

Jason

 

[Rhydgaled]

On 15/07/2019 at 21:22, Steamport Southport said:

 

They only carried two liveries in BR service.

 

BR Black early crest

BR Black late crest

 

Unless the preserved example was lined at one point then I'm afraid not.

 

 

Jason

 

Ah ok, thanks for confirming.

 

On 15/07/2019 at 21:31, dibber25 said:

Lined black appeared on one or two pannier tanks (notably 57XX and 94XX) which were considered to be 'mixed traffic' (mainly because they worked ECS into Paddington) but it was soon dropped. 64XX legitimately carried lined green as they were considered 'passenger' locos. '16XX' were primarily freight locos, so carried unlined black - even those which went to Scotland specifically to work passenger trains! (CJL)

 

 

I suppose photographs of 16xx locos on passenger/mixed trains don't necessarily mean they were booked for such work, but there certainly are pictures of 16xx with passenger stock in tow on the Cardigan branch.

 

On 16/07/2019 at 01:34, Steamport Southport said:

List of all the known lined black pannier tanks here.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

 

 

 

Jason

 

Thanks; interestingly it doesn't list any 45xx as having carried lined black either, even though Bachmann have done one of those in lined black.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Rhydgaled

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Rhydgaled said:

Thanks; interestingly it doesn't list any 45xx as having carried lined black either, even though Bachmann have done one of those in lined black.

 

It does list one - 5527. I'm not saying 4557 (which is what Bachmann do) didn't carry lined black, merely that I've never seen it confirmed in a prototype pic.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

On 17/07/2019 at 13:47, dibber25 said:

On the Tetbury branch there is one known (and photographed) instance of 1664 working the last end of term train for Westonbirt Girls School just a few days before the branch closed completely. The train was three coaches - a Collett full brake (for copious amounts of luggage, no doubt) and two LMS Stanier coaches. I presume it was taken over by something larger, onward from Kemble. '16xx's may have worked passenger trains on the branch prior to the arrival of railbuses in February 1959 but photographs generally show '58XX' 0-4-2Ts or '57XX' panniers when steam was in regular use. Trains often ran as mixed and involved shunting en route, at Culkerton. (CJL)

That must have been a bit St Trinian's!

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

On 25/07/2019 at 14:23, Miss Prism said:

 

It does list one - 5527. I'm not saying 4557 (which is what Bachmann do) didn't carry lined black, merely that I've never seen it confirmed in a prototype pic.

 

 

 

Being a thoroughly revolting pedant (and equally revolting peasant), it is incumbent on me to point out that 5527 was 4575, not a 45xx...  I believe several auto fitted 4575s had lined livery, but not 5555, the Tondu allocation that I have on Cwmdimbath.

 

I also have a Bachmann 4557 on Cwmdimbath, in lined black with etched plates.  4557 was allocated to Tondu in the early 50s and I am working on the assumption that Baccy have their livery details correct, but the loco was transferred to Whitland and may have carried the lined livery there but not at Tondu.  Photo exists of it in lined livery at Whitland.  But I want a lined black loco on Cwmdimbath, so the Rule 1 card has been played, and will remain in play until I can have it confirmed that 4557 did not carry lined black livery at Tondu.  One of the reasons for modelling my 1948-58 period is livery variations and I try to get as many in as possible.

 

I am not sure what purpose 4557 served at Tondu, unless it was as a spare for working the Porthcawl branch, which was normally worked by 44xx locos.  These had to be turned every week to even wear on the tyres owing to the Porthcawl branches tight curves; other classes were speed restricted to 5mph on parts of it!  Her usual job at Cwmdimbath is the Tremains ROF workman's, which actually ran from Abergwynfi, but she puts in an occasional appearance deputising for a failed auto loco (Abergwynfi photos show non-auto locos hauling auto trailers on what must have been a fairly regular basis) or the pickup.  The loco remained at Tondu for some time after the 44xx were scrapped, so there must have been some work for it!

 

I'd love a 16xx, but Tondu never had one.  It did have some exotica not available RTR, though; as well as the 44xx there was 3100, a Collett large prairie with a no.4 boiler and 5'3" wheels for the daily Porthcawl-Cardiff commuter train, and this is not likely to ever appear RTR IMHO.  So, if I ever run out of other modelling to do, I might one day have a go at kitbashing/cut and shutting/scratchbuilding/bodging this beast, the 'ultimate' large prairie.  

[Pinehill]

Probably missed it somewhere but what is the approximate release date for these 16XX's?

[dibber25]

36 minutes ago, Pinehill said:

Probably missed it somewhere but what is the approximate release date for these 16XX's?

We don't have one at present. The model is still at CAD stage although we recently received a 3D print and once this is approved the model will move to tooling.  (CJL)

[Captain Kernow]

On 03/07/2019 at 22:32, dibber25 said:

whilst minimising the need for people to renumber them. (CJL)

When it comes to renumbering these locos, Chris, may I make a request that the factory-applied number is either by means of a transfer (or printing), which can have a replacement etched brass plate glued straight on top or alternatively an easy-to-remove etched plate.

 

I have recently had to re-number two RTR GWR locos. One was the Hattons/DJM 14XX, with the awful, recessed number plate, which I removed and then inserted a piece of 10 thou plasticard to bring the cab side back up to the correct level, prior to gluing a new plate on top.

 

The other was the Oxford Rail Dean Goods, which required me to carefully cut the factory moulded-on number plate away with a curved scalpel blade, prior to gluing a replacement etched brass plate in place.

 

Something along the lines of how Bachmann do it with their 57XX pannier would suit very well, please!

 

Perhaps you and the team already have something like this in mind?

 

Many thanks.

 

[dibber25]

25 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

When it comes to renumbering these locos, Chris, may I make a request that the factory-applied number is either by means of a transfer (or printing), which can have a replacement etched brass plate glued straight on top or alternatively an easy-to-remove etched plate.

 

I have recently had to re-number two RTR GWR locos. One was the Hattons/DJM 14XX, with the awful, recessed number plate, which I removed and then inserted a piece of 10 thou plasticard to bring the cab side back up to the correct level, prior to gluing a new plate on top.

 

The other was the Oxford Rail Dean Goods, which required me to carefully cut the factory moulded-on number plate away with a curved scalpel blade, prior to gluing a replacement etched brass plate in place.

 

Something along the lines of how Bachmann do it with their 57XX pannier would suit very well, please!

 

Perhaps you and the team already have something like this in mind?

 

Many thanks.

 

The 3D print that we now have in the office has a plain, flat cabside, so the numberplate will presumably be printed on. I know we are not doing etched plates with this model. I found with my Hattons/DJM 14XX, that the easiest way was just to glue the new plate on top of the old one. (CJL)

Edited August 12, 2019 by dibber25

[Captain Kernow]

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

The 3D print that we now have in the office has a plain, flat cabside, so the numberplate will presumably be printed on. I know we are not doing etched plates with this model.

Thanks Chris, that's very helpful.

 

5 hours ago, dibber25 said:

I found with my Hattons/DJM 14XX, that the easiest way was just to glue the new plate on top of the old one. (CJL)

Thanks, I know a lot of folk seem to have done that, but when I looked at doing it with my 247 plates, there seemed to be a very small gap around the base of the plate, so I removed the old plate and filled in the gap, so that the new plate could sit completely flat.

 

[Strathwood]

One for Chris to answer perhaps, strange there is not a planned version of 1608 to be released in early crest/weathered condition considering she was an occasional performer along the Ashburton branch and we all know how popular that is for modellers of branch lines, perhaps you feel that they are only GWR era modellers?

 

How about one, even though I would still be obliged to fit new cabside and smokebox plates by the sounds of things if they are to be reproduced in the Bachmann style?

 

Kevin

[dibber25]

3 hours ago, Strathwood said:

One for Chris to answer perhaps, strange there is not a planned version of 1608 to be released in early crest/weathered condition considering she was an occasional performer along the Ashburton branch and we all know how popular that is for modellers of branch lines, perhaps you feel that they are only GWR era modellers?

 

How about one, even though I would still be obliged to fit new cabside and smokebox plates by the sounds of things if they are to be reproduced in the Bachmann style?

 

Kevin

No special reason as far as I'm aware. We can't do them all, so some decisions had to be made. (CJL)

[MPR]

On 16/07/2019 at 22:41, GWJ said:

According to the Great Western Journal No.30 Spring 1999 and Martin Connop-Price in The Whitland & Cardigan Railway (Oakwood Press), 16xx's were used on passenger services on the Cardigan branch - 1637, 1648 and 1666 were regulars with 1613 and 1628 also making appearances.  Interestingly, a 16xx was usually sub-shedded at Cardigan for working the first train out.  The reason that a 16xx was preferred for this service was that it was the only engine light enough to cross over the mini-turntable to be able to access the shed at Cardigan.  Add in the fact that many of the passenger services ran as mixed trains and that Cardigan station occupied a very attractive riverside location, and the modelling possibilities are endless!  

There is a colour photo of 1613 at Kilgerran in Western Branches, Western Byways by Kevin McCormack.