Little Loco Company - Class 22

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I can’t believe everyone is so blasé and ‘understanding’ about this?!!! I have paid £850 and it totally unacceptable that he now decides to sell the company, leaving everyone high and dry!  This seems nothing short of a scam. I shall be talking to my lawyer in the morning about this. Disgraceful....

 

Part of the problem is that there is a lack of information, in particular we don't yet know what will happen to those who have paid money for undelivered models.  The outcome I suspect will depend on what interest is shown in the attempted sale of the company / assets.

 

5 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

 I’m also alarmed that we have all paid two payments when only development work has occurred and according to his ‘statement’ the class 22 is only ‘ready for tooling’ This alone makes me question just how legitimate the company was in the first place. 

 

LLC delivered one model (Class 15, can be seen in the thread on this forum) and demonstrated working samples of the Ruston, which apparently is ready for production.  3D prints and some CAD have been shown for the Class 22.

 

Thus I think it is fair to say the company was legitimate.

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, Dava said:

See DJM thread, again some ambiguity about it, dont shoot messenger.

 

Possible a message you read has been deleted, but there is no ambiguity.  Dave has not announced any cancellation of the APT-P (the APT-E was done by Rapido) so anything in the DJM thread is speculation or rumour.

[delticfan]

I think it’s fair to compare crowdfunding with gambling, you could loose your money. On that basis I would never do it and I feel for those who have lost out. 

[Hal Nail]

9 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I can’t believe everyone is so blasé and ‘understanding’ about this?!!!

 

 I shall be talking to my lawyer in the morning about this.

 

The best outcome would be a successful sale and it all carries on.

 

The worst outcome would be if cash deposits, if not already converted into designs or tools which have value, are absorbed in legal fees rather than being returned.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Hal Nail

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Part of the problem is that there is a lack of information, in particular we don't yet know what will happen to those who have paid money for undelivered models.  The outcome I suspect will depend on what interest is shown in the attempted sale of the company / assets.

 

 

LLC delivered one model (Class 15, can be seen in the thread on this forum) and demonstrated working samples of the Ruston, which apparently is ready for production.  3D prints and some CAD have been shown for the Class 22.

 

Thus I think it is fair to say the company was legitimate.

I agree with CME; Steve/LLC had delivered a very good model in the form of the Class 15, and was well on the way with the Ruston. A game-changing Class 22 was not beyond the realms of possibility...

 

.... except now it might be.

I for one hope it gets picked up by someone. Dapol have been mentioned & having already done excellent 2mm & 4mm versions could well take up the challenge - but do they need Steve's CAD work, & would they go down his 'prototype drive' route? Some parts of the proposed model could be simplified - personally I thought 103 individual parts for each bogie was a bit excessive!! If Dapol made the 22 from that CAD work, would we who have paid as crowd-funders get a substantial discount on the model??

Or - if Dapol did buy the info from Steve, what happens to the money they pay to him??

 

I do hope the model goes ahead, & we see something for our money. But as for crowd-funding - for me, NEVER again.

[jjb1970]

 

If the company is sold as a going concern then the buyer will be taking on both liabilities and assets. The risk will be if no buyer is willing to buy the business as a going concern and the proprietor feels unable to continue. I think it is premature to assume crowdfunders have lost everything, but certainly it will be a worrying time for those who have paid in. 

[Giles]

I funded in the knowledge there was a small risk, but had faith in LLC, and wanted to encourage and enable them.

 

Although I shall be very sorry indeed to lose more or less my annual budget, I shan't be bitter against Steve, and very much wish him well.

I'm looking at it as having bought a nice loco, brought it home and dropped it......

 

I suspect that projects this large and sophisticated can get out of hand very quickly, especially when you're carrying the burden yourself. Many many years ago I had a nervous breakdown (For extremely good reasons) and for some months I was completely incapable of functioning at all, so a lack of communication does not come as a surprise when things are going wrong.

I hasten to add that I haven't a clue what is the issue with Steve and LLc, I am merely recounting my own experience. 

[adb968008]

Quote

am open to offers for the business as a whole or just the rights and tooling for the Ruston, along with the Class 22 development work.

 

I guess it all depends which way it goes...

if the business is sold the game is still on.

 

if the rights, designs and tooling are sold it’s an asset sale, and presumably the obligations are not taken on.

 

Crowdfunders could move different ways, at an extreme way depending on their t&cs they might have grounds to intervene an asset sale, but it’s remote. However equally they could double up and buy the business...right now it’s another crowd funded group  bobbing around on a life raft looking anxiously.

 

However the sale here is suggested as personal reasons rather than insolvency, whoever takes over needs to have the skill set to deliver.. that is one gap...

 

unless the buyer knows how to deliver they would need to hire in talent to do the job and increase costs, or seek to outsource it (introduces delay). Conversely if they do have the talent they may be already established and so only want the toolings etc.

Edited May 9, 2019 by adb968008

[Ravenser]

7 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Possible a message you read has been deleted, but there is no ambiguity.  Dave has not announced any cancellation of the APT-P (the APT-E was done by Rapido) so anything in the DJM thread is speculation or rumour.

 

That is also my understanding - the APT-E was Rapido, DJM have stated their intention to register their CAD for the APT-P with the Intellectual Property Office. I have seen no suggestion in the DJM thread that this project has been cancelled by DJM . Anyway it's not really DJM's style to pull the plug on things - "pending until dormant" seems more the approach.

 

While concern about the whether the DJM project would reach fruition may have been expressed , DJM's public stance is that the project is still very much on - like all their other pending projects

 

[ As a complete outsider, not working in the scale - if the business is sold as a going concern , liability for the crowd-funding transfers with the tooling and there is no obvious reason why the funders would not get their model. They should in theory be no worse off. If only the tooling is sold, then liability for the crowd-funding remains with Steve ... , but he would have funds from the sale of the LLC assets with which to refund the crowd-funders. Either way, it seems to me entirely premature for crowd-funders of LLC to assume they have lost all their money]

Edited May 9, 2019 by Ravenser

[south_tyne]

2 hours ago, Giles said:

I funded in the knowledge there was a small risk, but had faith in LLC, and wanted to encourage and enable them.

 

Although I shall be very sorry indeed to lose more or less my annual budget, I shan't be bitter against Steve, and very much wish him well.

I'm looking at it as having bought a nice loco, brought it home and dropped it......

 

I suspect that projects this large and sophisticated can get out of hand very quickly, especially when you're carrying the burden yourself. Many many years ago I had a nervous breakdown (For extremely good reasons) and for some months I was completely incapable of functioning at all, so a lack of communication does not come as a surprise when things are going wrong.

I hasten to add that I haven't a clue what is the issue with Steve and LLc, I am merely recounting my own experience. 

 

Giles, 

 

I think you have set out everything I am feeling and thinking but in a far more eloquent manner than I ever could. 

 

Steve has already delivered a fantastic model in the Class 15. He seems to be 90% of the way down the line with the Ruston. The Class 22 has obviously been progressing. Little Loco Company is definitely a 'legitimate' company with a proven track record of delivering quality products. 

 

Although we have no idea what the circumstances are for Steve's decision, and we have no right or need to know at all, it is a very personal thing, I also empathise with you experience. I too have suffered from severe mental illness and it can be completely debilitating and things can exacerbate and get out of control very easily. 

 

With any luck, someone will pick up the Ruston and Class 22 projects in due course and Steve will come out the other side a stronger person for the experience. I for one couldn't contemplate the stress, complexity and pressure of trying to produce a model like this - the Class 15 will remain as a testament to his achievement. 

 

[Captain Cuttle]

13 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I can’t believe everyone is so blasé and ‘understanding’ about this?!!! I have paid £850 and it totally unacceptable that he now decides to sell the company, leaving everyone high and dry!  This seems nothing short of a scam. I shall be talking to my lawyer in the morning about this. Disgraceful....

I dont think people are  but pretty gobsmacked in mine and a friends opinion with the total lack of communication to us as individual crowdfunders. Maybe some can afford it, for me  its a serious amount of money!

[Phil Parker]

13 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I can’t believe everyone is so blasé and ‘understanding’ about this?!!! I have paid £850 and it totally unacceptable that he now decides to sell the company, leaving everyone high and dry!  This seems nothing short of a scam. I shall be talking to my lawyer in the morning about this. Disgraceful....

 

I suspect most people believe the statement. This isn't something they would have chosen to do and so the reasons behind it must be very serious. I've spoken to Steve at shows, seen physical development pieces and am not inclined to suggest this is a scam. 

 

This is the problem with very small companies. While they can be more "agile" than the bigger concerns (something people seem to like) they can be very vulnerable to the loss of a single person and that is what appears to have happened here. 

[mervyn]

I have had contact with Steve when my class 15 imploded so I don,t think that this a "scam" he must be in pretty dire straits to have to contemplate selling the company which he founded and has put so much effort into.  We will just have to wait and see what develops. I to cant stand to lose this amount of money either, and its disappointing  as well for the class 22 society, who were going to benefit from the model, so hopefully there will be news either way soon.

[Pandora]

Come on Hornby, buy the tooling for the Ruston,  it is time for a new venture.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

It's a sad day for the hobby as a whole.

 

The risk was laid out in the T&Cs albeit in a jocular way (perhaps inappropriately - depending on ones POV) in places. Also IIRC the benefit was a £100-150 discount vs several hundred GBP outlay before seeing a delivered model.

 

Fingers crossed another company can make it all work. It would be lovely to see Hornby do 7mm, but they're currently VERY highly geared.

 

Also the funding for the Cl22, has it all been spent yet as theres no tooling?

 

ATB

 

CME

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

If the company is sold as a going concern then the buyer will be taking on both liabilities and assets. The risk will be if no buyer is willing to buy the business as a going concern and the proprietor feels unable to continue. I think it is premature to assume crowdfunders have lost everything, but certainly it will be a worrying time for those who have paid in. 

 

Is it a company (limited)? Or just a business?

 

Makes a big difference to the legal situation.

[raymw]

©2018 Little Loco Company Ltd. All Rights Reserved. | VAT Number: GB 225 6558 95. | Company Registration Number: 09818565. | Registered Company Office: The Old Casino, 28 Fourth Avenue, Hove, East Sussex, England, BN3 2PJ. | Correspondence Address: Little Loco Company Ltd Operations, 43 Shakespeare Street, Hove BN3 5AG.

[The Nth Degree]

Hello all. Could I quickly inject some facts to quench the speculation.

For personal reasons that I would rather not go into, I am unable to continue to run the company, at least on my own, and therefore I’m offering it for sale. LLC is not in administration.

Of course, I will try to secure a positive outcome for all of my customers, whether they have committed financially or not, and it is with you that my priorities lay.

Regarding communication briefly, outside of my family and one other person I have not communicated with anyone, so I have not been selective or biased or tried to conceal anything. I have simply been unable to.

Nobody has lost anything yet, but I concede there has been a significant delay and I apologise sincerely for it.

Updates will appear here in due course.

Steve

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, CME and Bottlewasher said:

 

Also the funding for the Cl22, has it all been spent yet as theres no tooling?

 

 

 

 

I don't know what has been spent. But the CAD work for the 22 has been done, we are told, and that's the major element in tooling these days.

[MissWeeble]

I am the design engineer for Little Loco Company , and I can say yes the cad work has been done and is ready for tooling, It took a long time to develop all of the new systems and a number of new methods for production of this model. 

[Pandora]

Who could take forward the LLC projects?

my  randomised shortlist  of names:

 

Hattons.

Rail of Sheffield

Dapol.

Heljan

Tower Models.

We  saw the James May "Trouble at Hornby" programme and I note those retailers entering into manufacture

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Pandora

[RedgateModels]

1 minute ago, Pandora said:

Who could take forward the LLC projects?

my shortlist is:

 

Hattons.

Rail of Sheffield

Dapol.

Heljan

Tower Models.

 

Outside bet? Digitrains as Paul Chetter did the sound files for the 15

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

Who could take forward the LLC projects?

my  randomised shortlist  of names:

 

Hattons.

Rail of Sheffield

Dapol.

Heljan

Tower Models.

We  saw the James May "Trouble at Hornby" programme and I note those retailers entering into manufacture

 

 

That is some of the thinking that went through my mind, I then started considering the likes of Hornby as well. There has long been rumour that they would get back into 0 gauge, perhaps if they were able to hit the ground running it may be the impetuous that they need.

 

Beyond that, could somebody like Accurascale be interested? I expect that the initial outlay would be too great for them, but you never know.

 

Roy

Edited May 9, 2019 by Roy Langridge

[Hal Nail]

Speculating on purchasers, at least publically, is utterly pointless and possibly unhelpful. It’s certainly insensitive given the unfortunate situation.

 

How about everyone lets them try and resolve it favourably?

[south_tyne]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

Who could take forward the LLC projects?

my  randomised shortlist  of names:

 

Hattons.

Rail of Sheffield

Dapol.

Heljan

Tower Models.

We  saw the James May "Trouble at Hornby" programme and I note those retailers entering into manufacture

 

 

I know there will be no ulterior motive meant by your post at all but I don't really think there is much benefit in speculating like this at the current time. Steve has set out the position and he has said that when there is an update, or any progress, he will post here. He needs the support of the wider modelling community at this difficult time; after all it his personal life and livelihood that are the reasoning for his decision. In my dealings with Steve he has been nothing more than polite, courteous and helpful. Sadly life seems to have become very difficult for him lately and he has made the brave choice to step back from his business. That won't have been taken lightly given the time, money and sheer hard work he has invested in LLCo over recent years. We need to be sensitive to that.

 

I think we should just wait to be updated in due course. Ultimately, it is going to take some time to agree a deal if another company or individual is to take the project(s) on. 

 

Edit: sorry, obviously crossed-posted with the reply above from Hal Nail but I echo the thoughts expressed. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by south_tyne
Clarification