Little Loco Company - Class 22

[Kris]

2 hours ago, The Nth Degree said:

Hello all. Could I quickly inject some facts to quench the speculation.

For personal reasons that I would rather not go into, I am unable to continue to run the company, at least on my own, and therefore I’m offering it for sale. LLC is not in administration.

Of course, I will try to secure a positive outcome for all of my customers, whether they have committed financially or not, and it is with you that my priorities lay.

Regarding communication briefly, outside of my family and one other person I have not communicated with anyone, so I have not been selective or biased or tried to conceal anything. I have simply been unable to.

Nobody has lost anything yet, but I concede there has been a significant delay and I apologise sincerely for it.

Updates will appear here in due course.

Steve

 

Thank you for clarifying things Steve it is appreciated. 

[chris coates]

We all know Steve has put a massive amount of work into the class 22 project (and the others). Sadly it appears health problems have forced him to step back and, understandably, he has decided he needs to relinquish the responsibility he now feels LLC is putting on him. Given the problems with factories, etc that he has already told us about, I admired his determination to battle through regardless. It seems Steve has the knowledge and contacts to make it happen so I wonder if he could get someone to take most of the weight off him (physically and financially) he would feel relieved enough to continue to be involved with the project and allow it to come to fruition. Perhaps a partnership or something similar would work? It would seem such a shame that, having put so much effort into both the Ruston and the Class 22, he is unable to see it through. Both projects are well advanced and it sounds like all the hardest work has been done. I sincerely hope he can still be involved and see his locomotives finished. Good luck Steve.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

5 hours ago, The Nth Degree said:

Hello all. Could I quickly inject some facts to quench the speculation.

For personal reasons that I would rather not go into, I am unable to continue to run the company, at least on my own, and therefore I’m offering it for sale. LLC is not in administration.

Of course, I will try to secure a positive outcome for all of my customers, whether they have committed financially or not, and it is with you that my priorities lay.

Regarding communication briefly, outside of my family and one other person I have not communicated with anyone, so I have not been selective or biased or tried to conceal anything. I have simply been unable to.

Nobody has lost anything yet, but I concede there has been a significant delay and I apologise sincerely for it.

Updates will appear here in due course.

Steve

Hi Steve,

 

Thank you for communicating that here, I, for one, appreciate it, at this time this Thread is my main port of call for the Cl22, other than email updates. Thanks for the clarification.

 

I empathise re health issues and the like, and I hope that you can overcome your challenges and that there is a viable solution for all concerned. Either in terms of partnerships or an outright sale.

 

I know that these things can take time to organise and negotiate.

 

The Class 22 is an ambitious but inspiring project in of itself. Rather than the possibility of no release at all, could the product be parred down for alacrity and cost effectiveness - as you hinted at. Thus perhaps be made a more attractive, quicker to market, proposition? I put that question out there, rather than specifically to you Steve.

 

I hope, for everyone's sake, that this current situation can be turned around and I hope for a mutually beneficial outcome for all.

 

Kind regards

 

CME

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by CME and Bottlewasher

[nickb4141]

Does anyone who, (like me,) has committed money to this project,have a copy of the terms and conditions? I have had a search through all of my emails and can’t find any record of anything? I’ve also looked on the website and there is no mention of anything. Any help in finding these (assuming they actually exist,) would be greatly appreciated.

[Captain Kernow]

14 minutes ago, nickb4141 said:

Does anyone who, (like me,) has committed money to this project,have a copy of the terms and conditions? I have had a search through all of my emails and can’t find any record of anything? I’ve also looked on the website and there is no mention of anything. Any help in finding these (assuming they actually exist,) would be greatly appreciated.

All of us who are part of the crowdfunding scheme will have received the same information, whatever it is.

 

I for one am not going to go scurrying off, looking into the finer detail of what I did or didn't think I was getting myself in to. I'm more than happy to wait and see what happens and wish Steve and his family and colleagues all the very best.

 

It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings.

 

[dpgibbons]

Somebody more lawyerly than I might care to step in here, but I believe the legal situation is as follows. T&Cs don't override your UK consumer rights, which are likely to apply even for a crowdfunded purchase. Your contract is with LLC and they can't transfer to somebody else their obligation to supply or refund unless you agree. If what they say or do confirms their intention not to supply - which arguably has already happened, and certainly would if the designs are sold - then customers could pursue the usual remedies of a refund followed by a small claims court action, or more likely a bank chargeback or a credit card claim. Hopefully a third party will step up with a satisfactory offer but you are not obliged to wait for one, nor to take what's offered.

Edited May 9, 2019 by dpgibbons

[JSpencer]

48 minutes ago, dpgibbons said:

Somebody more lawyerly than I might care to step in here, but I believe the legal situation is as follows. T&Cs don't override your UK consumer rights, which are likely to apply even for a crowdfunded purchase. Your contract is with LLC and they can't transfer to somebody else their obligation to supply or refund unless you agree. If what they say or do confirms their intention not to supply - which arguably has already happened, and certainly would if the designs are sold - then customers could pursue the usual remedies of a refund followed by a small claims court action, or more likely a bank chargeback or a credit card claim. Hopefully a third party will step up with a satisfactory offer but you are not obliged to wait for one, nor to take what's offered.

 

I think the openness with which the situation has been explained, he is doing the best he can for these projects and his customers. Best bet is to let him get on with that or even put the word out to help find someone to lift the burden to get the projects delivered, probably with Steve's guidance. 

The stress of potential legal action, is certainly not merited, likely to accelerate his health issues and have fair number here loose crowd funding money through legal fees defending them.

The chap is clearly serious to want to see it through. He has openly asked for help, so some solidarity to find a partner and get his legacy delivered i feel is the best thing for all around.

[Clarky1000]

Given that LLC clearly owe lots of people a considerable sum of money (including me for £1106.99 - 2 Class 22s plus postage), perhaps Steve should seriously consider giving the business to a suitable manufacturer, on the understanding that they at least would honour his commitments, rather than trying to sell the business and make money on the deal!

 

I understand that he is not personally able to continue with the business himself, but he should show some honour in this!

 

 

[melmoth]

59 minutes ago, Clarky1000 said:

Given that LLC clearly owe lots of people a considerable sum of money (including me for £1106.99 - 2 Class 22s plus postage), perhaps Steve should seriously consider giving the business to a suitable manufacturer, on the understanding that they at least would honour his commitments, rather than trying to sell the business and make money on the deal!

 

I understand that he is not personally able to continue with the business himself, but he should show some honour in this!

 

 

 

What exactly, in any of the communications from LLC regarding Steve's situation, leads you to believe that he intends to behave in a dishonourable manner?

[Clarky1000]

Nothing at all!

 

Its a suggestion, not an accusation!

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 09/05/2019 at 20:45, dpgibbons said:

Somebody more lawyerly than I might care to step in here, but I believe the legal situation is as follows. T&Cs don't override your UK consumer rights, which are likely to apply even for a crowdfunded purchase. Your contract is with LLC and they can't transfer to somebody else their obligation to supply or refund unless you agree. If what they say or do confirms their intention not to supply - which arguably has already happened, and certainly would if the designs are sold - then customers could pursue the usual remedies of a refund followed by a small claims court action, or more likely a bank chargeback or a credit card claim. Hopefully a third party will step up with a satisfactory offer but you are not obliged to wait for one, nor to take what's offered.

 

That is why I asked the (rhetorical) question about company status.

 

LLC is a Limited Company. If Steve sells the company to someone else, nothing changes with regard to the company's obligations to its customers. The company is a legal "person". The new company owner inherits that situation.

[Clarky1000]

Not quite Joseph

 

With a limited Company:

 

If shares in the company are purchased, all the company’s assets, liabilities and obligations are acquired (even those that a prospective buyer may not be aware of). 

 

However, when only the assets are purchased, then only the assets (and liabilities) which the buyer agrees to purchase – and which are identified in the sale agreement – are acquired

 

Anyway

 

Let's see what happens.

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, Clarky1000 said:

Nothing at all!

 

Its a suggestion, not an accusation!

OK, but I would respectfully suggest that there has been no evidence whatsoever hitherto, to lead anyone to believe that Steve is acting from anything other than the most honourable of motives.

 

To even 'suggest' that his behaviour could be dishonourable, could be viewed by some as offensive.

 

[Clarky1000]

You are of course absolutely correct!

 

And since Steve says in his mail on this site that ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,LLC is not in administration" and also on the LLC website it clearly states that; ".................there is no commitment to purchase and you may cancel or change your reservation at any time prior to despatch," we can all be sure that LLC will be willing to fully refund anyone that doesn't want to await the outcome of this and would just like their money back.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Clarky1000
Typo

[CME and Bottlewasher]

AFAICT, Steve, has always always acted in a pleasent and honourable manner. I shall qualify that with the proviso that there is a matrix of of four boxes, to truly knowing someone, but Steve is, thus far, well liked and respected by many whom I respect. Thus I write (speak) as I find.

 

In terms of the current situation for everyone? As funds - I'm not fully aware of the status of staged payments for the Cl22 and if anything other than CAD has been paid for and Steve has yet to clarify with detailed written statements regarding such - for the Class 22, surely there must be in an account somewhere (ready for staged payments for the factory/tooling et al), therefore the matter is binary, relative to T&Cs, agreements and over arching statutory rights?

 

Ergo its a matter of trust, contractual obligation and each individuals' comfort zone as to how long the current situation is to be endured?

 

Has anyone had emails from LLC, with further clarification (I haven't to date)?

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by CME and Bottlewasher
typos/grammar

[F-UnitMad]

I suppose we're in for another long run of silence now, until we hear if anything/nothing is going to happen...

[Earl of Pembroke]

Has anyone had a reply from LLC about the Class 22 money situation? The latest accounts are not reassuring and there was quite a bit of negative chatter at Railex about LLC.  LLC's registered office is at "The Old Casino" in Hove; I hope that is not a portent. 

 

 

[thedman]

I am also one of the funders and had a look into doing a paypal ‘chargeback’, but as the transactions are more than 180 days old, you are stuffed.

[chris coates]

I attended the Doncaster O Show yesterday and found the Digitrains stand with loads of LLC Class 15 models for sale. It appears they have purchased all the remaining stock, presumably from LLC. What worries me is that things appear to be happening but no-one is telling the funder's anything. Has anyone heard from Steve at all? There's a lot of people's money at stake here and I think it's high time we had an update from Steve even if it's only a basic response telling us the current situation. I did consider asking for my monies to be repaid in class 15 locos rather than being kept in the dark for the foreseeable future but that's not an option now is it? Come on Steve you need to start being more communicative and telling us what's going on regularly. The quieter you are the worse this all looks. I'm praying "no news" is good news but I'm not really convinced this is the case here but please prove me wrong.

[Earl of Pembroke]

I too saw those Class 15s on the Digitrains stand. Mr Leathers needs to break his radio silence. I had rather a lot of  less than charitable talk and speculation about LLC at Doncaster yesterday. The situation is aggravated by the rather parlous state of LLC's published accounts for the year ending 31st October 2018, which seem to be light on cash. 

[chris coates]

It would be very interesting to know how many people subscribed to the class 22 project. If we take a moderate guess at 150 then there should be about £600,000 in the pot. Admittedly some will be spent on the set up but there must be a fair wedge in the bank ready to pay the manufacturers to produce the parts. Then the cost of assembly has to be accounted for and I assume there was an expected profit at the end of all this. Another factor is the Ruston diesel shunter as we know LLC money has been spent on this. It would be good to know what has happened to all funders money as there should still be a considerable amount in the bank but you suggest the accounts are not showing this.....worrying!!!

[Phil Parker]

29 minutes ago, chris coates said:

It would be very interesting to know how many people subscribed to the class 22 project. If we take a moderate guess at 150 then there should be about £600,000 in the pot.

 

It would be better if people didn't stick a finger in the air and then start making calculations based on a guess. At the moment, those who do know something are choosing to keep quiet. While nature abhors a vacuum, can we avoid filing it with guestimates and stick to facts. In situations like this, there can be moves behind the scenes, but those making them won't give a running commentary on a public forum.

 

If anyone involved wishes to post a message but indirectly, please PM me and I'd be happy to do this as there are plenty of people who have money in this and rightly would like some answers.

[Cliff Williams]

Chris I think the maths is not quite right there, 150 units at the crowdfunder price is not £600,000 - one too many zeros there in your guesstimate.

Still a big figure there though.

I didn’t go for a crowdfunded one as he seemed to have difficulties with his Chinese suppliers, then his UK suppliers, so he couldn’t have had a supply chain in place for the class 22 when he started the crowdfunding.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Cliff Williams

[MarshLane]

4 hours ago, chris coates said:

Come on Steve you need to start being more communicative and telling us what's going on regularly. The quieter you are the worse this all looks. I'm praying "no news" is good news but I'm not really convinced this is the case here but please prove me wrong.

 

3 hours ago, Earl of Pembroke said:

Mr Leathers needs to break his radio silence. I had rather a lot of  less than charitable talk and speculation about LLC at Doncaster yesterday.

 

With all due respect to everyone - Steve has said there will be updates published here when he has them.  Random thoughts and speculation from all of us who know bu$$er all about the situation, what's happening and where things are going, really do not help in these circumstances.  All they do is serve to wind people up who then start to believe what started as assumption, guesswork or otherwise.

 

Just cut the guy some slack and let it be. You may not like it but it is the responsible, respectful and adult thing to do.  No disrespect to anyone but social media, forums and the web in general at great at whipping up the negative chatter.  Just because we want Steve to publish an update, does not necessarily mean there is an update to publish.  I have confidence in Steve that he will do his best - all previous history shows that he's not the kind of people to 'chuck in the towel' quickly when things don't go to plan.

 

We'll find out what's happening, when it happens, good, bad or indifferent.

[Earl of Pembroke]

11 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

 

With all due respect to everyone - Steve has said there will be updates published here when he has them.  Random thoughts and speculation from all of us who know bu$$er all about the situation, what's happening and where things are going, really do not help in these circumstances.  All they do is serve to wind people up who then start to believe what started as assumption, guesswork or otherwise.

 

Just cut the guy some slack and let it be. You may not like it but it is the responsible, respectful and adult thing to do.  No disrespect to anyone but social media, forums and the web in general at great at whipping up the negative chatter.  Just because we want Steve to publish an update, does not necessarily mean there is an update to publish.  I have confidence in Steve that he will do his best - all previous history shows that he's not the kind of people to 'chuck in the towel' quickly when things don't go to plan.

 

We'll find out what's happening, when it happens, good, bad or indifferent.

With even greater respect, what people want who have money at stake is their emails and telephone calls answered, even if it is no more than a holding reply with the promise of further information as soon as it is possible to disclose. This does not require a general announcement to the public.