Second Hand Coaches on Minor Railways

[Nick Holliday]

Within the topic on Eveleigh's etchings

Edwardian, on 30^th April 2018 – 10:59, said:

 

They (the Eveleigh etchings) make a nice little Great Eastern branch set, though.  With the new laser-cut card Stroudley 4-wheelers that have just become available, and with the Ratio GW 4-wheelers still in production, things are looking quite positive for the pre-Grouping or Light Railway BLT format!

 

Whilst I would not want to belittle the recent efforts by Eveleigh Creations and SkinnyLinny, I don’t really see that they are real game-changers, although they have made an impact on those relatively new to etched coaches and the pre-grouping or light railway genres.  It seems a little unfair to overlook the efforts of several current etched brass kit manufacturers, such as Roxey, Branchlines, Wizard, Mousa, London Road Models, Steam & Things, and Prickly Pear, especially as they provide complete kits, with no need to source other parts apart from wheels, couplings, paint and transfers, not to mention Worsley Works’ extensive range of etched sides.  There is also Chris Cox’s 5&9 range of white metal kits, primarily of early LBSC prototypes.

In addition, many modellers are Grumpy Elderly Persons, who have had, over the years, the opportunity to acquire suitable kits or etchings from moribund manufacturers, such as K’s, PK/Kemilway, Falcon/Jidenco and in particular the much-missed 4mm Pocket Money range from Jim McGeown of Connoisseur Models. If you visit his 7mm website you can see what you may have missed! He deliberately produced all three ex-NER 4 wheeled coaches that were bought by the North Sunderland Railway, and a range of 6 wheeled coaches based on S&DJR types, but selected because they were sufficiently generic to be form the basis of other companies’ stock, much as SkinnyLinny is proposing to achieve.

So, on a more positive note, I thought it might be interesting to go through the various minor, and not so minor, railways that acquired second-hand stock from other main line companies, to see where they came from, and perhaps to establish any patterns.  It must be said that the majority of such small companies started business with a small fleet of new built carriages from the major rolling stock manufacturers, using the investors’ money to make an initial impact, but subsequently had to resort to finding bargains, as receipts failed to meet the cost of new replacements or major repairs.  One common source of such stock were the lines that were carrying out extensive electrification of their services, such as the Metropolitan, District and Mersey Railways, around the turn of the previous century.

Not having a copy of Kidner’s Oakwood Press’s book on this subject, I propose to delve into my library to provide what information I can glean from that, and perhaps others might like to make contributions for their favourite line.  Unfortunately, often these sources are a bit shy on detail and photos of the rolling stock, and in many cases the best I can manage is the original line it came from and a simple type description, and a link to a precise model equivalent is not possible.

To kick things off, I was going to cover one obvious target and a couple of rather more unexpected candidates.

The Selsey Tramway

Initially provided with new coaches from Falcon and Hurst Nelson, which were rather exotic looking open balcony types on spindly bogies, they acquired a number of balconied 4 wheelers which had originally been acquired by the Lambourne Valley Railway and made redundant by the GWR after they took over the line.  These were put up for sale at Swindon in 1904 but only bought by Colonel Stephens five years later.

The next batch of purchases was of various more traditional 4 wheeled coaches bought from the SECR, but originally LCDR builds.  There seem to have been seven of them bought over a few years around 1918, full thirds, Full firsts and composite brakes. These coaches apparently introduced the concept of upholstery to the tramway, a change from the earlier wooden seats.

The next spending spree was in 1932, when two 6 wheeled coaches, a 5 compartment third and a 4 compartment second brake, again from the LCDR, were now bought from the Southern Railway.

It is interesting to note that, despite the good relationship between the two companies, no LBSCR coaches were acquired, although a number of old LBSCR goods wagons were bought, including opens, cattle and brake vans.

(Information taken from Laurie Cooksey’s The Selsey Tramway, WSP [drawings included])

The Barry Railway

This line was quite prosperous, and not really a minor line, but for some reason in 1916 it acquired three ten-coach trains of Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway 6 wheeled carriages, although 8 brake thirds were in the mix, with the others mainly full thirds, with a smattering of composites.  Presumably these had been released by the L&YR electrification schemes. Possibly the need for these was due to the opening of ordnance factories or similar war related schemes.

(Information from Mountford, The Barry Railway Oakwood Press [drawings included])

The Brecon and Merthyr Railway

Less prosperous than the BR, they started off with some neat new build four wheelers, including a natty saloon coach.  However, by1906 they were forced to buy three third-hand(!) ex Mersey Railway 4w coaches from the Manchester and Milford Railway, to go with six bought directly from the Mersey in 1903.

More second-hand stock arrived from the Metropolitan Railway and a couple more M&M/Mersey items. From 1910-1915 27 LSWR six-wheelers were acquired, together with 2 four-wheeled brake vans.  In all there were 8 LSWR full brakes.

The final phase of purchases was post-war, a dealer in Trentham supplying 2 Midland four wheel brakes, 8 MR thirds and 3 MR composites, these being 6-wheeled, and 3 feet shorter than the ex-LSWR stock.

(Information from Barrie, The Brecon & Merthyr Railway Oakwood Press)

 

[Edwardian]

Within the topic on Eveleigh's etchings

Edwardian, on 30^th April 2018 – 10:59, said:

 

They (the Eveleigh etchings) make a nice little Great Eastern branch set .... , things are looking quite positive for the Light Railway BLT format!

 

Whilst I would not want to belittle the recent efforts by Eveleigh Creations and SkinnyLinny, I don’t really see that they are real game-changers,

 

 

A number of short four-wheelers (2 and 3 compt. brakes, four-compt. 1sts and 5-compt. 3rds.) were sold by the Great Eastern  from 1900 on.  Later on one or two 6-wheel carriages and full brakes were sold.

 

Ex-GER carriages were operated by the following lines: East Kent, Isle of Wight Central, Kent & East Sussex, Lancashire Derbyshire & East Coast, Millwall Extension, North Sunderland, Shropshire & Montgomeryshire, South Shields Marsden & Whitburn Colliery, Stratford & Midland, Weston Clevedon & Portishead, Neath & Brecon, S. Wales Mineral.

 

The East Kent had a 4-wheel 4-compt. 1st, purchased c.1919

 

IWCR had six 4-wheel 5-compt. Thirds

 

K&ESR had:

 

- Two 4-wheel 2-compt. Brake Thirds (purchased 1901 and 1906)

 

- Two 4-wheel 3-compt.  Brake Thirds (purchased 1901 and 1906)

 

- Two 4-wheel 4-compt. 1sts (purchased 1901 and 1906)

 

LDECR had:

 

- 4-wheel 5-compt. Third (24') (purchased 1896)

 

- 4-wheel 2-compt. Brake Third  (21'8") (purchased 1896)

 

S&MR had an ex-K&ESR 3-compt.  Brake Third in 1938

 

South Shields had (1926-1938):

 

- Two 4-wheel 2-compt. Brake Thirds

 

-  4-wheel 5-compt. Third

 

 

South Wales Mineral had at least 7 ex-GER 4-wheelers

 

So there!

[Nearholmer]

Buy Kidner’s book ..... you can pick up copies very cheaply these days.

 

£5 or so very well spent.

[sir douglas]

North London on the Spurn Head rly, East Yorkshire

 

LSWR on the Bishops castle rly, near Shrewsbury

 

MS&LR ont he Easignwold rly, North Yorkshire

 

LSWR on the K&ESR

 

LT&SR on the Corringham rly , Essex

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

Edwardian

 

Thanks for that comprehensive list. Most of those lines are a bit outside my areas of interest, and I knew little or nothing about their rolling stock, and your information helps to fill in some gaps.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Nick Holliday

[CKPR]

I'm really just summarising the above posts and Kidner's excellent monograph on the topic, but the main pre-grouping companies that seemed to have been involved in selling on old 4w and 6W coaching stock were the Met. (due to electrification ?), the GER, NLR and the LSWR with the NER selling to minor lines within their own area.  The only other one-off large transfer of 4w coaching stock that I recall off the top of my head was ex-M&CR stock to the Nidd Nalley and this might have been after the grouping. 

[Nick Holliday]

Sir Douglas

Thanks for posting those photos; I'm not in a position to post any myself at the moment.

To add a little to them:

The Corringham Light Railway

This line, serving the Kynochtown explosives factory in Essex, started its passenger services in 1900 with two Kerr Stuart bogie open sided toast-rack coaches, more suited to working on the nearby(ish) Southend Pier.  A year later an LT&SR four wheel third was acquired, from the local line, and a further thre added in 1915, by which time they would have been owned by the Midland. It seesms that war traffic demands required further passenger stock, as around 8 Midland bogie coaches were acquired, being 1882/3 stock, with at least one luggage composite and one seven compartment third.  Passenger service seemed to stop around 1927.

(Information from Peter Kay's self-published book on the line)

The Easingwold Railway

The Easingwold Railway initially used two ancient 26ft four-wheeler coaches purchased from the NER. These were retired in 1903 and used as stores for goods traffic at Easingwold. They were replaced by three ex- North London Railway four-wheelers. Two were composites, and the third was a guard and luggage van. When retired in 1920, two of these coaches were also used as sheds at Easingwold.

These were replaced by two NER six wheelers painted brown with yellow lettering. These coaches had their central axles removed for running on the Easingwold Railway. Both coaches were replaced by a single 6 wheel coach during the 1930s. This coach was to a similar design, but the central axle was retained until about 1937.

This single ex-NER coach was retired in about 1946 when it was replaced an ex-CLC 6-wheel coach that was built to a GCR design. Passenger traffic ceased in 1948, and this last coach was used for parcels traffic until 1956 when it was replaced by a van borrowed from BR.

(Information copied from LNER Encyclopedia)

Presumably the coach in the photo is the ex-CLC/GCR one

The Derwent Railway

Not really intended as a passenger carrying line, nevertheless it started operating a service in 1913 with two ex‑NER six wheel coaches. These were replaced in 1924 by a pair of Ford petrol railcars.

(Information from the IRS website)

The North Sunderland Railway

Their initial stock in 1898 was five ex-Highland Railway rib-sided 4 wheel coaches, one of which was converted into a brake composite.

In 1911 an NER 4 wheel 5 compartment third was acquired, followed by a 4 wheel three compartment brake. After grouping another ex-NER vehicle was purchased, a 4 wheel saloon. The final acqusitions were three ex-GER 6 wheel 6 compartment thirds, two of which survived to the end of services in 1951, along with the saloon.

(Information obtained from LNER Encyclopedia)

[burgundy]

Two additional thoughts 

The West Lancashire Railway seemed to have a taste for second hand rolling stock from the Brighton and bought a batch of Craven vintage carriages (and locos). 

I believe that some early Brighton vehicles ended up on the Isle of Wight - but then again, I understand that the last really new rolling stock to arrive on the Isle of Wight was in 1882!

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Poggy1165]

I can quote a very obscure one. Trafford Park Estates originally operated a gas-powered tram system. (And no, I don't know how they connected the tram to the mains   )   Any road, round about 1905ish (you'll forgive me a year or three) they converted most of the system to electric trams, and eventually sold out to Manchester and Salford Corporations.

 

However, one bit, the line to Barton, was converted to train operation using steam engines (natch) and ex-CLC 4 wheel coaches which continued until about 1921, when buses were substituted (over this bit).

 

If anyone fancies modelling this, the CLC coaches can be had in 7mm scale from Alphagraphix. I suspect the service was principally used by workpersons going to the various factories in TP. However, in theory, anyone could use it. Whether TPE had the powers to operate such a service must be one of those obscure legal questions that I don't have the knowledge to answer.

 

I believe at least one CLC (or possibly MS&L, very similar design) 4 wheeler went to the K&ESR.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Poggy1165

[ian@stenochs]

The Girvan and Portpatrick Junction Railway bought a number of all third and composite carriages, brake vans and roofless cattlevans from the North London Railway. They also had three 4-4-0 tank locos from the same source for working across the 38 miles of wild South West Scottish moors between Stranraer and Girvan.

[Nearholmer]

Poggy

 

Not much different from gassing-up coach lighting, which was common at the time ..... all gunmetal or brass fittings, of course.

 

I have, though, got a copy of a patent for a seriously dangerous-looking device for gassing-up trams on the move, which I hope to goodness never made it into practical use.

 

There were enough gas trams in Europe to merit such inventiveness.

 

Kevin

[Compound2632]

The Brecon and Merthyr Railway

The final phase of purchases was post-war, a dealer in Trentham supplying 2 Midland four wheel brakes, 8 MR thirds and 3 MR composites, these being 6-wheeled, and 3 feet shorter than the ex-LSWR stock.

(Information from Barrie, The Brecon & Merthyr Railway Oakwood Press)

 

The Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Light Railway also acquired a number of Midland carriages - 25' 4-wheel brakes but also 40' bogie composites and 43' bogie thirds - details here. These were also bought through a dealer, but a little earlier - 1911. These carriages would all have been getting on for 30 years old at the time of purchase. There was also some goods stock of Midland origin.

[NCB]

Which of Kidner's books are we referring to?

 

Nigel

Edited June 10, 2018 by NCB

[davknigh]

The Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Light Railway also acquired a number of Midland carriages - 25' 4-wheel brakes but also 40' bogie composites and 43' bogie thirds - details here. These were also bought through a dealer, but a little earlier - 1911. These carriages would all have been getting on for 30 years old at the time of purchase. There was also some goods stock of Midland origin.

Would the bogie coaches have born any resemblance the Midland Bain suburban coaches available from Ratio?

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Moxy]

In response to NCB in post 13 - probably

Carriage Stock of Minor Standard Gauge Railways (Locomotion Papers) - R W Kidner ISBN 0853612277

HTH

 

Moxy

[Kelly]

Two additional thoughts 

The West Lancashire Railway seemed to have a taste for second hand rolling stock from the Brighton and bought a batch of Craven vintage carriages (and locos). 

I believe that some early Brighton vehicles ended up on the Isle of Wight - but then again, I understand that the last really new rolling stock to arrive on the Isle of Wight was in 1882!

Best wishes 

Eric

 

David Gould's books on lbscr and secr carriages details which got sent to the isle of Wight, which was a variety of bogie push pull stock iirc up until line cut backs and ex w&c stock got sent there (itself replaced by '38 stock).

[Compound2632]

Would the bogie coaches have born any resemblance the Midland Bain suburban coaches available from Ratio?

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

No. These are Clayton's arc-roofed carriages, with a rather different style of panelling and different compartment widths; 8'0" wide rather than 8'6" and on 8' wheelbase bogies rather than 10'. There are etched kits available for the 43' bogie third (51L/Wizard) and the 25' 4-wheel brake (can't remember), both of which were built in large numbers, but not, I think, the 40' bogie composites.

[Fat Controller]

The Llanelly and Mynydd Mawr bought 9 ex-Metropolitan four-wheel coaches in 1913; when Grouping occurred, these were shipped off to Swindon, most, if not all, on bogie bolsters. The railway did not officially carry passengers, the coaches being intended for miners' trains.

The near-by Burry Port and Gwendreath Valley had a selection of coaches prior to Grouping, including some ex-Metropolitan non-bogie 8-wheelers. Given some of the curves around Burry Port, these must have been popular with nearby residents.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Fat Controller

[Dava]

Alphagraphix have recently produced 5 or so etched brass kits for 7mm scale models of 4 & 6 wheel coaches which ran on the K&ESR and other Col. Stephens' railways, including MSLR, LCDR, LSWR, SECR, NLR. These are excellent value and he advertises in the RM each month.

[Nick Holliday]

David Gould's books on lbscr and secr carriages details which got sent to the isle of Wight, which was a variety of bogie push pull stock iirc up until line cut backs and ex w&c stock got sent there (itself replaced by '38 stock).

Isle of Wight

 

I thought I’d tackle all the Isle of Wight railways in one go, with all the information coming from Maycock and Reid, Isle of Wight Steam Passenger Rolling Stock, Oakwood Press.  With these, and other lines, I have ignored any stock movements after Grouping or Nationalisation when the minor company became subsumed within a larger organisation.  All these were merely movement of stock, with no purchases being involved, and in this case includes the various LBSC, LCDR, SECR and LSWR items that were shipped across the Solent by the Southern Railway.

 

The Isle of Wight Railway

 

Until 1882 the line had been buying new stock from Oldbury, albeit on the never-never, but in 1885 Oldbury offered the IWR 3 vehicles which they had supplied to the Golden Valley Railway in 1881.  They were 6 wheeled, with open balconies, which seem to have been popular with similar lines, and spent most of their time on the Bembridge branch.  In 1897/8 they acquired ten 4 wheel coaches, via a dealer, from the NLR, four of them 5 compartment third, the rest 4 compartment former firsts.

By 1912 the line was looking for more second-hand stock, and looked for suitable coaches from the LSWR and LBSCR, but nothing was suitable, so in 1914 they acquired 18 rigid eight-wheel coaches, mainly first class, from the Metropolitan Railway, made redundant by electrification.

 

The Isle of Wight Central Railway

 

One of this company’s constituents came to the party with 11 LNWR 4 wheelers, another a further 3 from the same line, dating back many years, retaining characteristics of the first “stage-coach” designs.  A third line contributed 3 early NLR coaches.

The newly merged company ordered two new bogie coaches in 1889, but shortly after purchased 4 carriages from the LBSCR, very early types pre-dating the familiar Stroudley designs.  After a rocky financial period, when passengers were advised to carry umbrellas when travelling, between 1898 and 1907 a total of 28 ex-LSWR coaches were bought, varying considerably in age, design and accommodation.

In 1907, after dabbling with a brand new steam railmotor, the board wanted a pull-push train, and eventually found an ex-Midland bogie coach, dating from 1876, 54 feet long on 6 wheel bogies and clerestory roofed.  This was converted for its new function in their Newport works, and later had its bogies replaced by 4 wheeled ones from Derby, and its clerestory roof removed to make it easier to handle in the works.

For a brief period in 1911, Colonel Stephens was the company’s engineer, and he managed to negotiate the purchase of 5 GER five compartment thirds, built perhaps in 1878 and a horsebox. War time traffic required additional third class accommodation, and many carriages were downgraded (they had only just abandoned second class travel).  Two of the IWR original four wheelers were bought as a temporary measure.

 

The Freshwater and Yarmouth Railway

 

This line was originally worked by the Isle of Wight Central Railway, but in 1912 the Board decided to work the line themselves. They managed to buy 7 4-wheel carriages from the Great Central, having been built for the MSLR in 1880 as four compartment stock.  They were altered to provide three thirds, two composites, a brake composite and a brake third.  Part of the divorce settlement was the need to buy some of the IWCR stock, which included 4 of the ex-LSWR coaches and another, possibly of NLR or Cowes and Newport Railway origin, the latter having purchased some new stock from Wright and Son in 1862 which looked almost identical to contemporary NLR designs. The only subsequent acquistion was an open sided 4w Drewry petrol railcar, which was actually used for passenger services on occasion, and could be hired for parties!

[Nick Holliday]

As an aside, whilst carrying out this research, I began to wonder how some of these stock movements would have been managed.  Many of these second-hand items seem to have been close to being condemned on their original lines, and I doubt if the companies involved in their transit would want them attached to their passenger trains, so I assume they would have been included in goods trains, or perhaps as a special train of their own, when the numbers warranted it.

It is a pity that there wasn’t a photographer on hand to record, say, the 5 Highland carriages making their stately progress southwards to the North Sunderland Railway, or the myriad of North London Railway superannuated stock being dispersed as far as Scotland and Yorkshire. Perhaps this might be an interesting cameo feature on a through layout.

Did the same system operate for new locos?  I know that some of the LBSC B4 express locos were moved from the builders in Scotland as a train-load, with their motion removed, but did some travel long distances under their own steam, or was there too much chance of hot-boxes or other faults with a newly-built loco?

[Mark Saunders]

As an aside, whilst carrying out this research, I began to wonder how some of these stock movements would have been managed.  Many of these second-hand items seem to have been close to being condemned on their original lines, and I doubt if the companies involved in their transit would want them attached to their passenger trains, so I assume they would have been included in goods trains, or perhaps as a special train of their own, when the numbers warranted it.

It is a pity that there wasn’t a photographer on hand to record, say, the 5 Highland carriages making their stately progress southwards to the North Sunderland Railway, or the myriad of North London Railway superannuated stock being dispersed as far as Scotland and Yorkshire. Perhaps this might be an interesting cameo feature on a through layout.

Did the same system operate for new locos?  I know that some of the LBSC B4 express locos were moved from the builders in Scotland as a train-load, with their motion removed, but did some travel long distances under their own steam, or was there too much chance of hot-boxes or other faults with a newly-built loco?

Have them examined and carded for One Journey Only and put them in a freight train!

 

Locomotives would be examined and probably moved dead in tow! Provision of suitably trained drivers and firemen would normally preclude them moving under their own power.

 

Mark Saunders

[wagonman]

No. These are Clayton's arc-roofed carriages, with a rather different style of panelling and different compartment widths; 8'0" wide rather than 8'6" and on 8' wheelbase bogies rather than 10'. There are etched kits available for the 43' bogie third (51L/Wizard) and the 25' 4-wheel brake (can't remember), both of which were built in large numbers, but not, I think, the 40' bogie composites.

 

 

I think Bill Bedford/Mousa did the 25ft PBVs. A selection of the exMR Clayton stock also turned up on the MSWJR where it fitted in rather well with the native MR-inspired stock – except that was electrically lit rather than gas. The GWR made short work of them after the Grouping though.

[doilum]

Alphagraphix have recently produced 5 or so etched brass kits for 7mm scale models of 4 & 6 wheel coaches which ran on the K&ESR and other Col. Stephens' railways, including MSLR, LCDR, LSWR, SECR, NLR. These are excellent value and he advertises in the RM each month.

A couple of years ago I knocked up a pair of 4 wheelers from spare Ian Kirk panels. Did silly money on a well known auction site.

Just an idea.

[Nearholmer]

Do BR MK1 on preserved railways count? Or, on theDerwent alley, which wasn’t preserved? Technically they must.

 

http://www.numberseventy.co.uk/Site/Derwent_Valley_.html

Edited June 11, 2018 by Nearholmer