Second Hand Coaches on Minor Railways

[sir douglas]

anybody know the parentage of the carriage (s)? on the Aberford railway near Leeds

Edited June 11, 2018 by sir douglas

[Compound2632]

The GWR made short work of them after the Grouping though.

 

Philistinism.

[Regularity]

Do BR MK1 on preserved railways count? Or, on theDerwent alley, which wasn’t preserved? Technically they must.

http://www.numberseventy.co.uk/Site/Derwent_Valley_.html

It wasn’t “grouped”, either...

[figworthy]

anybody know the parentage of the carriage (s)? on the Aberford railway near Leeds

 

I think it is the one (and only) carriage on the railway.

 

A quick look through the "The Aberford Railway and the History of the Garforth Collieries" suggests that is was an ex-Midland four wheel, four compartment carriage.  It ended it days as a bungalow (I think you used to be able to see it from the A1 when heading north past Aberford).

 

There is a foot note in the book which says that the resident of the carriage/bungalow remembered a Midland makers plate, but some enthusiasts maintain that it had a definite NER.look.

 

Adrian

[davknigh]

Another question, did the Midland 6 wheelers as modelled by Slater's (ex-WCJS) get sold off or were they mostly kept for for engineering department use?

 

Cheers,

 

David

Edited June 11, 2018 by davknigh

[ian@stenochs]

Another question, did the Midland 6 wheelers as modelled by Slater's (ex-WCJS) get sold off or were they mostly kept for for engineering department use?

 

Cheers,

 

David

Hi David,

 

They were Midland and Scotch Joint Stock later M&GSW and M&NB NOT WCJS which was LNWR & CR!

 

However to answer your question the redundant/replaced stock was distributed between the owning companies. I have pictures of MSJS 6 wheelers and bogie stock in G&SWR livery and use. Incidentally some of the 6 wheelers were built by the G&SWR at Kilmarnock, albeit to the Midland design. Probably the NB built some also and you could conceivably have Midland coach in LNER livery!

 

Ian.

[Edwardian]

ex-LNWR at Brampton Staith

[DOCJACOB]

You can in deed have Midland style coaches in LNER brown. The NB Study Group have extensive list of what happened to the stock when M+NB was dispersed.

 

I do have an image I cant post for copyright of exactly this case.

 

An ex M+NB coach was used as the TOTE office at Hull KR rugby league ground for a number of years and when redeveloped it was rescued (for bits) by Midland Railway at Butterly

 

Under the layers painted faux teak.

[Regularity]

Another question, did the Midland 6 wheelers as modelled by Slater's (ex-WCJS) get sold off or were they mostly kept for for engineering department use?

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

The SMJR bought some six wheelers and some 40' and 43' bogie coaches.

[davknigh]

Hi David,

They were Midland and Scotch Joint Stock later M&GSW and M&NB NOT WCJS which was LNWR & CR!

However to answer your question the redundant/replaced stock was distributed between the owning companies. I have pictures of MSJS 6 wheelers and bogie stock in G&SWR livery and use. Incidentally some of the 6 wheelers were built by the G&SWR at Kilmarnock, albeit to the Midland design. Probably the NB built some also and you could conceivably have Midland coach in LNER livery!

Ian.

Thanks Ian, I stand corrected. Any idea when the coaches would have become surplus to requirements?

 

Cheers,

 

David

[wagonman]

Thanks Ian, I stand corrected. Any idea when the coaches would have become surplus to requirements?

 

Cheers,

 

David

 

 

The MR bogie stock was sold off at the end of the Edwardian period, or thereabouts, by which time it was about 28 years old on average:

 

     MSWJR  1909-1917

     S&MR     1910

     SMJR      1911

[wagonman]

ex-LNWR at Brampton Staith

 

Two out of their three exLNWR coaches – in case anyone was wondering. The missing one is a four compartment 3rd.

[Poggy1165]

The Wrexham, Mold and Connahs Quay Railway bought a whole load of ancient LNWR 4 wheel coaches. The odd photo exists, but I'm not sure if there's any complete data of exactly what they were. From what I can gather the GCR scrapped them as worthless when they took over in 1905. (Best source is the J.I.C. Boyd book on the WM&CQR, but don't expect much detail.) They must have been pretty awful as the GC had quite a bit of ancient stock of its own that it was not ashamed to use - the fancy Robinson stock for the principal expresses and London suburbans were the exception rather than the rule, certainly until quite late on, and well into LNER days in some areas.

 

Boyd makes the point that these coaches were no worse than some used locally on the LNWR itself. This may have been true when they were bought, but by 1905?

 

That other constituent of the GCR, the LDEC, bought a number of GER 4 wheel coaches, mostly 3rds but with a couple of brakes. These were intended for use in miners' trains, and exactly when they were withdrawn is not clear. (The GC certainly had some distinctly tatty stock for the use of Yorkshire miners right to its end, from what I can gather, but whether these were included among them I am not sure.)

[Edwardian]

Two out of their three exLNWR coaches – in case anyone was wondering. The missing one is a four compartment 3rd.

[Compound2632]

The date at which the LNW started painting upper panels white has been the subject of some debate. Does anyone know when these carriages were sold on? Of course they may have been repainted but not necessarily.

[Edwardian]

The date at which the LNW started painting upper panels white has been the subject of some debate. Does anyone know when these carriages were sold on? Of course they may have been repainted but not necessarily.

 

Would have been acquired, IIRC, c.1880.

 

I'll have to check to be sure.

[Penlan]

The date at which the LNW started painting upper panels white has been the subject of some debate. 

In the Kew Records, Rail 410/62, P 461 - 'Reports to the Board', 'Committee on Carriage Building', Dated 17/12/1868.

'...... That 1st, 2nd and Compo's to be painted with dark Claret body and White upper panels, the same as the existing (from 1863) WCJS coaches.  3rd class where to remain Green.  Snake pattern Commode handles to be introduced.   

Further on in this lengthy meeting Mr Bore suggested the Horse and Carriage Trucks should be painted in a similar manner (Claret & White), resolved no change.  Around this time, 1868 - 1869, there is plenty of discussion re. Smokers Compts, signing etc.,  amongst many other things.

Prior to the above re. Claret & White, the coaches were variously Green, Lake and Drab or Black upper panels.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Penlan

[Penlan]

Does anyone know when these carriages were sold on? Of course they may have been repainted but not necessarily.

Hidden away in the various Reports etc., in Kew 410/....... there is sparodic mention of the recipients of sold on stock.  

I'm not aware however of anyone who has trawled through all those records and made comprehensive notes on them.

Granted the late Thomas Parsons made a lot of notes on all matter of things, but these where the items that caught his eye.   It's some 40 years since I trawled through some of those records - long before sensible and easy copying methods, so my notes are sparse.

In the L&NWRSociety, there is one member who may know, but it's really getting down to the 1% of 1% of 1% of very, very little detail of the early history of LNWR rolling stock..

Edited June 22, 2018 by Penlan

[Compound2632]

In the Kew Records, Rail 410/62, P 461 - 'Reports to the Board', 'Committee on Carriage Building', Dated 17/12/1868.

'...... That 1st, 2nd and Compo's to be painted with dark Claret body and White upper panels, the same as the existing (from 1863) WCJS coaches.  3rd class where to remain Green.  Snake pattern Commode handles to be introduced.   

Further on in this lengthy meeting Mr Bore suggested the Horse and Carriage Trucks should be painted in a similar manner (Claret & White), resolved no change.  Around this time, 1868 - 1869, there is plenty of discussion re. Smokers Compts, signing etc.,  amongst many other things.

Prior to the above re. Claret & White, the coaches were variously Green, Lake and Drab or Black upper panels.

 

On the other hand, there is this well-known photograph of Sutton Coldfield station, reputedly of the opening day in 1862 but certainly before the station buildings were extended to include refreshment rooms, which work was done by 1868. These carriages clearly have white upper panels. 

[Penlan]

On the other hand, there is this well-known photograph of Sutton Coldfield station, reputedly of the opening day in 1862 but certainly before the station buildings were extended to include refreshment rooms, which work was done by 1868. These carriages clearly have white upper panels. 

It's a b*gger, isn't it, your correct, but (trying to claw back some credibility    ) was that work started in 1868, or completed.

And does that mean the official minute books etc., are incorrect.  

I will see if I have any references in the Traffic Committee Minutes - On Sunday, because there's Carnival time 'Way down West' this weekend.

[Compound2632]

Completed by or before 1868. The conclusion the authors of LNWR Liveries were forced to is that the minute merely confirms existing practice. Even so there are problems, as even though the set of carriages in the Sutton Coldfield picture look nice and shiny and recently out-shopped, the older carriage at the end also clearly has white upper panels. An instance of the archaeological and written records being at odds.

 

Ref. R.M. Lea, Steaming up to Sutton (Westwood Press, 1984).

Edited June 22, 2018 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

Interesting that the authors reached that conclusion, it being the one that I was about to suggest.

 

There seems to be a widespread belief that The Board controls every jot and comma of everything that happens on a railway, and that simply doesn’t hold water for anything bigger than a very tiny railway, for solid practical reasons ...... the place would tie itself in knots if the board couldn’t or wouldn’t delegate to the executive officers, and they in turn to their staffs. My gut feeling is that diverse practise probably emerged, and the board decided that made the place look untidy and ill-run, so mandated universal use of what it viewed as the best of current practises. Either that, or in some yet-to-be-found earlier minute, they had authorised or requested a trial of the white panels, and the known minute is them deciding that the trial had succeeded. White upper panels probably looked very modern at the time.

 

All that having been said, Boards do get very exercised by livery, because (a) it is the public face, and (b) everyone can hold an opinion on the topic, yet there is no absolute right answer.

[Hando]

On 11/06/2018 at 17:52, sir douglas said:

anybody know the parentage of the carriage (s)? on the Aberford railway near Leeds

I know it's been three years & you probably know by now...

 

 

...but It's a Midland composite

[Compound2632]

On 15/01/2021 at 20:45, Hando said:

I know it's been three years & you probably know by now...

 

 

...but It's a Midland composite

 

... of considerable antiquity. It could be one of the 150 24 ft composites built by Metropolitan RC&W Co. in 1863/4. It's generally similar to the third of 1865 at the Midland Railway Centre, Butterley. Any idea of the date of the Aberford photos?

[crackedmember]

I have just seen this thread.  One Railway I could not see in the above

 

 

Colne Valley and Halstead Railway

 

3 District Railway carriages purchased in 1903.  These were half of the Joint experimental  Metropitan and District Electric Train of 1900.

 

 

Very modern and comfortable, compared to most minor railways.